Myths...and the ultimate truth.

[Wretch]

Before we leave Kobe.

The Lakers had the assets to trade for him and get Shaq. They had the reputation to make premiere free agents want to come. Everybody always talk about how we can't develop that kind of reputation and the question is WHY NOT??? We have to try.

This is not going to happen. We are not the Lakers, we don't have that kind of glamour, history, locale, MONEY...and we're not shooting for that. We're shooting for something in between the Spurs and the Pistons, hoping for a marquee free agent to take pity on us...fueled by high level analyitics.

We should rebuild, but...I can only say that so many times. Feels similar to when I was complaining about those meaningless wins in 2004 and when I was telling people Chris Paul was not "too short." Not trying to be right, but unless we get a difference maker...we're going to be having this conversation in 4 years...and you know it.

[Plainview1981]

We're shooting for something in between the Spurs and the Pistons, hoping for a marquee free agent to take pity on us...fueled by high level analyitics.

Damn, I was going to bring this up and didn't get around to it. Glad you did.

[DJlaysitup]

Since the salary floor is 90% of the CBA, what does tanking look like now that you HAVE to spend the money, I wonder?

That's a very good point Doc (and why I'm kinda glad we aren't tanking and changed my avatar back).

To tank nowadays I think a team has to be nearly shameless...especially in a year when the lottery looks stocked for the next draft.

It would have stunk if we had made a half-assed, ameteurish attempt at tanking, only to get out-tanked by Philly/Celtics/etc.

This will be a very interesting season to watch since if there really are 5 potential all-stars...that means a bottom 3 record guarrantees you one of them. It's not like one of the years where there are only 1 or 2 potential high impact players.

Edited July 6, 2013 by DJlaysitup

[Wretch]

There's a 90% of cap salary floor now (if I'm not mistaken.) Gotta add to it somehow. I guess you could sign nothing but scrubs to 1-year-deals? The 2-year deals have been pretty smart in that regard.

...but we're not signing scrubs Dr. Z.

If that were the case, we wouldn't go after them at all. The point is to make the playoffs, not fill out the roster. The point is to add serviceable parts and stay competitive in small windows and I guess fish in free agency, hope we luck up on a Harden, or have some stupid team like Toronto toss us a weirdly protected lottery pick.

All the while accomplishing nothing but 1st/2nd round exits.

EDIT for clarity: We're not signing scrubs in an attempt to rebuild. That's like saying we signed scrubs last year to evaluate Josh Smith. Ferry built a team around Smoove to see what it could do...but the point all along was to make the playoffs. It's less about the salary or lack of talent and more about winning (1st round winning that is).

Edited July 6, 2013 by Wretch

[Diesel]

Point #1.... All I want is to FISH for talent in the upper part of the draft. That's where the big fish are. If you want a big fish, you have to get your ass over to that side of the pond. It's pretty simple. The problem is that you're associating my point of view with the people who say "BE AS BAD AS POSSIBLE AND GET WIGGINS!!!!!!" I don't believe that will work. I never have. I just believe that you have to cast your fishing lines over there and get SOMETHING...and either use it or trade it like EVERYBODY else has.

Point #2... Nobody cares about defensive substitutions, hard workers, smart basketball, 50 win seasons, consecutive playoff appearances...nobody but US. We have had every drop of that in the Babcock era and we're still a laughingstock. We are still shunned. Winning the right way is about nothing but one word...WIN. Get out of the 2nd round...WIN.

Everything else you're talking about is pretty much moral victories and medals for participation. I don't see Ferry changing that by continuing the treadmill.

Point #3... I would love to have been in the ECFs or Finals like Barkley, Malone, Durant, or Stockton. Your entire point here is invalid.

Now, I'm not in disagreement about the big fish. And I'm glad that you're not myopic in how to get to them. I think it's just as easy to develop some talent and trade for big fish than it is to hope to be lucky. It's just a smarter game.

To your second point. We were always incomplete and we were never a team that would be willing to improve at the risk of losing our favorites (until it was too late). We could have won with Dominique. However, we mad damning trades that killed us. Trading for guys like Norman and that russian dude... KILLED US in our prime. You can even say signing Speedy and Terrell Brandon helped to kill us. The one thing I'm looking for is a good evaluator of talent. Winning is not about getting a lottery pick. Each year, the bobcat shows everybody how to do it wrong. Winning is about being a good evaluator of talent and building with a plan. These are two things that Ferry represents. I don't know much about analytics, but I'm willing to give him time to see what we can do.

Those ECF and WCF teams you spoke of... they were BUILT... We have to build our team too. So we didn't get Paul or Dwight... SO what do we through up our hands and stop building?? That is ridiculous. Some Hawks fans need to get out of the damn welfare line and think about an asset based approach to building a franchise.

[Plainview1981]

Or we could hope that Al really does turn into a Karl Malone under the new coaching staff. A monstrous season by him could change someones mind, but I think he has pretty much maxed out.

[Diesel]

This is not going to happen. We are not the Lakers, we don't have that kind of glamour, history, locale, MONEY...and we're not shooting for that. We're shooting for something in between the Spurs and the Pistons, hoping for a marquee free agent to take pity on us...fueled by high level analyitics.

We should rebuild, but...I can only say that so many times. Feels similar to when I was complaining about those meaningless wins in 2004 and when I was telling people Chris Paul was not "too short." Not trying to be right, but unless we get a difference maker...we're going to be having this conversation in 4 years...and you know it.

If it turns out that this is true then I'm with you.. but right now, it's too early to proclaim that we're trying to keep the status quo... IF that was so, Smoove would be back. If that was so, we'd go back to our bad design and we'd be overpaying for play that's not going to get us anywhere. However, I don't think that's the case.

[TheDude]

Since the salary floor is 90% of the CBA, what does tanking look like now that you HAVE to spend the money, I wonder?

We should bring in Darko, Adam Morrison and Kwame Brown -- top 3 draft picks, all of 'em.

Don't forget Marvin Williams.

[Wretch]

Now, I'm not in disagreement about the big fish. And I'm glad that you're not myopic in how to get to them. I think it's just as easy to develop some talent and trade for big fish than it is to hope to be lucky. It's just a smarter game.

To your second point. We were always incomplete and we were never a team that would be willing to improve at the risk of losing our favorites (until it was too late). We could have won with Dominique. However, we mad damning trades that killed us. Trading for guys like Norman and that russian dude... KILLED US in our prime. You can even say signing Speedy and Terrell Brandon helped to kill us. The one thing I'm looking for is a good evaluator of talent. Winning is not about getting a lottery pick. Each year, the bobcat shows everybody how to do it wrong. Winning is about being a good evaluator of talent and building with a plan. These are two things that Ferry represents. I don't know much about analytics, but I'm willing to give him time to see what we can do.

Those ECF and WCF teams you spoke of... they were BUILT... We have to build our team too. So we didn't get Paul or Dwight... SO what do we through up our hands and stop building?? That is ridiculous. Some Hawks fans need to get out of the damn welfare line and think about an asset based approach to building a franchise.

I think you guys are looking right past the immediate danger of being a treadmill team. Regardless of having seen it all these years. I'm not giving him a chance because I know what he's doing and I'm 99% sure of where it will lead.

[plskeepbibby]

I think you guys are looking right past the immediate danger of being a treadmill team. Regardless of having seen it all these years. I'm not giving him a chance because I know what he's doing and I'm 99% sure of where it will lead.

I'm confused, you're putting all blame on Danny Ferry???

[Wretch]

If it turns out that this is true then I'm with you.. but right now, it's too early to proclaim that we're trying to keep the status quo... IF that was so, Smoove would be back. If that was so, we'd go back to our bad design and we'd be overpaying for play that's not going to get us anywhere. However, I don't think that's the case.

Keeping the status quo is not really about the same players so much as it is the same philosophy...and we still have the same players from last year minus Smoove.

[taz]

There's no danger of being a treadmill team. We won't get a top three pick cause the lottery is clearly rigged against ATL

[drzachary]

I'm not worried about being a treadmill team. Hopping on the treadmill is a good way to go from being a cellar-dwelling fatass like me to being in actual contending health/shape.

[Wretch]

I'm confused, you're putting all blame on Danny Ferry???

Yes.

I don't like what he's doing and I'm not afraid to say it. To me, he seems like nothing more than an extension of the ASG...only they realized they were not smart enough to pull off their "middle of the pack" plan. So they brought in a smarter guy that shares their vision for a team that can perpetually compete, while saving money.

...and hope for a big fish free agent the way lottery teams hope for a Kevin Durant.

I'm saying we just need to rebuild. Plain and simple. Stop worrying about the wins and just rebuild it. Time will tell the ultimate truth, but I am DONE with Danny Ferry.

[DrReality]

We as fans need your passion. Bring it on

[taz]

If you like tanking this year go root for Boston Orlando Toronto Detroit LA Sacramento Philly Utah Cleveland etcHey that's alot of teams tanking wouldn't that do even more to make you think it's a bad idea to try and do that this season

[Diesel]

I think you guys are looking right past the immediate danger of being a treadmill team. Regardless of having seen it all these years. I'm not giving him a chance because I know what he's doing and I'm 99% sure of where it will lead.

Well let's see.

We try for the two biggest FAs in this years FA class. I mean we go all out.. We make sure that we have the salary cap to sign both of them outright. We make sure that we draft first rounders that can be stashed overseas so that we don't have to pay them right away. Financially, we make ourselves into a blank slate with two players (AL and LOU) who are potential allstar who have cheap contracts still here.

Then we lose out on both of them so we start to get the next tier of Free agents and sign them to short deals.

And from that, you say... TREADMILL?

We are treadmill in the sense that Ferry has put us in a position to be able to trade our way to capspace at any time so that we can try to get any FA we want at any time? Seems also like Ferry is creating a work hard for your pay system. There are no fat cats with 5 yrs deals on our team who don't have to do anything but exist and they get paid. Everybody is on a very tradeable 2 year deal.

So I guess treadmill must mean that these guys are going to do this FAcy thing all over next year until we get a FA who will come and make us better?

I can live with that.

[plskeepbibby]

Yes. I don't like what he's doing and I'm not afraid to say it. To me, he seems like nothing more than an extension of the ASG...only they realized they were not smart enough to pull off their "middle of the pack" plan. So they brought in a smarter guy that shares their vision for a team that can perpetually compete, while saving money. ...and hope for a big fish free agent the way lottery teams hope for a Kevin Durant. I'm saying we just need to rebuild. Plain and simple. Stop worrying about the wins and just rebuild it. Time will tell the ultimate truth, but I am DONE with Danny Ferry.

Aren't most GM's extension of ownership??You cannot blame Danny Ferry without first blaming ownership... We will continue to pay for what Billy Knight did to this franchise for many years to come...

[taz]

Settling would be resigning josh smith btw

[Wretch]

Well let's see.

We try for the two biggest FAs in this years FA class. I mean we go all out.. We make sure that we have the salary cap to sign both of them outright. We make sure that we draft first rounders that can be stashed overseas so that we don't have to pay them right away. Financially, we make ourselves into a blank slate with two players (AL and LOU) who are potential allstar who have cheap contracts still here.

Then we lose out on both of them so we start to get the next tier of Free agents and sign them to short deals.

And from that, you say... TREADMILL?

We are treadmill in the sense that Ferry has put us in a position to be able to trade our way to capspace at any time so that we can try to get any FA we want at any time? Seems also like Ferry is creating a work hard for your pay system. There are no fat cats with 5 yrs deals on our team who don't have to do anything but exist and they get paid. Everybody is on a very tradeable 2 year deal.

So I guess treadmill must mean that these guys are going to do this FAcy thing all over next year until we get a FA who will come and make us better?

I can live with that.

Don't forget Korver and I'm sure Milsap will make up for something we're losing in ZaZa or Ivan.

You can say going after CP3 and Howard is a good thing, but WHO DOESN'T do that. This is the same as Billy Knight selecting the no brainer pick Josh Smith. People praised him for that too when I said, "It's really a no brainer." People also praised him for clearing the slate when I said, "He didn't do anything but get rid of everybody."

The 2 year deal thing is not about being flexible with salary so much as it is about keeping small windows of competitiveness open. I don't have a problem with the small deals, I take issue with trying to keep this team in the wins....just for the sake of winning. We've already done that.