Where is your faith in Buds System?

[Sothron]

Bud's system is mostly fine but there has to be work done on rebounding. I also agree with others that without a superstar you don't win titles. The two exceptions in NBA history are the late 70's Sonics and the mid oughts Pistons. That is not something to shoot for.

[Hawkmoor]

3 hours ago, JTB said:

I wouldn't say they refuse to get big time talent but I would say they refuse to go to great limits to get big time players and I think that's the Hawks organization biggest issue.

And it seems to be some if not most hawk fans biggest issue as well. I mean seriously there are some out there that are jumping for joy that horford is coming back next season but not realizing its for a huge max salary which will put us in a hole down some years down the stretch when the salary cap drops and we are paying a 33 year old non superstar player 25+ mil still.

Hawks organization seem to have brainwashed their fans that they have valuable untouchable assets but in reality they don't. Our ONLY untouchable player should be Dennis since he still has a chance to be something huge.

One these good ol days more fans are going to realize without the foundational superstar piece it's not going to matter what team is put on that floor. 

But im extremely fed up! I use to be one of the most optimistic posters on this board but I'm done with that shit. I've realized that the Hawks only do a good job at bringing in level B players (Joe Johnson/Millsap) but they are too afraid to go big or go home. Maybe it's because of other franchises not being able to build contenders around their star players? Minnesota couldn't do anything with love or KG....Raptors couldn't build around VC...but since when did it matter what other franchises where doing? Just because they failed doesn't mean ATL will.

HOW DO HAWK FANS STAY SO OPTIMISTIC WHEN NBA HISTORY SHOWS THAT THERE IS A SUPERSTAR PLAYER ON EVERY CHAMPIONSHIP TEAM THERE EVER WAS....(except Detroit...but that's the only argument you can make out of 50+ years!!!! and even they won ONLY once during that whole time they were together)

WAKE UP HAWK FANS WE NEED A DAMN STAR HERE...not in the future not in the next 10 years...it should be a priority to bring a star here immediately

Exactly. They refuse to go to GREAT limits to get a big time player.  It got out that there was more interest from Dwight Howard, than from the Hawks.

Exactly.  Some fans are jumping for the kool aid.  A max Horford contract to keep the status quo. Hawks owners aint fooling me. The fans dont hold that organization accountable. As long as they can sign Horford , marketing piece.  I can hear them now: " Welcome to the highlight factory. Allll Hoooorford and your Atlanta Hawks."  LMAO

These contracts aint about the player, its about a face they can put on the franchise.  They will then hoist Horford's contract up as a excuse to why they " limited to what they can do, blah, blah, blah."

Exactly. Want a level B, no problem. Want to go for the CHIP, problem.  They DONT wanna go big.  They proved that LAST year when they didnt improve the roster before the trade deadline. I knew what was up with them WAAAAAAAAY back then, BEFORE they started slipping.

Lastly. Is ALWAYS wait till next year with the Hawks AND Falcons. They BOTH follow the SAME blueprint.

 

Edited March 3, 2016 by Hawkmoor

[Guest]

Dwight is NOT a SUPERSTAR anymore. When the Hawks were interested in Dwight he had the option of choosing the Hawks but he had no interest in signing here.

I'm still waiting for the exact  plan to get us that real SuperStar for next season.

Let's list the Superstars and see how we can get them.

[hazer]

The system is great and can take the Hawks to the Finals. But what MUST happen is better drafting. Plain and simple. All Schröders, no Paynes. Forget need, draft the the best damn player available EVERY time and develop your own star. And you can't be cheap with the pick. Combined with the continued shrewd/affordable trades and signings for need (DMC, Korver, Thabo, etc) they've been pulling off, it's the only way they're going to make it. No LaBronna, KD, CP3, Kawhi, Davis, etc is coming here, in their prime. Period. Draft day, have an evolving list of BPAs adjusted after every single pick comes off the board, try to move up if a particularly good fit falls into an achievable range, and/or take the highest one on the list when your turn comes up. It's not rocket surgery.....

[sturt]

I actually like where we're at. No, really. I can recall David Robinson's Spurs. Do you?

 

One player away for all those seasons between 1990 and 1996. Robinson gets hurt, and whaddayaknow, a first pick named Duncan lands in SA's lap.

I feel like you only have to look at the stat sheet of last year and this to see that if you can somehow get Kyle's impact back, either from him or from someone else, you're even stronger than last year's roster... and that's a team that was capable of competing at the highest level.

No one knows for certain what will happen, of course, but if we end up with this ballooning of the salary cap, we stand a chance of attracting a substantial new piece.

So... yeah... I look at our situation and I think it actually looks pretty sunny. Validated system. Solid players. Solid coaching. But it's never gonna be easy.

 

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, hazer said:

The system is great and can take the Hawks to the Finals. But what MUST happen is better drafting. Plain and simple. All Schröders, no Bebes. Forget need, draft the the best damn player available EVERY time and develop your own star. And you can't be cheap with the pick. Combined with the continued shrewd/affordable trades and signings for need (DMC, Korver, Thabo, etc) they've been pulling off, it's the only way they're going to make it. No LaBronna, KD, CP3, Kawhi, Davis, etc is coming here, in their prime. Period. Draft day, have an evolving list of BPAs adjusted after every single pick comes off the board, try to move up if a particularly good fit falls into an achievable range, and/or take the highest one on the list when your turn comes up. It's not rocket surgery.....

Yep, especially drafting.

[hazer]

6 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Yep, especially drafting.

I went even further and edited my "no Bebes" to "no Paynes".

[JTB]

2 hours ago, Watchman said:

The key would be how many packaged players would have to go towards acquiring said superstar.  If you get rid of multiple good players to acquire said superstar, have you weakened your roster to the point that adding a superstar doesn't help make things any better?

For example, if you traded Teague and Al (assuming he was re-signed) to get Durant (assuming he was re-signed or chose not to opt out), you'd have Durant, Millsap, Schröder, Korver, Splinter, perhaps Bazemore, perhaps Humphries, perhaps Thabo, (if we re-signed Bazemore, Humphries and Thabo), and some bargain basement filler roster pieces.   Can that team win?  Would it be worth it to Durant to leave OKC to take a chance on the Hawks?  Would our situation be better than what he has in OKC?  By the time Durant's contract ran out, we might have made our way back to be being a decent team, but Durant would have been wasted during the rebuild.

 

well here's my opinion.....if the Hawks, not talking about any other franchise but only our Hawks were to get into that situation with having a KD and Paul Millsap and Schröder it wouldn't take bud no longer than another year or two to put a championship contending team together. Now that's just my faith in Bud and staff ability to find blue collar role players who fit the system and their ability to develop those players quickly.

But hey I'm just a fan on the outside looking in! Actual players in the NBA probably has a better view on if they actually can trust and feel bud is that capable to do any this in that short time frame of 1-2 years. Some stars may feel bud can do it and build a team quickly to contend like melo felt about Phil coming to New York then some stars may feel Bud isn't on that level to build a team so quickly.

[JTB]

1 hour ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Dwight is NOT a SUPERSTAR anymore. When the Hawks were interested in Dwight he had the option of choosing the Hawks but he had no interest in signing here.

I'm still waiting for the exact  plan to get us that real SuperStar for next season.

Let's list the Superstars and see how we can get them.

Well Dwight not being a Superstar anymore is your opinion and I respect that but Howard is still a star player to many including myself except he gets it done without all the flash now and that's where I stand on Howard. Everything he did then can be done now with a lot less flash. He's not 2nd in rebounding and 1st in fg% by luck this season....harden has really diminished Howard limiting his number of touches offensively to avg 18-22 points a game and until Dwight leaves he will look like a player scoring wise who isn't capable of huge scoring nights anymore but we all know it's because of hardens high usage of always controlling the ball from start to finish.

Howard doesn't work with ball dominating SGs or perimeter players period who don't avg a high number of assist. Put Howard on a ball moving offense with 3pt shooters like the Hawks and he will flourish again.....oh and the back issues are bullshit! If his back is in that bad of shape and he's still capable of leading top 5 in rebounds and fg% it ain't that bad.

Bud need to seriously consider him this offseason.

[benhillboy]

2 hours ago, Sothron said:

Bud's system is mostly fine but there has to be work done on rebounding. I also agree with others that without a superstar you don't win titles. The two exceptions in NBA history are the late 70's Sonics and the mid oughts Pistons. That is not something to shoot for.

I thought the Mid 00's (or is it oughts?) Pistons was something to strive for, especially for a mid-tier payroll and how tight and tough the club was.  Looking at that roster, the Iverson/Deke/Nobody team, and SMU, no disrespect to the players, but it was all Larry Brown.  

He and his boy Pop are more chameleon-like with running their rosters and systems than Bud.  Both would go Bobby Knight at the sight of our recurring pitiful rebounding numbers.  

[Diesel]

The key to fixing Bud's system is first understanding it.   I don't believe it's predicated on rebounds.   I believe it's predicated on good defense and having enough scorers to be efficient.

 

The fix in my mind is simple...  we need good wings.

 

1.  Omri Casspi.   6'9 225.  SF.

2.  Nicolas Batum 6'8 200 SG

3.  Evan Fournier  6'7" 205  SG/SF

These three with Bazemore/Korver gives us the rotation that we need to win a championship.  

I don't think that Bud would want anymore bigs than he has.. Meaning resign Horf.  However, if there were one more big I would add to this mix, it would Clint Capela.

 

 

[Diesel]

7 hours ago, Hawkmoor said:

The Hawks need to be ASHAMED of themselves. They got their fans in the kitchen trying to come up with combinations of baloney, pig snoots,pig feet, onions, spice and trying to pass it off as filet mignon because they REFUSE to get big time players in Atlanta.

Name ONE NBA championship team that DIDNT have a superstar??  I know, people wanna drag out the Detroit Pistons, but that team had a superstar in Wallace, who was surrounded with borderline superstar players.  The Media never liked Rasheed Wallace, so they slighted him as not being a superstar when he was in Detroit.  Wallace, Billups, Tyshawn, etc. that team had TALENT.  Dont get it twisted.

I know the Hawks want to sell us this thing of winning a championship with role players and a system. Its a NICE story. Show the NBA the San Antonio way, blah, blah, blah.  The Spurs got SUPERSTARS.  They one of the ORIGINAL big THREE teams.  Now they got Aldridge and Leonard paired with Duncan, Parker, etc.

Until the Hawks get better players, it aint happening........... The ONLY team in the NBA right now that would succeed with Bud's system is Golden State because of TALENT............

 

 

The thing that you fail to understand is that when you win a championship, the league will tell you who your superstars are.   That's why you're calling Wallace.  Wallace wasn't so great on those Piston's teams.  He was definitely not superstar level.   Had we won the championship last year, they were positioned to make the superstar Sap or Korver.

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, JTB said:

Well Dwight not being a Superstar anymore is your opinion and I respect that but Howard is still a star player to many including myself except he gets it done without all the flash now and that's where I stand on Howard. Everything he did then can be done now with a lot less flash. He's not 2nd in rebounding and 1st in fg% by luck this season....harden has really diminished Howard limiting his number of touches offensively to avg 18-22 points a game and until Dwight leaves he will look like a player scoring wise who isn't capable of huge scoring nights anymore but we all know it's because of hardens high usage of always controlling the ball from start to finish.

Howard doesn't work with ball dominating SGs or perimeter players period who don't avg a high number of assist. Put Howard on a ball moving offense with 3pt shooters like the Hawks and he will flourish again.....oh and the back issues are bullshit! If his back is in that bad of shape and he's still capable of leading top 5 in rebounds and fg% it ain't that bad.

Bud need to seriously consider him this offseason.

I guess our definitions of what constitutes a Superstar is different and that's fine. 

And please understand me, I have no issue with ADDING Dwight to our current players, my issue was TRADING for him and what we would have to send out especially without him opting in.

[Diesel]

2 hours ago, Sothron said:

Bud's system is mostly fine but there has to be work done on rebounding. I also agree with others that without a superstar you don't win titles. The two exceptions in NBA history are the late 70's Sonics and the mid oughts Pistons. That is not something to shoot for.

 

I'm not going to suggest that we don't have what we need to win.   We just need some fine tuning.

 

[JTB]

14 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

I guess our definitions of what constitutes a Superstar is different and that's fine. 

And please understand me, I have no issue with ADDING Dwight to our current players, my issue was TRADING for him and what we would have to send out especially without him opting in.

I'm with you on that point.

[JTB]

26 minutes ago, Diesel said:

The key to fixing Bud's system is first understanding it.   I don't believe it's predicated on rebounds.   I believe it's predicated on good defense and having enough scorers to be efficient.

 

The fix in my mind is simple...  we need good wings.

 

1.  Omri Casspi.   6'9 225.  SF.

2.  Nicolas Batum 6'8 200 SG

3.  Evan Fournier  6'7" 205  SG/SF

These three with Bazemore/Korver gives us the rotation that we need to win a championship.  

I don't think that Bud would want anymore bigs than he has.. Meaning resign Horf.  However, if there were one more big I would add to this mix, it would Clint Capela.

 

 

That's interesting! Most who have replied have stated along the lines that "Buds system is good but he will need stars in the system to actually compete for a championship" 

....but you seem to believe a better wing rotation added to go along with Korver and Baze will be all we need to actually win a championship also adding the fact that we don't need anymore bigs or none of any huge significance.

Well what about the following :

-With that team who's going to get you a bucket when need be?

-Who's the closer?

-Who's the unquestionable leader?

I just believe it's unrealistic to believe you can win a championship in the NBA without a star player. I hate to rant on about what history shows but it's the truth and it's what the NBA has become. No star, no rings! It's not opinionated...it's cold hard facts!

[macdaddy]

Is there really a debate about the need for star players?   I don't see that as a big revelation.   Some seem to think that you can get one (or presumably more) just by trying real hard to do it.   I think that's BS and can point to lot's of history and the present reality of the majority of NBA teams to show that it is BS.

[Guest]

Superstar players are guys that you say he's the cornerstone,  let's construct our team around him, make him the focal point - need a basket get him the ball, final shot get him the ball. Detroit didn't have that one guy like that. What they did have was an unquestioned leader in Billups. On top of not having a Superstar, the Hawks don't have a leader vocal or otherwise. 

[JTB]

What's interesting is that sometime last week when I was listening to NBA radio on Sirius XM ....someone (forgot who) came on one of the shows and said he believes that there are some teams out there that can get a star if they really wanted that star because they have the pieces to acquire that star but he's heard that most of those teams are too afraid to deplete their roster in doing so.

I believe his reports and I believe the Hawks are among those teams that are afraid to go to max to get a star here. We have plenty to give to a team to take back a star player but the Hawks organization is selling us on this so called continuation plan which ultimately means we will protect our core players who are not superstars.

[JTB]

25 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Superstar players are guys that you say he's the cornerstone,  let's construct our team around him, make him the focal point - need a basket get him the ball, final shot get him the ball. Detroit didn't have that one guy like that. What they did have was an unquestioned leader in Billups. On top of not having a Superstar, the Hawks don't have a leader vocal or otherwise. 

That's true but it seems that superstars are normally vocal anyways so if we were able to get one that would kill 2 birds with one stone.