Real Talk Time #2

[Diesel]

Would you support a move to the "burbs" to save a move to another state??

Through a few different owner trials (David McDavid and the Pizza guy) one of the main thoughts have been with new ownership, the Hawks would be more apt to move to a different state. The reason... No fan support. We don't get many national TV views because when we are on TV, it's quiet and uninteresting and there's no fans at the game. However, this is not just for the TV trucks... Every game is like that. We used to refer to the OMNI as the Library. The "Phil" is not much better. SO who could blame the ASG if eventually they sold to heavy pockets who had intentions on moving the Hawks out??

Two places that come to mind easily are: Seattle and Pittsburgh. First Seattle... They have been sick after losing the Sonics. What wouldn't they do now to have basketball back in their city. Then there's Pittsburgh. Have you ever watched a Steelers' game? How about a Pirate's game? Those fans are crazy... Very Crazy and very loyal. All it takes is one group from Pittsburgh singing the right song and who knows.

But the realest threat is Kansas City.

Why are they such a big threat?

This is the Sprint Center. It's a state of the art arena that has NO basketball team yet.

Kansas City has fans who are probably the most loyal ever.

Until recently the Chiefs and the Royals never gave fans anything to care about, but those fans still came out. Their Royals attendance (by percentage of stadium capacity) was only a few points lower than that of the Braves... And their stadium was built back in 1973. The Chiefs fans just waited for this year... and I hope they win out.

So that brings in the second part of the real talk.

The growth of "the burbs" in Atlanta has made the Braves move from Turner Field... and could be a draw for the Hawks to improve attendance.

I think immediately ready would be Gwinnette County being that the Gwinnette Center Arena is basketball capable. I think it holds 13k. If it could be expanded to about 20k with luxury boxes.. I think that would be a cheaper fix than going somewhere else and building.

Here's the question.

Would the Hawks attendance increase if the Hawks were moved to the Burbs? (Real Talk)..

[lethalweapon3]

Although my answer is no on "Lawrenceville Fieldhouse" or "The Palace of Camp Creek," I'll weigh in a little later.

My favorite jokes about the Braves move on Twitter was when someone asked for suggestions on where the Hawks should move to be "closer to their fanbase"... answers were like Magic City, Run n Shoot, The Varsity, The Cheetah, Walter's Shoes, Cheshire Bridge Road, Memorial Drive, The Gold Club...

~lw3

Edited December 6, 2013 by lethalweapon3

[HawkItus]

People had the same complaints about the Falcons until Dan Reeves, Arthur Blank, and MV7 came to our town. If you build it they will come. Get good management, go to the Finals, have competent ownership, and bring in a super star. Do these things in any order and you will have a waiting list for season tickets.

[JETSET]

-Only a fool would think that there is more than a 0.00000% chance of the Hawks leaving Atlanta.

REAL TALK

[coachx]

-Only a fool would think that there is more than a 0.00000% chance of the Hawks leaving Atlanta.

REAL TALK

This.......end of thread.

[Sothron]

Apparently my sarcastic sense of humor does not carry well with the mods.

[Admin]

Apparently my sarcastic sense of humor does not carry well with the mods.

Not when I read it right after shutting the other real talk thread down for ignorant racist comments no I don't think your comments here, even sarcastically, were appropriate.

[Sothron]

Not when I read it right after shutting the other real talk thread down for ignorant racist comments no I don't think your comments here, even sarcastically, were appropriate.

It was just a joke based on how silly the other thread had gotten with the racist stuff. Sowwy...

[Diesel]

People had the same complaints about the Falcons until Dan Reeves, Arthur Blank, and MV7 came to our town. If you build it they will come. Get good management, go to the Finals, have competent ownership, and bring in a super star. Do these things in any order and you will have a waiting list for season tickets.

I don't immediately disagree. However, the argument has been getting back to downtown. Now, Sundays.. Sundays (and football) are easy. Not much downtown traffic on a Sunday. You can go to a football game, campout, tailgate, etc... However, the Hawks play through the week. This brings another dimension to "fan loyalty". Sure a star will make some fans more loyal. IN fact, ticket prices for mediocre games can be bought from $11.00 to $165.. so cost (right now) is not that big of a hindrance. However, getting people to come back downtown might be. I have been in that traffic and I will tell you... Rush hour in Atlanta is HELL. So there is a point about the ability to get downtown. BUT without said star and just a change of facility.. would the Hawks draw more fans?

Maybe the model is wrong. Maybe we need to buy into the if more people come, more people would come model.

[Admin]

It was just a joke based on how silly the other thread had gotten with the racist stuff. Sowwy...

No worries, I just don't want this thread going down that same path.

[Guest]

Where the Braves are moving to will be a traffic nightmare also.Traffic and downtown is less the issue than winning and Star talent - Atlanta's are 'star gazers'

Edited December 6, 2013 by JayBirdHawk

[JTB]

Here's the problem with this issue about Atlanta being sold to a richer owner and possibly moving to another state......it's a slim chance of happening!First off at since I am one of the younger fellows here in my generation "ATL is where it's at"...if you can understand those terms. The ATL isn't considered some small market like Utah! I know plenty if people that vacations in ATL including myself....I always enjoy my time in Atlanta and I have been to several big cities as of late and ATL is right up there!I'm not saying ATL is the best city in America but ATL ain't no shitty area like popular Detroit either. It's not about ATL....even though the city don't have many true hawk fans they do have many many bandwagon fans where it will take ONE star to get these bandwagon fans in seats for every game.If lebron or Durant were lone stars in Atlanta I doubt you will see all those jerseys in the stands of other popular teams when they come to town.We just need ONE star and we wouldn't even have conversations like this.

[Sothron]

No worries, I just don't want this thread going down that same path.

Understandable.

[Diesel]

Here's the problem with this issue about Atlanta being sold to a richer owner and possibly moving to another state......it's a slim chance of happening!First off at since I am one of the younger fellows here in my generation "ATL is where it's at"...if you can understand those terms. The ATL isn't considered some small market like Utah! I know plenty if people that vacations in ATL including myself....I always enjoy my time in Atlanta and I have been to several big cities as of late and ATL is right up there!I'm not saying ATL is the best city in America but ATL ain't no shitty area like popular Detroit either.It's not about ATL....even though the city don't have many true hawk fans they do have many many bandwagon fans where it will take ONE star to get these bandwagon fans in seats for every game.If lebron or Durant were lone stars in Atlanta I doubt you will see all those jerseys in the stands of other popular teams when they come to town.We just need ONE star and we wouldn't even have conversations like this.

For many years, I too believed what you believe... SO many NBA superstars have houses in Atlanta... certainly, they would like to play for the Hawks and be closer to home. The problem is that they don't. I think that there's a gossip forum in the NBA and we rank as one of the crummiest places to play. I just posted an article about how Nique felt after losing to Milwaukee. He said basically that he felt betrayed by the fans. To his credit, he was scoring 26 ppg at 46% FG%... then and now.. that's superstar numbers. I just don't see San Anton fans turning their backs on Duncan... or OKC fans turning their backs on Nique the way that Nique describe it. The reason I believe that there's a gossip forum is that no matter how well we do.. no matter how strong we play, there has always been former players like Kenny Smith and Brent Barry that is willing to just talk about our organization with hatred.

The other problem is one paper town. The AJC is all that there is. Superstars like being in places where they can get some press. When the only competition that the AJC has is the Augusta Chronicle or Creative Loafing... then there's not much for a star to want in Atlanta. Even the radio stations that broadcast Hawks games have personalities that talk pure ____ about the Hawks.

That's why we can have the most money and a team that looks built for a certain star and won't get much of a serious look. What's Ferry doing to change the culture??

Well, he pulled a Billy Knight on Josh Smith. It's damning to have Smith in Detroit saying... I thought they would atleast try to negotiate with me.. That makes the fans say... "Hell yeah".. but for other players they say... "man.. that's F'd up" and they say.. no way I go there.

[coachx]

Well, he pulled a Billy Knight on Josh Smith. It's damning to have Smith in Detroit saying... I thought they would atleast try to negotiate with me.. That makes the fans say... "Hell yeah".. but for other players they say... "man.. that's F'd up" and they say.. no way I go there.

I think most players know exactly why the Hawks did not offer Smith. Heck, they game planned against him year after year while watching Smith play right into their game plan.

Every time we were on national TV we would listen to Brent Berry diss us repeatedly based on our shot selection, repeated iso ball, and lack of offensive strategy or plan. Then at half time and after the game we would hear Barkley and Kenny diss our offense.

Ferry has fixed that part. Now we play smart basektball. National commentators now talk about how well we move the ball and how good our system is. Good players want to play in good systems. They don't want to play in a system where low percentage shooters are taking a bunch of poor shots while the organization allows them to do it. That is simply "bad basketball."

Ferry said the 1st thing he wants to do is "get the basketball part right." I think he and Coach Bud are achieving that.

Edited December 6, 2013 by coachx

[Guest]

For many years, I too believed what you believe... SO many NBA superstars have houses in Atlanta... certainly, they would like to play for the Hawks and be closer to home. The problem is that they don't. I think that there's a gossip forum in the NBA and we rank as one of the crummiest places to play. I just posted an article about how Nique felt after losing to Milwaukee. He said basically that he felt betrayed by the fans. To his credit, he was scoring 26 ppg at 46% FG%... then and now.. that's superstar numbers. I just don't see San Anton fans turning their backs on Duncan... or OKC fans turning their backs on Nique the way that Nique describe it. The reason I believe that there's a gossip forum is that no matter how well we do.. no matter how strong we play, there has always been former players like Kenny Smith and Brent Barry that is willing to just talk about our organization with hatred.The other problem is one paper town. The AJC is all that there is. Superstars like being in places where they can get some press. When the only competition that the AJC has is the Augusta Chronicle or Creative Loafing... then there's not much for a star to want in Atlanta. Even the radio stations that broadcast Hawks games have personalities that talk pure ____ about the Hawks. That's why we can have the most money and a team that looks built for a certain star and won't get much of a serious look. What's Ferry doing to change the culture?? Well, he pulled a Billy Knight on Josh Smith. It's damning to have Smith in Detroit saying... I thought they would atleast try to negotiate with me.. That makes the fans say... "Hell yeah".. but for other players they say... "man.. that's F'd up" and they say.. no way I go there.

It's not only about stats and Stars - SA won't turn there backs on Tim Duncan because he has delivered the CHAMPIONSHIPS. Additionally, even if they don't ultimately win - they are in the conversation year in year out.Atlanta always seems to dissapoint when the lights are brightest and expectations are high.

[lethalweapon3]

Chiming in. What's interesting to me is the move-to-the-Burbs-or-we-move-outta-town angle inferred here. The other NBA/NHL cities cited here (Seattle, Pittsburgh, KC) don't appear to be siting their sparkling new/planned/proposed arenas at the outskirts of their metros. KC's is adjacent to their Power & Light District downtown, while Seattle's is planned for the SoDo (south of downtown) district. Pittsburgh's new arena for the Penguins is southeast of downtown just outside the rough-and-tumble Hill District. I can't conceive that their suburbanites are any less rabid about pro hoops than ATL's are.

The arena itself is in fine condition, often lauded for its acoustics as a concert venue. And in it's the general-capacity areas where the team is losing revenue, so not so much blame can be pointed to inadequate corporate bigwig suites.

Of course, Turner Field was in decent-enough shape, too, no matter what the Braves claim. The difference is that Philips is situated in nearly the ideal spot to take advantage of the redevelopment that has happened near Centennial Olympic Park, Castleberry Hill, Fairlie-Poplar, and the Marietta Street strip. If anything, the Denver suburbanites that run the Braves were more than a bit jealous of the Hawks benefiting from active redevelopment (and transportation investment), while their team's environment remained staid over at Hank Aaron Drive. No trolleys, museums, park spaces, big-time hotel/retail developments, intermodal centers, or even ferris wheels were coming their way. Maybe they will now, where they're headed. but we'll see.

~lw3

Edited December 6, 2013 by lethalweapon3

[HawkItus]

Not when I read it right after shutting the other real talk thread down for ignorant racist comments no I don't think your comments here, even sarcastically, were appropriate.

Love it when Dolf goes ...............

On a poster lol

Edited December 6, 2013 by sultanofatl

[PSSSHHHRRR87]

I don't immediately disagree. However, the argument has been getting back to downtown. Now, Sundays.. Sundays (and football) are easy. Not much downtown traffic on a Sunday. You can go to a football game, campout, tailgate, etc... However, the Hawks play through the week. This brings another dimension to "fan loyalty". Sure a star will make some fans more loyal. IN fact, ticket prices for mediocre games can be bought from $11.00 to $165.. so cost (right now) is not that big of a hindrance. However, getting people to come back downtown might be. I have been in that traffic and I will tell you... Rush hour in Atlanta is HELL. So there is a point about the ability to get downtown. BUT without said star and just a change of facility.. would the Hawks draw more fans?

Maybe the model is wrong. Maybe we need to buy into the if more people come, more people would come model.

I agree with this statement. I love the Braves move to Cobb. People work in Atlanta but live in Marietta, Kennesaw, Alpharetta, Douglasville, Gainesville, etc... You have to be where your customers are and they aren't in Atlanta at 7:30 pm. No one wants to load up the kids and drive back into Atlanta to watch a Hawks game after fighting through rush hour traffic to get home. If the Hawks moved outside of 285, I bet their attendance would rise by about 3000 tickets per game. Another thing about the Falcons is that games are played only once a week and the season is only 4 months long. Going to the Falcons game is an event for people. As for the Braves and Hawks, the seasons are 7 months long and there are multiple games per week. No one is driving back to Atlanta 3 times a week to watch either team. I say leave the Falcons in Atlanta and move the Hawks and Braves outside 285. Hawks should even consider moving with the Braves to Cobb and share a parking lot like the Chiefs and Royals do in KC:

And those that say a superstar will solve the Hawks attendance issues in Atlanta obviously do not remember how vacant the Omni was at times when Nique was playing.

Attendance numbers during Nique's time in Atlanta:

Season  GP    Total   Avg.

1982-83 41   292,690  7,1381983-84 41   292,059  7,1391984-85 41   299,794  7,3121985-86 41   377,678  9,2121986-87 41   549,652 13,4061987-88 41   583,073 14,2211988-89 41   644,291 15,7141989-90 41   573,731 13,9931990-91 41   529,171 12,9071991-92 41   511,903 12,4851992-93 41   491,229 11,981

Omni Coliseum capacity: ~16,300

Average % of capacity: 69.9 %

Average % of capacity during Jordan era: 75.8%

*Also, notice how the last four seasons of Nique's stay in Atlanta was a steady decline.

Philips Arena attendance:

Season  GP    Total   Avg.1999-00 41   601,238 14,6642000-01 41   560,324 13,6662001-02 41   506,110 12,3442002-03 41   528,655 12,8942003-04 41   565,728 13,7982004-05 41   586,390 14,3022005-06 41   617,942 15,0712006-07 41   639,375 15,5942007-08 41   667,518 16,2802008-09 41   686,688 16,7482009-10 41   678,375 16,5452010-11 41   641,596 15,6482011-12 33   501,593 15,199

Philips Arena capacity: ~ 18,200

Average % of capacity- 81.4%

http://www.apbr.org/attendance.html

Given that basketball as a whole wasn't really popular until Michael Jordan came around, so those first few seasons during Nique's hay day don't really count, but attendance was an issue even when Atlanta had a superstar. Also, scroll down in the link I supplied and look at the attendance numbers of the Lakers and Celtics of the time. Maybe a superstar would help the Hawks for a few seasons, but as soon as that star has been in town a season or two, casual fans will get bored and those numbers will go back down.

I also agree with the comment about the Hawks moving out of town... As in that they won't. The league won't allow a top-10 viewing market for the sport to lose their team. Just won't happen.

[Diesel]

Chiming in. What's interesting to me is the move-to-the-Burbs-or-we-move-outta-town angle inferred here. The other NBA/NHL cities cited here (Seattle, Pittsburgh, KC) don't appear to be siting their sparkling new/planned/proposed arenas at the outskirts of their metros. KC's is adjacent to their Power & Light District downtown, while Seattle's is planned for the SoDo (south of downtown) district. Pittsburgh's new arena for the Penguins is southeast of downtown just outside the rough-and-tumble Hill District. I can't conceive that their suburbanites are any less rabid about pro hoops than ATL's are.

The arena itself is in fine condition, often lauded for its acoustics as a concert venue. And in it's the general-capacity areas where the team is losing revenue, so not so much blame can be pointed to inadequate corporate bigwig suites.

Of course, Turner Field was in decent-enough shape, too, no matter what the Braves claim. The difference is that Philips is situated in nearly the ideal spot to take advantage of the redevelopment that has happened near Centennial Olympic Park, Castleberry Hill, Fairlie-Poplar, and the Marietta Street strip. If anything, the Denver suburbanites that run the Braves were more than a bit jealous of the Hawks benefiting from active redevelopment (and transportation investment), while their team's environment remained staid over at Hank Aaron Drive. No trolleys, museums, park spaces, big-time hotel/retail developments, intermodal centers, or even ferris wheels were coming their way. Maybe they will now, where they're headed. but we'll see.

~lw3

All that is interesting and you failed to mention the aquarium... but on a Wednesday not at 7:30 tip.. how many people want to commute from the burbs into the city, fight traffic, fight parking, to go to a game... or ride the Marta... and get out of the game at 10:30 in order to get a ride back to their car and then drive home. I'm not saying anything about the criminal element of downtown... I believe Downtown "over there" is secure. I'm saying.. the logistics of actually going to the game with Atlanta's population. The average commute time in Atlanta is 36 minutes. The average Commute time in Pittsburgh is 26 minutes. The average commute time in KC is 18.3 minutes. When the National average is 25... Atlanta has it's bost of being a bad place to commute...on the average.