Draft chatter with Travis Schlenk

[Sothron]

37 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

Because all of the talk was getting this so called Superstar by tanking and Indy did just that and are and have been worse than us all but 1 year and almost lost to us in the playoffs with the Hawks missing Horford.  A protanker needs to explain this otherwise admit it isn't an exact science and quit preaching as though it is.

Not one person has said it is an exact science. Do you have any other straw men you want to put in this thread? You've already filled it up with one random straw man after another.  The only thing that seems to be unchallenged is that you need superstars to win titles and out of the 3 ways to get one there's only realistic route for the Hawks to take to get one.

Again, you don't seem to understand and this goes for @kg01 as well apparently that rebuilding does not have to mean tanking. You subtract enough talent from a team you will lose organically enough to keep from making the playoffs.

[DBac]

14 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

Because all of the talk was getting this so called Superstar by tanking and Indy did just that and are and have been worse than us all but 1 year and almost lost to us in the playoffs with the Hawks missing Horford.  A protanker needs to explain this otherwise admit it isn't an exact science and quit preaching as though it is.

Indiana got Paul George in 2010 and ascended from 32 wins to 56 over the first four years of his career. Then lost Paul George for the season right after that and got Myles Turner. Now their team is vastly different than those teams that made the ECF. Should've been steadier with building around PG and Myles IMO, didn't really look like they had a plan when they were just signing whatever 'name player' was available last year. Maybe they had an indication that PG wanted to go to LA.

IMO the stars that you can currently build a championship level team around are Lebron, Durant, Steph, Harden, Kawhi, and CP3. I'll probably catch hell for omitting Russ but his style of play doesn't really win. It's just not efficient enough. He could play on a championship team but he couldn't be your best player. Probably one of my favorite players in the NBA though. Lebron Durant and Steph are obvious. Harden is like Russ but more efficient. He might be a quitter though. CP3 is another one I'll catch hell for because he hasn't even been to the conference finals. IDK, his teams are consistently really damn good. He's really good too so I don't have a problem putting him up there. Just an unfortunate career for him. His health is getting concerning though. 

In the future you'll be able to win with Anthony Davis, Giannis Antetokounmpo, KAT, Joel Embiid (health permitting), and maybe still Kawhi. Of course there are more young players to be drafted soon.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Sothron said:

Not one person has said it is an exact science. Do you have any other straw men you want to put in this thread? You've already filled it up with one random straw man after another.  The only thing that seems to be unchallenged is that you need superstars to win titles and out of the 3 ways to get one there's only realistic route for the Hawks to take to get one.

Again, you don't seem to understand and this goes for @kg01 as well apparently that rebuilding does not have to mean tanking. You subtract enough talent from a team you will lose organically enough to keep from making the playoffs.

I understand that.  What I'm saying is that you want us to tank but keep talking around it.

[Sothron]

Just now, kg01 said:

I understand that.  What I'm saying is that you want us to tank but keep talking around it.

Not if you mean tanking by getting rid of ALL current assets. If you mean rebuilding around Dennis, Prince and whatever we draft while letting the older vets walk or trade them? Yep, all behind that. If you mean tanking by getting rid of Dennis and Prince and literally starting all over again? No, not behind that.

[Peoriabird]

19 minutes ago, Bankingitbig said:

Not sure if Indy truly tanked, as PG was selected at #10, which has been their highest pick since picking #7 in 1989. In fact, I feel like Indy did almost opposite of what tanking is in terms of trying to get high picks and build through the draft. They traded their 2011 first round pick (Kawhi Leonard) for George Hill and traded their 2014 first round pick for Luis Scola....

Don't think I have seen anyone calling tanking an exact science. Think it is a case by case basis.

Wasn't Myles Turner the 9th pick in last years draft? But anyway posters were touting any lottery pick including Kobe and Klay Thompson...Heck AHF even included Iguadala in his research paper regarding finals MVPs

[Peoriabird]

7 minutes ago, DBac said:

Indiana got Paul George in 2010 and ascended from 32 wins to 56 over the first four years of his career. Then lost Paul George for the season right after that and got Myles Turner. Now their team is vastly different than those teams that made the ECF. Should've been steadier with building around PG and Myles IMO, didn't really look like they had a plan when they were just signing whatever 'name player' was available last year. Maybe they had an indication that PG wanted to go to LA.

IMO the stars that you can currently build a championship level team around are Lebron, Durant, Steph, Harden, Kawhi, and CP3. I'll probably catch hell for omitting Russ but his style of play doesn't really win. It's just not efficient enough. He could play on a championship team but he couldn't be your best player. Probably one of my favorite players in the NBA though. Lebron Durant and Steph are obvious. Harden is like Russ but more efficient. He might be a quitter though. CP3 is another one I'll catch hell for because he hasn't even been to the conference finals. IDK, his teams are consistently really damn good. He's really good too so I don't have a problem putting him up there. Just an unfortunate career for him. His health is getting concerning though. 

In the future you'll be able to win with Anthony Davis, Giannis Antetokounmpo, KAT, Joel Embiid (health permitting), and maybe still Kawhi. Of course there are more young players to be drafted soon.

CP3?  Didnt the Clipper try for 10 years to build around that dude with zero conference finals appearances. Plus getting their azzes handed to them by that treadmill team call Memphis?

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Sothron said:

Not if you mean tanking by getting rid of ALL current assets. If you mean rebuilding around Dennis, Prince and whatever we draft while letting the older vets walk or trade them? Yep, all behind that. If you mean tanking by getting rid of Dennis and Prince and literally starting all over again? No, not behind that.

That is tanking.

[Peoriabird]

9 minutes ago, DBac said:

Indiana got Paul George in 2010 and ascended from 32 wins to 56 over time

And yet that treadmill team call the Atlanta Hawks still out performed them by winning a high of 60 games

[Sothron]

Just now, kg01 said:

That is tanking.

No, it is not. That is rebuilding with youth and not having old veterans eating up minutes to go to young guys. You develop the young guys in your system and maintain financial flexibility for potential trades or free agents. That's a win/win rebuild model.

[Guest]

Just now, Sothron said:

No, it is not. That is rebuilding with youth and not having old veterans eating up minutes to go to young guys. You develop the young guys in your system and maintain financial flexibility for potential trades or free agents. That's a win/win rebuild model.

If you believe SausageSchlenk, that's basically what we're doing now.  The only difference is we're ok with keeping vets here as long as they have tradeable contracts.  That keeps us competitive enough to not totally turn off free agents.

Yeah, I get it, we're not a FA hotbed.  That doesn't mean you totally punt on that aspect of improving the team.

[DBac]

Just now, Peoriabird said:

CP3?  Didnt the Clipper try for 10 years to build around that dude with zero conference finals appearances. Plus getting their azzes handed to them by that treadmill team call Memphis?

More like 6, they've won 50 games all in 5 out of 6 years except for the lockout season where they won the equivilent of 50 games over a full 82 game season. He took that team from 32 wins to 50 wins instantly. This year they were without Blake and didn't miss a beat. I'll always rep CP3, he's a difference making player to any team in the NBA.

 

8 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

And yet that treadmill team call the Atlanta Hawks still out performed them by winning a high of 60 games

If the Hawks could churn out anything close to that regularly then they wouldn't be a treadmill team. Unfortunately they can't and they are. 

[Bankingitbig]

12 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

Wasn't Myles Turner the 9th pick in last years draft? But anyway posters were touting any lottery pick including Kobe and Klay Thompson...Heck AHF even included Iguadala in his research paper regarding finals MVPs

He was 11th.

8 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

CP3?  Didnt the Clipper try for 10 years to build around that dude with zero conference finals appearances. Plus getting their azzes handed to them by that treadmill team call Memphis?

Clippers have definitely underperformed, but they have also had some very bad luck in recent years due to injuries.

[Peoriabird]

1 minute ago, Bankingitbig said:

He was 11th.

Clippers have definitely underperformed, but they have also had some very bad luck in recent years due to injuries.

So we have to add bad luck and injury to our ever growing list of how to avoid being a treadmill team.  At this point, I might be happy being the treadmill team and by the way, Memphis consistently won 50 plus game per season and is still on the treadmill team list.

[DBac]

4 minutes ago, Bankingitbig said:

Clippers have definitely underperformed, but they have also had some very bad luck in recent years due to injuries.

Yeah. Lost Blake this year, lost the whole team the year before that. What was inexplicable was blowing a 3-1 lead to Josh Smith and the Houston Rockets after knocking off the Spurs in round 1. That's where I start to believe maybe CP3 just isn't meant to win ever. 

[DBac]

Injuries only hurt your championship window. Contenders are contenders, if you're a contender and you get hurt then better luck next year. Being a contender doesn't guarantee a ring, it gives you a legitimate chance.. which is all you can ask for. 

To be a contender you need excellent role players and at the least 1 bonafide star. Heat had Lebron, Wade, Bosh but also surrounded them with guys like Mike Miller and Shane Battier. Golden State has role players like Iguodala, West, Livingston. For a team that contended but didn't win, OKC from last year. Durant and Westbrook were the stars, but they also had guys like Roberson, Adams, Ibaka (he might've been a part of the big 3 earlier in his career but at this point he's just a supplemental guy). 

As you can see, it's not easy to build a championship level team. There's inherently a lot of luck involved. But after 10 years of nothingbombs, I'm ready for the team to really put their foot forth and go for it. 

Edited June 15, 2017 by DBac

[Peoriabird]

30 minutes ago, DBac said:

Injuries only hurt your championship window. Contenders are contenders, if you're a contender and you get hurt then better luck next year. Being a contender doesn't guarantee a ring, it gives you a legitimate chance.. which is all you can ask for. 

To be a contender you need excellent role players and at the least 1 bonafide star. Heat had Lebron, Wade, Bosh but also surrounded them with guys like Mike Miller and Shane Battier. Golden State has role players like Iguodala, West, Livingston. For a team that contended but didn't win, OKC from last year. Durant and Westbrook were the stars, but they also had guys like Roberson, Adams, Ibaka (he might've been a part of the big 3 earlier in his career but at this point he's just a supplemental guy). 

As you can see, it's not easy to build a championship level team. There's inherently a lot of luck involved. But after 10 years of nothingbombs, I'm ready for the team to really put their foot forth and go for it. 

If you consider Atlanta's last 10 years a nothing bomb there are a lot of playoffs teams such as the Clipper fall that fall in that category because the Hawks have been competitive with the Rockets of the world and have had just as much success as Boston and other team not named Cleveland, Golden State and San Antonio

[DBac]

7 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

If you consider Atlanta's last 10 years a nothing bomb the a lot of playoffs teams such as the the Clipper fall in that category because the Hawks have been competitive with the Rockets of the world and have had just as much success as Boston and other team not named Cleveland, Golden State and San Antonio

The Hawks have not had as much success as Boston over the last 10 years. Boston won a championship, went to another finals,  made another ECF, rebuilt and are better than the Hawks again within that timeframe. 

And yes, there are playoff teams that have no chance of winning a title as constructed. None have been stuck in this mode for 10 straight years like the Hawks. If you don't want to count the 2015, then 9 out of 10. But getting swept by the Cavs without Love or Kyrie takes a lot of wind out of their sails. Which circles back to why resigning Millsap would just be another commitment to mediocrity. 

[AHF]

2 hours ago, Peoriabird said:

For the record, Is PG a superstar and if so, why is Indy not a contender?

Asked and answered.  He is not.  He was close pre-injury and hasn't been in the conversation since.  He is good enough to be a second option on a championship team which is better than anything we have today but that doesn't move the needle enough for superstar status particularly when he is mentally checked out on his current team as noted above.

1 hour ago, Peoriabird said:

Plus it's funny that everyone is changing their tune about the amount of talent on Indy's team now...I seem to remember a lot of posters predicting Indy to challenge Cleveland in the conference finals at the beginning of the season because they added Teague but now they have no talent? Sounds like a Jeff Sessions testimony in front of congress to me. Lol!

Check my posts.  That team is crap around him and I said it before this year.  I had them bombing this season.  Where are they now other than PG?  Teague is a fine subpar starter (probably around #20 PG in the league).  Ellis is a disaster to pair with him - loser of a player and a defensive dream matchup for opponents.  Beyond that Turner is talented and then they've basically got nothing.

1 hour ago, Bankingitbig said:

Not sure if Indy truly tanked, as PG was selected at #10, which has been their highest pick since picking #7 in 1989. In fact, I feel like Indy did almost opposite of what tanking is in terms of trying to get high picks and build through the draft. They traded their 2011 first round pick (Kawhi Leonard) for George Hill and traded their 2014 first round pick for Luis Scola....

Don't think I have seen anyone calling tanking an exact science. Think it is a case by case basis.

All of this.

[AHF]

1 hour ago, Peoriabird said:

Wasn't Myles Turner the 9th pick in last years draft? But anyway posters were touting any lottery pick including Kobe and Klay Thompson...Heck AHF even included Iguadala in his research paper regarding finals MVPs

You don't bother reading my posts.  I listed Iggy as a finals MVP who WAS NOT drafted by the team that won the title.  That is rare.  Congrats on yet another straw man.

BTW - Turner was neither the 9th pick nor drafted last year.  Are you just making this stuff up at this point?

[Peoriabird]

1 minute ago, AHF said:

You don't bother reading my posts.  I listed Iggy as a finals MVP who WAS NOT drafted by the team that won the title.  That is rare.  Congrats on yet another straw man.

But you concluded he was yet another lottery pick to win the mvp...and your argument was to reinforce the need for lottery chosen players to win championships am I not right?