All you tankers should be ashamed of yourselves

[Guest]

Can anyone give a reason? Other than accomplishments and statistics from previous seasons? Horford will never be able to defend the paint quite like Duncan can even at his advanced age, but is Horford not a comparable or superior offensive player? Is he not a superior athlete? Can he not offer comparable or superior defense outside of the paint? Is he not a comparable rebounder and passer? Can he not help this team spread the floor and can he not help Teague play to his potential? I worry about Horford coming up short in postseasons past, but this is a brand new Hawks team.

I'm not saying anyone is wrong, but I'd like to see more than "Duncan had a better PER in 2013."

Don't get me wrong, though, the Hawks have a lot of work to do before we can think of comparing the two teams. But when talking about present day Duncan, I don't think he has the big advantage over Horford that many seem to believe.

Even at Tim Duncan's advanced age - he is still has a miriad of post moves that Al could never dream of having, bank shots, 15 footers, hooks you name it he has it - all smooth as silk. On defense he still has the ability to alter and block shots.

He may not run as fast jump and jump as high but still better than Al.

Pop can give the ball the Duncan at the end of game and I have more confidence in TD than I would in Al.

Edited May 23, 2014 by JayBirdHawk

[High5]

Even at Tim Duncan's advanced age - he is still has a miriad of post moves that Al could never dream of having, bank shots, 15 footers, hooks you name it he has it - all smooth as silk. On defense he still has the ability to alter and block shots.

He may not run as fast jump and jump as high but still better than Al.

Pop can give the ball the Duncan at the end of game and I have more confidence in TD than I would in Al.

Horford can't put his back to the basket and score as many point as Duncan (which is more reliable in crunch time I admit), but Horford can shoot with the best of them, take his man of the dribble more consistently, and run the floor. Points are points whether it's a hook shot, a jumper, or a dunk.

I know I'm never going to win this debate until Horford is back on the floor, though, so I'll save it for another day.

Edited May 23, 2014 by High5

[Guest]

Horford can't put his back to the basket and score as many point as Duncan (which is more reliable in crunch time I admit), but Horford can shoot with the best of them, take his man of the dribble more consistently, and run the floor. Points are points whether it's a hook shot, a jumper, or a dunk.

I seem to be outnumbered, though, so I'll save the debate for when Horford is back on the floor and able to prove it, hopefully (for all of our sake).

TD can and has carried the load offensively and defensively - still waiting on Al.

I hope Al proves me wrong next season.

I hope he does

[High5]

TD can and has carried the load offensively and defensively - still waiting on Al.

I hope Al proves me wrong next season.

I hope he does

That goes back to my original point, though. Duncan doesn't have to carry the load. Do you know how many times he's scored 20 points in the first 14 games of the postseason? 3 times. And the Spurs lost one of those. Duncan is their leader, but they have a balanced group of low firsts and 2nd round picks getting it done.

[AHF]

That goes back to my original point, though. Duncan doesn't have to carry the load. Do you know how many times he's scored 20 points in the first 14 games of the postseason? 3 times. And the Spurs lost one of those. Duncan is their leader, but they have a balanced group of low firsts and 2nd round picks getting it done.

They have the greatest collection of mid-low firsts and 2nd round picks in NBA history gathered around the hardest thing to find in basketball - someone who has a big positive impact in the post on both ends of the floor.

Al can't replicate the second part of that and our collection of mid-low first and 2nd round picks won't be as good as Parker, Manu, etc.

Defensively the Spurs are MUCH better than we are, in part because of Duncan's defensive impact. Beyond that just look at the scoring efficiency:

Both teams have a rotation of 9 players getting real minutes. The WORST player in the Spurs rotation has scored at a .534 TS% this post-season. That means the #9 player for the Spurs would be the #4 player for the Hawks. The #3 player for the Hawks would be the #8 player for the Spurs. You can keep going but it is clear we aren't on their level and that starts with Duncan and the impact he makes on defense and what he does both directly (scoring in the post reliably at a good efficiency) and indirectly (pulling defenders into the paint to open space on the perimeter) on offense.

So I take issue with both the idea that Horford is Duncan's equivalent today come playoff time and that our team can be reasonably constructed to replicate the success of the Spurs around Horford by adding more late first and second round picks.

Edited May 23, 2014 by AHF

[Hairydawgz]

I don't really remember drafting Marvin Williams, Sheldon Williams, Josh Childress. I don't care anymore about those guys.

I definitely remember drafting Sheldon... I'm getting ticked off just thinking about it now. Horrible pick! Thought so immediately! Marvin was just a let down

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[yungsta]

Horford can't put his back to the basket and score as many point as Duncan (which is more reliable in crunch time I admit), but Horford can shoot with the best of them, take his man of the dribble more consistently, and run the floor. Points are points whether it's a hook shot, a jumper, or a dunk.

I know I'm never going to win this debate until Horford is back on the floor, though, so I'll save it for another day.

Disagree with "points are points" statement. How you score your points matter. By scoring on post ups, Duncan is scoring his points in ways that put more pressure on the defense, which will lead to the defense collapsing on him. When the defense is collapsing on him and duncan is getting double teamed, the floor opens up for everyone else. The results of this is a better team offense.

Your "points are points" argument is like saying kyle korver's 12 pts on 47 FG% is no different than Demaree Carroll's 11 points on FG 47%. As a hawks fan you should know that this statement is clearly false.

[Wretch]

Disagree with "points are points" statement. How you score your points matter. By scoring on post ups, Duncan is scoring his points in ways that put more pressure on the defense, which will lead to the defense collapsing on him. When the defense is collapsing on him and duncan is getting double teamed, the floor opens up for everyone else. The results of this is a better team offense.

Your "points are points" argument is like saying kyle korver's 12 pts on 47 FG% is no different than Demaree Carroll's 11 points on FG 47%. As a hawks fan you should know that this statement is clearly false.

I have been trying to make people understand that for YEARS. Not only is it important how you score, but equally important is WHEN you score - that's just basketball 101.

[High5]

Disagree with "points are points" statement. How you score your points matter. By scoring on post ups, Duncan is scoring his points in ways that put more pressure on the defense, which will lead to the defense collapsing on him. When the defense is collapsing on him and duncan is getting double teamed, the floor opens up for everyone else. The results of this is a better team offense.

Your "points are points" argument is like saying kyle korver's 12 pts on 47 FG% is no different than Demaree Carroll's 11 points on FG 47%. As a hawks fan you should know that this statement is clearly false.

Yes, but Horford being a dynamite mid-range shooter and having the ability to take slower centers off the dribble also accomplishes that. Post ups aren't the only way to draw the attention of the defense.

[MaceCase]

Post ups are also far more inefficient than people realize as they are easily defended if you don't have the right personnel around the player or the right player who can easily pass out to the right man or draw contact and convert his attempts.

It's why you see Dwight be more successful with 4 out 1 in offenses and why Jefferson somehow gets credit for the Bobcats being 5th in defense despite being one of the worst front court defenders while you hear crickets about how come they were ranked 24th on offense, his supposed forte.

Unfortunately for the argument, Duncan checks all boxes even at his advanced age. Passing, face up, midrange shooting, low post, pick and roll, on the ball, off the ball, defense etc. etc. etc.

His game isn't limited in the least at anything but tricky dribbles and 3 point shooting. You know what you're getting with Al whereas Duncan is still one of the toughest cover in the league because you have to honor him always.

[High5]

It's funny, because I've always been a huge fan of Duncan (and still hoping for a SA championship) and I've been very critical of Horford in the past. Maybe him missing most of the season has conjured up some delusions, but I'm confident in his return and I'm confident in Bud's machine. I think a healthy Horford has a tremendous season. We'll see.

[Guest]

Unfortunately for the argument, Duncan checks all boxes even at his advanced age. Passing, face up, midrange shooting, low post, pick and roll, on the ball, off the ball, defense etc. etc. etc.

His game isn't limited in the least at anything but tricky dribbles and 3 point shooting. You know what you're getting with Al where as Duncan is still one of the toughest cover in the league because you have to honor him always.

Exactly This and that is why even at TD's advanced age he still trumps Al.

[NBASupes]

Tim Duncan is one of the greatest players ever. Horf is one of the better PF/C in the NBA but Duncan is all timer and legend.