Myths...and the ultimate truth.

[Plainview1981]

And how long did it take PP and Dirk from when they were drafted to win the championhip?

What is your point?

[Jody23]

I'm not going to look for the exact quote, but I do remember Ferry saying recently that "talent wins". But he must have been delirious because he clearly doesn't understand that so I'll just ignore that fact.

[Wretch]

You forgot Myth #6: Tanking works.

Name the contenders/champions that didn't acquire a star through the lottery or through trading a lottery asset.

It's not about "tanking" it's about getting off the treadmill.

[Wretch]

And how long did it take PP and Dirk from when they were drafted to win the championhip?

...and that matters?

[Plainview1981]

...and that matters?

I don't know what his point is... In most cases the draft plays a key part in a championship team. With just about everyone other than Detroit and the Lakers. Even in the Lakers case they got Kobe in the draft.

[Wretch]

So we just saw Ferry pursue Dwight Howard until Howard said no and he had every intention of pursuing Paul too before he was told no by Paul too. And that says to everyone that Ferry doesn't understand that elite talent win in this league? Just because he moved and signed a couple of role players to two yr contracts. NOT FOUR, BUT TWO YR DEALS. From all that, we get that he doesn't understand elite talent is needed to win? Okay.

Didn't say he doesn't understand it. Just that he doesn't understand that running on this "winning" treadmill is going to keep us stuck in the middle of the pack.

[Wretch]

I don't know what his point is... In most cases the draft plays a key part in a championship team. With just about everyone other than Detroit and the Lakers. Even in the Lakers case they got Kobe in the draft.

Not only that, but these teams competed for YEARS and had hope in these young studs for YEARS. They saw the ECF's, they saw the finals, and they had belief that they had a shot. It's not just about WINING IT ALL every year. It's about being able to compete with the big boys. Something we have pretty much NEVER known.

What kills me is that all you people HATE the ASG...but they've brought in a GM who shares their same VISION.

Excuse me...APPEARS TO share their same vision.

[Plainview1981]

If we had the center piece I would be more open to his strategy and it probably would work if we had that player. If Ferry proves me wrong I'll admit it. I believe Ferry made his plea to Dwight in an effective manner. Now he could at least tank a year if this draft is as deep as people are saying. Last year was basically a throw away year because of his way of doing things. That can probably slide though since this draft appeared to be so weak.

Edited July 6, 2013 by Hotlanta1981

[drzachary]

Name the contenders/champions that didn't acquire a star through the lottery or through trading a lottery asset.

It's not about "tanking" it's about getting off the treadmill.

Name the teams that intentionally got as bad as possible, then later won a championship.

Your Paul George example is not exactly a pro-tanking one. The nine guys picked in front of him haven't done squat. Paul George is a good example of 'maybe if the ping pong balls fall your way, and maybe if you correctly evaluated a prospect, maybe he will work out for you' (leaving aside the 'maybe Paul George will leave the Pacers' question since he's still on his rookie deal, IIRC.)

(Edit: I *do* think tanking worked before the lottery, and I think the lottery did a good job of putting an end to tanking as viable.)

Edited July 6, 2013 by drzachary

[Diesel]

On your first point... Paul George was a #10 pick. Dude....you just invalidated everything about using the Pacers. Where do they go without Paul George? He was a LOTTERY pick. If you're saying the Pacers didn't "intentionally" lose...then you're talking semantics. They drafted a guy out of the lottery. You don't get there unless you miss the playoffs. Ferry and this ownership group is not about to miss the playoffs.

On your second point... The fans don't care about "the right way" of doing things. We've been winning for years. We've been doing what you guys are talking about for years. It hasn't changed the perception by the fans, media, or the players. The right way of doing things means one thing - GET OUT OF THE SECOND ROUND AND CONTEND. You don't do that without elite talent. you don't get elite talent by being a treadmill team and filing up your roster with...C-list players.

On your third point... I don't even know how to approach that. You just rattled of a list of names that we can only DREAM about in here. Of course they haven't won anything, but you get somebody like that...and YOU BUILD AROUND THEM, ***WISELY***, and you can contend. Conversely, how many of those kinds of players have we had since Nique?

On your last point... I doubt we will make it that far. We are doing what we always have, with less talent, expecting different results. If we make it that far...it will be hard to improve because we won't have anything that anybody really wants - and if we trade a core part of it, we will take a step back. But you'll have to wake me when this actually happens because I just don't see it. Not like this.

You are also assuming that if we draft a young stud that we can't keep him and we can't build a talented team around him...yet you have all this confidence in Danny Ferry to do the same thing with scraps and late 1st rounders...?

#10 is a late lottery pick... We can make the late lottery AS is so what's your complaint??

In fact, we've had the #10 pick before:

Remember Jason Terry and Acie Law.. they were 10 picks. It's not about the pick, its about who you pick. Its about the plan.

You said: "The fans don't care about "the right way" of doing things. We've been winning for years." Let's address this. We've been winning with a team with NO true C and 4 guys who were between 6'7" and 6'10 and had similar skillsets. We have been winning without a low post game to speak of. Point is that there is a difference beween winning and winning "the right way". Winning the right thing means putting players in their natural positions. Winning the right way means getting a coach who will not shy away from benching a player for f---ing up on the court. Winning the right way means developing a code and an Identity. One thing you know about Indiana who was nothing is that they are a strong defensive, physical team. What are we? We have been a hodgepoge of whatever we can get from the lottery that was long and athletic. We plugged in players where we could fit them and not based on their skillset. It was not right.

You said: " you get somebody like that...and YOU BUILD AROUND THEM, ***WISELY***, and you can contend. " So you think that all the GM and coaches who had these superstars were DUMB as doorknobs? You think there was never a plan to build around Karl Malone and John Stockton or maybe you're saying Jerry Sloan sucks. Maybe you think that Barkley in Philly didn't have the right GM or Barkley in Phoenix, or Barkley in Houston??? Sometimes, Talent is not enough. Sometimes, you can have the best coaching and still lose. Popp is a much better coach than Spolstra. The thing is that you have to put yourselves in positions to be competitive and you can't be the type to depend wholly on the draft. The Pelicans, Bobcats, and Wizards can tell you right now that the draft doesn't always give you a winning team. And even when it gives you an elite talent, there's no guarantee that they will be around to help you compete.

Lastly, none of us have a crystal ball. None of us knows the mind of Ferry. Before we predict doom and gloom, let's see where he goes. For god's sake, we have never seen Bud coach a game. Prudence and Patience is required.

[TheDude]

Lebron was a high draft pick.. But his championship wasn't with the team that drafted him. Neither Garnett, nor Ray Allen, Pau Gasol, Predator, Wade WAS drafted by his championship team but only got a ring because Shaq was brought in as a free agent and then Lebron. Same thing with Pierce ala Garnett/Allen.

Other players were drafted by a different team but immediately traded to another team, the team we think of them as being drafted by. Kobe drafted by Charlotte, immediately traded to Lakers. Rondo drafted by Phoenix, immediately traded to Boston.

The Spurs didn't tank to get Duncan, their main player got hurt. They got lucky.

The point is that it's all fluid. Teams have been getting big talent in various ways. We couldn't get a free agent because we are perceived as not just a team that doesn't win it all, but also we haven't had an ownership that seemed like they cared about winning or more importantly, brought a winning attitude to the team. So you don't turn that around by tanking.

Let's get players who would compliment a star who work hard and play the right way. Then we can be a team that trades to get one of those lotto pick players, or has the system that attracts big name free agents. Yeah I think that Millsap is redundant and not sure how he's going to fit honestly, but at least I know we are trying to change the culture here.

PS - changed my screen name from DocHawk because well, I'm not a doctor.

[Diesel]

I don't know what his point is... In most cases the draft plays a key part in a championship team. With just about everyone other than Detroit and the Lakers. Even in the Lakers case they got Kobe in the draft.

Nope... they traded for Kobe.

[Jody23]

From your post:"Elite talent wins. This is what people like Ferry, Gearon, and "anti-tank" people can't wrap their minds around. Elite talent is what makes a difference. Teams build around those kinds of players and those kinds of teams attract the best free agents."I interpreted that as you saying Ferry doesn't get the importance of elite talent. If that wasn't your intent then my bad. Considering the circumstance, I don't know what else people expect Ferry to do. He HAS to sign players to fill out the roster. I'm willing to wait and see what else he does before I conclude that he's intent on keeping the Hawks as a "treadmill" team.

Edited July 6, 2013 by Jody23

[Plainview1981]

Nope... they traded for Kobe.

Yeah, they traded for the pick if I'm not mistaken.

But it doesn't change the fact that Dallas, Miami and Boston already had a center piece when they build their team through FA. We don't have that player. Al Horford is not that player.

[Wretch]

#10 is a late lottery pick... We can make the late lottery AS is so what's your complaint??

In fact, we've had the #10 pick before:

Remember Jason Terry and Acie Law.. they were 10 picks. It's not about the pick, its about who you pick. Its about the plan.

You said: "The fans don't care about "the right way" of doing things. We've been winning for years." Let's address this. We've been winning with a team with NO true C and 4 guys who were between 6'7" and 6'10 and had similar skillsets. We have been winning without a low post game to speak of. Point is that there is a difference beween winning and winning "the right way". Winning the right thing means putting players in their natural positions. Winning the right way means getting a coach who will not shy away from benching a player for f---ing up on the court. Winning the right way means developing a code and an Identity. One thing you know about Indiana who was nothing is that they are a strong defensive, physical team. What are we? We have been a hodgepoge of whatever we can get from the lottery that was long and athletic. We plugged in players where we could fit them and not based on their skillset. It was not right.

You said: " you get somebody like that...and YOU BUILD AROUND THEM, ***WISELY***, and you can contend. " So you think that all the GM and coaches who had these superstars were DUMB as doorknobs? You think there was never a plan to build around Karl Malone and John Stockton or maybe you're saying Jerry Sloan sucks. Maybe you think that Barkley in Philly didn't have the right GM or Barkley in Phoenix, or Barkley in Houston??? Sometimes, Talent is not enough. Sometimes, you can have the best coaching and still lose. Popp is a much better coach than Spolstra. The thing is that you have to put yourselves in positions to be competitive and you can't be the type to depend wholly on the draft. The Pelicans, Bobcats, and Wizards can tell you right now that the draft doesn't always give you a winning team. And even when it gives you an elite talent, there's no guarantee that they will be around to help you compete.

Lastly, none of us have a crystal ball. None of us knows the mind of Ferry. Before we predict doom and gloom, let's see where he goes. For god's sake, we have never seen Bud coach a game. Prudence and Patience is required.

Point #1.... All I want is to FISH for talent in the upper part of the draft. That's where the big fish are. If you want a big fish, you have to get your ass over to that side of the pond. It's pretty simple. The problem is that you're associating my point of view with the people who say "BE AS BAD AS POSSIBLE AND GET WIGGINS!!!!!!" I don't believe that will work. I never have. I just believe that you have to cast your fishing lines over there and get SOMETHING...and either use it or trade it like EVERYBODY else has.

Point #2... Nobody cares about defensive substitutions, hard workers, smart basketball, 50 win seasons, consecutive playoff appearances...nobody but US. We have had every drop of that in the Babcock era and we're still a laughingstock. We are still shunned. Winning the right way is about nothing but one word...WIN. Get out of the 2nd round...WIN.

Everything else you're talking about is pretty much moral victories and medals for participation. I don't see Ferry changing that by continuing the treadmill.

Point #3... I would love to have been in the ECFs or Finals like Barkley, Malone, Durant, or Stockton. Your entire point here is invalid.

[drzachary]

Since the salary floor is 90% of the CBA, what does tanking look like now that you HAVE to spend the money, I wonder?

We should bring in Darko, Adam Morrison and Kwame Brown -- top 3 draft picks, all of 'em.

[Plainview1981]

In the end, the people that actually want a high draft pick will have to hope this team underachieves. The Bobcats got Jefferson and that will probably make them a little better. Chicago will be healthy again. The Nets are even stronger.

[Diesel]

Yeah, they traded for the pick if I'm not mistaken.

But it doesn't change the fact that Dallas, Miami and Boston already had a center piece when they build their team through FA. We don't have that player. Al Horford is not that player.

Before we leave Kobe.

The Lakers had the assets to trade for him and get Shaq. They had the reputation to make premiere free agents want to come. Everybody always talk about how we can't develop that kind of reputation and the question is WHY NOT??? We have to try.

[Wretch]

From your post:"Elite talent wins. This is what people like Ferry, Gearon, and "anti-tank" people can't wrap their minds around. Elite talent is what makes a difference. Teams build around those kinds of players and those kinds of teams attract the best free agents."I interpreted that as you saying Ferry doesn't get the importance of elite talent. If that wasn't your intent then my bad. Considering the circumstance, I don't know what else people expect Ferry to do. He HAS to sign players to fill out the roster. I'm willing to wait and see what else he does before I conclude that he's intent on keeping the Hawks as a "treadmill" team.

We need to stop focusing on making the playoffs. That's my complaint. There's no point to it. We are a LOOOONG shot to make the ECF's, it's not going to make us any more attractive to FA's, and we're missing the window for the talent that can change things.

We are also filling the roster with salary. It's happening and in order to maintain the "competitiveness" that the ASG and Ferry wants, we're goign to have to KEEP adding it. We will not be able to add the max free agent, we won't be drafting anything significant, and we won't be going very far in the playoffs.

I've just seen it too many times for too long. And make no mistake...we're not building for the future. We're building for RIGHT NOW. I have a huge problem with that...

[drzachary]

We are also filling the roster with salary. It's happening and in order to maintain the "competitiveness" that the ASG and Ferry wants, we're goign to have to KEEP adding it. We will not be able to add the max free agent, we won't be drafting anything significant, and we won't be going very far in the playoffs.

There's a 90% of cap salary floor now (if I'm not mistaken.) Gotta add to it somehow. I guess you could sign nothing but scrubs to 1-year-deals? The 2-year deals have been pretty smart in that regard.