Where is your faith in Buds System?

[AHF]

1 hour ago, hawksfanatic said:

Here's where it's pointless to go down a rabbit hole with you. I'm going to point out Paul Millsap (has he missed an All-Star game yet?), Joe Johnson (easy argument he was snubbed his 1st year as an All-Star in Atlanta), Deke (missed All-Star one year, came here as reigning DPOY and won it twice), and Moses (coming off an All-Star year and 1st year was All-Star). I'll also try and be clear that this is only about a 30 year slice that I'm taking a sample to point out that Atlanta has attracted top notch players. Undoubtedly the premise of "Atlanta cannot attract top talent" is wrong. You'll respond with some really f***ing ad hoc move of "well errr see I'm talking about E L I T E  T A L E N T" and then it's an argument of what is E L I T E. At times, this argument has been where you go ahead and define like....4 players a year that are E L I T E. Really dude? You're a child with these arguments.

It's undoubtedly wrong to say that Atlanta cannot attract talent. In 1988 when player movement was extremely limited, the Hawks were able to attract a 3-time MVP (not 2 years before he finished 10th in MVP voting, then his first year in Atlanta he finished 13th). Deke finished 13th in MVP when he signed in Atlanta, he also won DPOY and was coming off of a DPOY award. That isn't E L I T E ?? The Hawks picked up two players that participated with Team USA in trades through the 90s. Hell, Dominique was acquired through a trade with the Utah Jazz. If anything in the Hawks history indicates an area where they lack the ability to acquire talent....then it's probably the draft. Name all the All-Stars that the Atlanta Hawks have drafted? Teague, Horf, Willis, Doc, Eddie Johnson, John Drew, and Pistol. That's it, but what about through trades? Korver, Joe, Shareef, Smitty, Laettner, Mookie, Nique, and Roundfield. FA? Millsap, Deke, and Moses. Huh....so in an era where somewhere between 70-90% of players are acquired through the draft the Hawks have the most All-Stars through a trade. Weird huh.

Oh but sure, I guess no 'chip means not E L I T E so geez, none of them are E L I T E. Aw shucks.

You are damn right if you think Joe Johnson, Paul Millsap and Old Moses represent superstar talent that we are not going to reach a meeting of the minds.  

When you put Korver, JJ, etc. in the same breath as the guys I am talking about (Shaq, Lebron, Duncan, etc.) then we are just not going to get there.  Sarcastic labeling of true difference makers as E L I T E doesn't diminish the fact that Al Horford is not remotely comparable to Tim Duncan as far as getting you into true championship contention.

 

I do agree with you that borderline All-Stars are readily available in trades and free agency (precisely because teams don't value borderline All-Stars like they value superstars).  I just don't think they cut it  as your best player if you want to win a championship and you apparently don't see that as a meaningful topic of discussion.  Sarcasm and gifs don't get you there which is why that list of players above never won a game outside of the first or second round of the playoffs in Atlanta.

[Diesel]

3 minutes ago, AHF said:

You are damn right if you think Joe Johnson, Paul Millsap and Old Moses represent superstar talent that we are not going to reach a meeting of the minds.  

When you put Korver, JJ, etc. in the same breath as the guys I am talking about (Shaq, Lebron, Duncan, etc.) then we are just not going to get there.

 

I do agree with you that borderline All-Stars are readily available in trades and free agency (precisely because teams don't value borderline All-Stars like they value superstars).  I just don't think they cut it  as your best player if you want to win a championship and you apparently don't see that as a meaningful topic of discussion.

That's interesting.   I think you need to define what it means to be a "superstar".   Moses was a Hall of Famer.   Also, Moses wasn't dead weight when we acquired him. 

Quote

Malone, who played the last two seasons for Washington, averaged 20.3 points and 11.2 rebounds a game last season and was only one of four NBA players to rank in the top 20 scorers and top 10 rebounders.

 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, AHF said:

You are damn right if you think Joe Johnson, Paul Millsap and Old Moses represent superstar talent that we are not going to reach a meeting of the minds.  

And here's where an exception can prove the rule (using that phrase correctly here):

You omitted Deke.

So that means Deke is of superstar talent. And the Hawks did acquire him via Free Agency. Soooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ...... I guess we're not in a situation where the Hogs can only go through the draft to get E L I T E  T A L E N T, no? Which is kinda my point.

"THE DRAFT IS FOOLS GOLD"

"YOU NEED TO GO THROUGH THE DRAFT FOR TALENT"

Maybe there's lots of ways to build a team? And the reliance on the draft is shrinking as the Salary Cap rises to erode some of the power that incumbent teams have on drafted talent (ie differences in $$$$). We've seen this through the changing composition of how teams build their roster.

There's also this pesky CBA which is going to change next year in some unknown way. Will draft picks become more valuable? Less valuable? Is there going to be a Hard Cap? Will individual maximum salaries change? Is restricted free agency going to be expanded? Contracted? There's a whole heckuva lot of unknowns. It's probably best to leave yourself with a lot of different options going forward. I certainly wouldn't put all my eggs in one basket.

[AHF]

29 minutes ago, Diesel said:

That's interesting.   I think you need to define what it means to be a "superstar".   Moses was a Hall of Famer.   Also, Moses wasn't dead weight when we acquired him. 

 

Moses was a Hall of Famer.  No doubt.  Back in 1983 he was MVP and won a ring.  

By the time he got in with the Hawks, his athleticism had waned and he was a nice but no longer great player.  His main move on the Hawks was ramming into the guy guarding him and either scoring or drawing a foul.  

In his prime from age 23-29, Moses averaged:

25.9 points 

14.7 rebounds

1.6 blocks

 

By the time he arrived in Atlanta, he was 33 and clearly no longer at that peak.

His first year in Atlanta he put up (I limit it to this because this was his best year in Atlanta and it makes his best possible case):

20.2 points (22% drop)

11.8 rebounds (20.1% drop)

1.2 blocks (25.7% drop)

 

During his prime, Moses got heavy MVP voting every year and finished an average of 4th place in the MVP voting.  

In Atlanta, he finished 13th his first year and did not receive any votes the next two years.

 

Moses was All-NBA first or second team every year of his prime.  He was not All-NBA at any time in Atlanta.

 

So yeah, there was a difference and it was a very material one.  80% of prime Moses is still good but 80% of prime Moses won't work to get you to the promised land unless he is a member of the supporting cast.  Prime Moses could be the best player on that championship team.

(It is notable that the Washington Bullets did not make much effort to resign Moses after two first round playoff exits with him for fear that they would be overpaying a declining player.)

[AHF]

12 minutes ago, hawksfanatic said:

And here's where an exception can prove the rule (using that phrase correctly here):

You omitted Deke.

So that means Deke is of superstar talent. And the Hawks did acquire him via Free Agency. Soooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ...... I guess we're not in a situation where the Hogs can only go through the draft to get E L I T E  T A L E N T, no? Which is kinda my point.

"THE DRAFT IS FOOLS GOLD"

"YOU NEED TO GO THROUGH THE DRAFT FOR TALENT"

Maybe there's lots of ways to build a team? And the reliance on the draft is shrinking as the Salary Cap rises to erode some of the power that incumbent teams have on drafted talent (ie differences in $$$$). We've seen this through the changing composition of how teams build their roster.

There's also this pesky CBA which is going to change next year in some unknown way. Will draft picks become more valuable? Less valuable? Is there going to be a Hard Cap? Will individual maximum salaries change? Is restricted free agency going to be expanded? Contracted? There's a whole heckuva lot of unknowns. It's probably best to leave yourself with a lot of different options going forward. I certainly wouldn't put all my eggs in one basket.

We've talked about Deke.  I loved Deke.  Loved him. 

 

There is no way he is a superstar.  He cannot be the best player on your team and see you win a championship except during an outlier season.  We've talked about this before and we don't agree on anything except that Deke is the best FA Atlanta has signed.

 

I definitely agree on you that we shouldn't put all our eggs in one basket.  I've never advocated that.  We should be exploring trades, trying to woo free agents, and looking to maximize our draft assets.

However, if you don't evaluate the realistic avenues available to you then you are doing yourself a disservice.  In the NFL, the Patriots have decided to put more emphasis on the draft than many other teams and use free agency in a much more surgical way than other teams (i.e., teams like the Redskins are constantly trying to build their core through FA but the Patriots have decided it is an inefficient avenue and invested in there in a more narrow way).  The NFL is not the same as the NBA but we need to do the assessment and decide how we can get our cornerstone player(s).  In doing so, we need to prioritize the avenues that offer the best and most realistic opportunities.  I've laid out why I think the draft is a real opportunity for us (I don't care how we get the pick or draft rights) and why I think trading for a proven veteran or signing a free agent veteran are not as promising.

[Guest]

27 minutes ago, AHF said:

We've talked about Deke.  I loved Deke.  Loved him. 

 

There is no way he is a superstar.  He cannot be the best player on your team and see you win a championship except during an outlier season.  We've talked about this before and we don't agree on anything except that Deke is the best FA Atlanta has signed.

 

2 hours ago, hawksfanatic said:

You'll respond with some really f***ing ad hoc move of "well errr see I'm talking about E L I T E  T A L E N T" and then it's an argument of what is E L I T E. At times, this argument has been where you go ahead and define like....4 players a year that are E L I T E. Really dude? You're a child with these arguments.

Uhhhh.....so should we continue with the E L I T E T A L E N T debate here where you have a flimsy ass definition of what is E L I T E ??

....still waiting on that definition of E L I T E that somehow doesn't include a Hall of Famer coming off an All-Star year in the prime of their career where they also were the reigning DPOY to then win it again.

[Guest]

This thread..........made me do this.

[AHF]

Elite is a superstar.  Someone who can be the best player on a team that wins a championship.  Someone whose dominant play will put them among the top handful of players in the league (not just an All-Star appearance).  Guys like Jordan, Magic, Hakeem, Bird, Wilt, Duncan, etc.  Not guys like Lamarcus Aldridge, Pau Gasol, Al Horford, Horace Grant, etc.  Guys who are no doubt first team All-NBA types, future HOFers, and in the discussion not for All-Star but for best single player in the game.

Those are the guys who dramatically move the needle and win rings.  Going with a roster that peaks with a Joe Johnson type player means you are hoping to connect that rare chemistry of the Billups' Pistons and the 79 Sonics (who had one second team All-NBA appearance between the two of them).  That is really hard to do.  The rings cluster around the guys who are no doubt first team All-NBA / MVP candidates, and not guys whose biggest accolades are making the All-Star team or squeaking in for a rare second team All-NBA nod.  

[AHF]

Now if you are ready to stop dodging the question and focusing on semantics and get back to how you think the Hawks can acquire a transformational player through trade or free agency, I am all ears.

[Sothron]

1 hour ago, Diesel said:

Just like nobody saw us coming last year, I think that the moves that we need to make will be moves that will propel us back into an elite team status and it's a move that most of the "experts" here won't see coming.

The original premise is bad.  People think that we need a superstar to win.    A superstar would be great, but really for us to win, we have to get players that fit our need.   I think we're not far off from what we need and we just may make a bigger than expected splash this year... however, this is a usual thing for people to reject a new intervention and go back to something that they are familiar with even if they know it won't work.

So I'm not surprised to see AHF talk about the value of drafting a superstar whereas when you look over OUR HISTORY, our franchise has NEVER drafted one.  #foolsgold

 

We did draft one guy #1 overall that was a superstar but he played for the ABA but I understand the point you are making. You think that basically replacing DMC with a similar output at the 3 will put us back to where we were last season.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, AHF said:

Now if you are ready to stop dodging the question and focusing on semantics and get back to how you think the Hawks can acquire a transformational player through trade or free agency, I am all ears.

[Guest]

By draft, by trade, by  free agency....the fact remains the same: The Hawks are in  need of a talent upgrade.

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, AHF said:

Someone whose dominant play will put them among the top handful of players in the league (not just an All-Star appearance).  Guys like Jordan, Magic, Hakeem, Bird, Wilt, Duncan, etc.

Oh, so again like 4 players a year? That are defined how? Oh, that they have won a championship. W-O-W. So you use the outcome variable to define the variable that you claim will define the outcome. This is called begging the question (phrase used correctly here) and it's a worthless discussion.

"You need someone who is [X] to win a championship. How are you [X]? Well, if you win a championship you are [X]."

So the very definition of being a superstar, which you claim is the only way to win a championship, is to in effect win a championship plus a few extra things.

[Guest]

19 minutes ago, AHF said:

Now if you are ready to stop dodging the question and focusing on semantics and get back to how you think the Hawks can acquire a transformational player through trade or free agency, I am all ears.

Oh, so I need to give you a rundown of the exact moves I'd make in order to put the team into contention? While all you do is sit there spewing out bullshit about how "oh you *need* to go through the draft it's the only way!!"

Conveniently, I have actually talked about this in much more depth than you have here: http://www.peachtreehoops.com/2016/2/22/11081332/al-horford-max-contract-details-atlanta-hawks

So I guess....

[JTB]

13 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

By draft, by trade, by  free agency....the fact remains the same: The Hawks are in  need of a talent upgrade.

Yes but @AHF has a very good point that free agency is basically an unrealistic option for Atlanta to get a superstar player. I mean there's just too many years of no real interest coming from big time players who hit free  agency to want to come to ATL.

Draft is an option but we aren't bad enough to actually get in the lottery and it's going to be some years until we are unless there are major injuries.

Trade is debatable in my point of view. Some say ....well the Hawks don't have the assets. I completely disagree , the Hawks just don't want to dismantle their whole team to get that foundational guy aka superstar player...for example I know that doc would consider trading Blake griffin + cheap filler to the Hawks for a package of Jeff Teague, Horford, and you may have to throw in korver or sub millsap for horford...doesn't matter that would make the clippers deeper and give them more options to win now and trust me they need a deeper roster with teams like the Warriors and Spurs around and we would basically be giving them two or three all star players.

For us we get back a superstar player who finished 4th in MVP voting just 2 years ago. Bud can then build around Blake griffin and millsap and Dennis. 

That's how you acquire a superstar talent! You have to be willing to DISMANTLE nearly the hole team in other words give up most key plsyers. Bud isn't willing to do that, he has made it known that he's going to protect our KEY players.

[Guest]

28 minutes ago, JTB said:

I know that doc would consider trading Blake griffin + cheap filler to the Hawks for a package of Jeff Teague, Horford, and you may have to throw in korver or sub millsap for horford..

Pray tell, how exactly do you KNOW?

[AHF]

38 minutes ago, hawksfanatic said:

Oh, so I need to give you a rundown of the exact moves I'd make in order to put the team into contention? While all you do is sit there spewing out bullshit about how "oh you *need* to go through the draft it's the only way!!"

Conveniently, I have actually talked about this in much more depth than you have here: http://www.peachtreehoops.com/2016/2/22/11081332/al-horford-max-contract-details-atlanta-hawks

So I guess....

You think that talking about the ability to open up cap space addresses the issue of how to get a guy like Durant to sign?

Please.

The article is great but it is not a road map to landing a guy like Durant.  It is a discussion of our flexiblity and options under the cap.   Again, the work you do on that is fantastic.  But it doesn't go to the question of how you get a superstar to sign.  Understanding how to open the cap space to land a superstar and figuring out a way to actually entice the superstar to sign are different questions because we could open 50M in cap space and still not be able to sign Durant.

And again with the insult gifs.  It must get tiring for you to come up with butt jokes and middle fingers to pair with every dodge.  I'm not looking for an exact set of moves - just a realistic path that lands Durant or someone at that level.  I've poo-poo'd free agency over and over again not because of our inability to open cap space but because of our inability to get that guy to sign.

(Note: Durant has no championship but is a superstar.  He is in the conversation for best player in the NBA.)

[Guest]

7 hours ago, macdaddy said:

Thank you for being the only one to step up and answer the question.    I knew at some point someone would say well we could probably get Melo by trade but I would argue that at this point Melo isn't a star.  Plus he has a no trade clause which he would and has exercised to stay in NY and not come to Atlanta.   So that by itself invalidates the argument that we could have Melo if we wanted.    He's a great offensive player but he can't even get a team into the playoffs these days.   In the past I believe we were interested in him just as I'm sure we took a shot at every legit star (Ferry said in his infamous call that Melo was worth it), but when Melo was a star we couldn't figure out a way to get him.  Why?  Because it's extremely rare instances that legit stars get traded and when they do there are usually 20+ teams competing to get that star.

 

So again I say that the idea that if the Hawks just really wanted a star they could easily trade for one is B-U-N-K

Speaking of Melo....

BOSTON — A frustrated Carmelo Anthony admitted on Friday he needs to"figure out a way to get out" of the worst three-year stretch of his career.

The answer was in response to a question about being envious that three of his best friends — LeBron James, Chris Paul and Dwyane Wade — who all play for championship contending teams while the Knicks will likely missed the playoffs for a third straight season.

"I don't think envy is kind of the right word," Anthony said Friday morning. "I do look at my peers and say, 'Damn, what am I doing wrong? I should be there.' There was one point in time where they were looking at me like that. Made (the playoffs) 10, 11 years straight.

"Right now it's kind of a rough patch for me. I'm trying to figure out a way to get out of it."

 

Well Melo you wanted the money and you took the money. You had a chance to sign with better team instead of a 17 win Nix team. Now Porzy is the man.  To rip off @TheFuzz  Melo for Teague,  Splitter and Scott plus pick.

 

[NBASupes]

25 minutes ago, JTB said:

Yes but @AHF has a very good point that free agency is basically an unrealistic option for Atlanta to get a superstar player. I mean there's just too many years of no real interest coming from big time players who hit free  agency to want to come to ATL.

Draft is an option but we aren't bad enough to actually get in the lottery and it's going to be some years until we are unless there are major injuries.

Trade is debatable in my point of view. Some say ....well the Hawks don't have the assets. I completely disagree , the Hawks just don't want to dismantle their whole team to get that foundational guy aka superstar player...for example I know that doc would consider trading Blake griffin + cheap filler to the Hawks for a package of Jeff Teague, Horford, and you may have to throw in korver or sub millsap for horford...doesn't matter that would make the clippers deeper and give them more options to win now and trust me they need a deeper roster with teams like the Warriors and Spurs around and we would basically be giving them two or three all star players.

For us we get back a superstar player who finished 4th in MVP voting just 2 years ago. Bud can then build around Blake griffin and millsap and Dennis. 

That's how you acquire a superstar talent! You have to be willing to DISMANTLE nearly the hole team in other words give up most key plsyers. Bud isn't willing to do that, he has made it known that he's going to protect our KEY players.

One of the worst ideas I've heard yet.

[Mdizzle5]

15 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Pray tell, hoe exactly do you KNOW?

Well that's just plain rude, Jay.