What's The Consensus?

[MaceCase]

1 hour ago, sillent said:

True anti tankers understand that every great team had to overcome some of the greatest teams to become great. The Bulls went thru many battles against the Pistons before reaching greatness. Lakers , Celtics, Miami, Cavs, Warriors all had to overcome something before they got there and the only way they got their is by climbing a mountain. You don't go from bottom all the way to the top by tanking. Spurs weren't tanking when they got Duncan just injured. Point is you have to be in it to win it and most tankers elect to not even try expecting some magical turn around after being horrible for years. There's no magical helicopter to the top of this mountain every team has to make the same climb. Some survive some fall off until there's only one.

It's a Marathon and you can't win a race that you haven't even started. There's no end before the beginning and less gratitude in skipping steps. How sad was it for Karl Malone and Gary Payton to still not get a ring chasing it with a super team in those days in LA ? Boogie may very well get one with the Warriors but it will be short lived.

As an anti tanker I'm not a fan of mediocrity either but how do you know what you're capable of if you don't even try to put forth your best effort? We call those quitters aka losers. Winners never quit just ask anybody that's ever done anything great.   

It is a marathon.  But you were running with a bum knee.  You're well behind the leader and progressively getting farther back from the pack.  With each progressive mile you run you are causing yourself further damage to your body yet.... you decide to keep running?  You imagine you'll catch your 80th wind and catch up to the rest of the runners?  A lightning bolt will strike everyone at the finish line allowing you to complete at whatever pace you do?  A fleet of condors will fly in and scoop you off to the finish line?

None of that will happen, you will fail to complete the race and even if you manage to crawl your way across that finish line you will be in no condition whatsoever to compete in the next marathon.  While others are ready for their next marathon and even while novices are training to run in their first marathon, you'll be in surgery.  Recuperation after that, and after that you'll be in rehab.  

You'll be months and years behind in your ability to even get yourself able to run another race and why?  All because of your stubbornness. Because you chose to ignore your body and the race around you with your "winners never quit" mentality.  Instead of recognizing the risk, getting your knee healthy, and ready to run the next marathon you told yourself "no, I'm going to run this race". 

[KB21]

41 minutes ago, MaceCase said:

It is a marathon.  But you were running with a bum knee.  You're well behind the leader and progressively getting farther back from the pack.  With each progressive mile you run you are causing yourself further damage to your body yet.... you decide to keep running?  You imagine you'll catch your 80th wind and catch up to the rest of the runners?  A lightning bolt will strike everyone at the finish line allowing you to complete at whatever pace you do?  A fleet of condors will fly in and scoop you off to the finish line?

None of that will happen, you will fail to complete the race and even if you manage to crawl your way across that finish line you will be in no condition whatsoever to compete in the next marathon.  While others are ready for their next marathon and even while novices are training to run in their first marathon, you'll be in surgery.  Recuperation after that, and after that you'll be in rehab.  

You'll be months and years behind in your ability to even get yourself able to run another race and why?  All because of your stubbornness. Because you chose to ignore your body and the race around you with your "winners never quit" mentality.  Instead of recognizing the risk, getting your knee healthy, and ready to run the next marathon you told yourself "no, I'm going to run this race". 

This is the typical stance of a quitter.

You never quit.  You keep pushing till you cross that finish line.  

The only thing quitting does is ensure that you will never win.  What the Hawks are doing is basically quitting since they couldn't beat a LeBron James lead team, which no other team in the East for the past 8 years has been able to do.  They then decided to sell the fanbase on the idea that they will get this mythical superstar player that is going to change the fortunes for the Hawks in the future, but to do it, they have to commit to losing for several years to get "enough bites of the apple" as Travis Schlenk puts it to get this mythical, generational star that will completely change the Hawks's fortune by himself.  

And many of the fans on this board have bought into to that empty hope that a championship lies at the end of this nauseating, deplorable process of intentional losing.  Those same fans ignore what history tells us about not just teams that tank but teams that dip down to the level that the Hawks are currently at.  You ignore the length of time it is going to take to just get back to where this team was before they decided to bottom out.

For example, the Orlando Magic decided to dip down after Dwight Howard.  They are still down.  Minnesota was down for 13 years.  Sacramento has been down for 12 years.  Phoenix has been down for 8 years now.  Even the mighty Golden State Warriors missed the playoffs during Steph Curry's first four seasons, and prior to their first playoff appearance with Curry, they had been only once between 1994 and 2012.  

[gurpilo]

We were going nowhere, we had to restructure.Now is going to be much easier to get FA here if we have a team full of talent, Collins, Prince, Len, hopefully Young and Huerter and also Spellman are steps on the right direction, if we manage to add another 2 good pieces next year, suddenly you have a strong core of 8 players, add a good FA and suddenly you are considered as an attractive destination.

[MaceCase]

29 minutes ago, KB21 said:

This is the typical stance of a quitter.

You never quit.  You keep pushing till you cross that finish line.  

 

Of couuuuuuuuuuurse a doctor would say never quit to a patient with a physical ailment.  "Now look here, son.  You got a touch of the 'torn Achilles' but that's no reason why you can't go out there and win 'State!  Now git on out of my office and no I ain't gone write you a note!"

[turnermx]

Good analogy!

[gurpilo]

If we are going to be so bad next year we will be

Trae Young

Barrett/Huerter

Prince

Collins/Spellman

Gafford/Len

Sounds good to me on paper, I think in 2 years 

Collins can be a 18 ppg, 12 rpg, 1bpg, 1spg

Prince can be a 18 ppg, 5 rpg, 3apg, 2spg

Young can be a 15 ppg, 9apg, 1spg

Huerter, Len and Spellman can be role players.

If we are so bad that we manage to land a top pick 1st or 2nd and land Barrett or Reddish and Gafford or Bol... and suddenly you have 5 quality players and 3 good role players any FA would consider Atlanta as Jimmy Butler considered Minnesota with much less talent

[nathan2331]

Exactly and the only way to know if you've maxed out is to put forth maximum effort!!

We did. We were getting progressively worse since 2014, it was time to pull the plug. Maybe y'all are fine being the 6 seed, but after 12 years I'm glad we decided to rebuild. We were never going to win a championship with Paul Millsap as our best player. Why pay him 30 million a year to score 15 ppg? Collins might eclipse him this season honestly.

 

Y'all anti-tankers have no ambition to win a championship. None at all. We were on the playoff treadmill for 12 years and you'd be fine with another 12 years of winning nothing so long as we made the playoffs. Waste of time. This rebuild might put us in a worse position, but it could see us draft a future Finals MVP. That's what happens when up your hopes in some highschoolers turning pro. What I do know is that no one has any plan on how we were going to turn the 2016-2017 Hawks into a contender in the future.

[KB21]

29 minutes ago, nathan2331 said:

We did. We were getting progressively worse since 2014, it was time to pull the plug. Maybe y'all are fine being the 6 seed, but after 12 years I'm glad we decided to rebuild. We were never going to win a championship with Paul Millsap as our best player. Why pay him 30 million a year to score 15 ppg? Collins might eclipse him this season honestly.

 

Y'all anti-tankers have no ambition to win a championship. None at all. We were on the playoff treadmill for 12 years and you'd be fine with another 12 years of winning nothing so long as we made the playoffs. Waste of time. This rebuild might put us in a worse position, but it could see us draft a future Finals MVP. That's what happens when up your hopes in some highschoolers turning pro. What I do know is that no one has any plan on how we were going to turn the 2016-2017 Hawks into a contender in the future.

Naive, empty hope.  You have bought into the tanking philosophy, hook, line, and sinker.  I have a lot more ambition to win championships because I realize that bad teams don't win championships, and you have to be in the playoffs to have a chance.

The Hawks could have signed Paul Millsap to the same deal he got from Denver.  That deal would not have kept the Hawks from having flexibility and the ability to go into the 2019 free agency market..  We could have off loaded Dwight's contract when he had one year left and gotten more value than moving down in the draft, ultimately out of range to get a Jawun Evans or Jordan Bell.  We would still have John Collins, who would be in a position to learn under Paul Millsap instead of being thrown out there to fail.  We would still have Taurean Prince, would be better as a tertiary scorer rather than the main scoring option.  Paul also had a positive influence on Dennis, so if you keep him, maybe you don't lose Dennis's focus.  Also, had we kept Millsap, Mike Budenholzer would most certainly still be here.

The second worst thing this franchise has ever done is hire Travis Schlenk and his tanking philosophy as GM.  The worst was firing Danny Ferry over nothing.

[nathan2331]

Naive, empty hope.  You have bought into the tanking philosophy, hook, line, and sinker.  I have a lot more ambition to win championships because I realize that bad teams don't win championships, and you have to be in the playoffs to have a chance.

The Hawks could have signed Paul Millsap to the same deal he got from Denver.  That deal would not have kept the Hawks from having flexibility and the ability to go into the 2019 free agency market..  We could have off loaded Dwight's contract when he had one year left and gotten more value than moving down in the draft, ultimately out of range to get a Jawun Evans or Jordan Bell.  We would still have John Collins, who would be in a position to learn under Paul Millsap instead of being thrown out there to fail.  We would still have Taurean Prince, would be better as a tertiary scorer rather than the main scoring option.  Paul also had a positive influence on Dennis, so if you keep him, maybe you don't lose Dennis's focus.  Also, had we kept Millsap, Mike Budenholzer would most certainly still be here.

The second worst thing this franchise has ever done is hire Travis Schlenk and his tanking philosophy as GM.  The worst was firing Danny Ferry over nothing.

 

Naive, empty hope.  You have bought into the tanking philosophy, hook, line, and sinker.  I have a lot more ambition to win championships because I realize that bad teams don't win championships, and you have to be in the playoffs to have a chance.

The Hawks could have signed Paul Millsap to the same deal he got from Denver.  That deal would not have kept the Hawks from having flexibility and the ability to go into the 2019 free agency market..  We could have off loaded Dwight's contract when he had one year left and gotten more value than moving down in the draft, ultimately out of range to get a Jawun Evans or Jordan Bell.  We would still have John Collins, who would be in a position to learn under Paul Millsap instead of being thrown out there to fail.  We would still have Taurean Prince, would be better as a tertiary scorer rather than the main scoring option.  Paul also had a positive influence on Dennis, so if you keep him, maybe you don't lose Dennis's focus.  Also, had we kept Millsap, Mike Budenholzer would most certainly still be here.

The second worst thing this franchise has ever done is hire Travis Schlenk and his tanking philosophy as GM.  The worst was firing Danny Ferry over nothing.

 

Why would you pay Paul Millsap 30 million? He's not that good. Even at his peak he isn't worth the money, and you're saying that after a down year in Denver. Charlotte moved Dwight for scraps, so I fail to see where we could ever expect to get value for him. And if you have Millsap and Collins, why would you draft Jordan Bell? I agree that not tanking would've kept Dennis focused and I agree the Prince should not be a primary scorer, and I even agree that it would be nice for Collins to have played with Millsap, but at the end of the day those changes wouldn't take us anywhere close to a championship.

 

Paying Millsap 30 million would have eaten up our cap space. We would not have been able to bring any meaningful free agent then. How are you winning with that roster?

[KB21]

2 minutes ago, nathan2331 said:

 

 

 

Why would you pay Paul Millsap 30 million? He's not that good. Even at his peak he isn't worth the money, and you're saying that after a down year in Denver. Charlotte moved Dwight for scraps, so I fail to see where we could ever expect to get value for him. And if you have Millsap and Collins, why would you draft Jordan Bell? I agree that not tanking would've kept Dennis focused and I agree the Prince should not be a primary scorer, and I even agree that it would be nice for Collins to have played with Millsap, but at the end of the day those changes wouldn't take us anywhere close to a championship.

 

Paying Millsap 30 million would have eaten up our cap space. We would not have been able to bring any meaningful free agent then. How are you winning with that roster?

I 100% would have given Paul $30 million a season for two seasons with a team option for the third season, because he is that good.  His impact on winning games is far greater than a lot of the bigger name players.  Even if the team with Millsap doesn't win a championship, it is far more competitive than the shit show that was on the court this past season and the shit show that we will see this season.

[EazyRoc]

5 minutes ago, KB21 said:

I 100% would have given Paul $30 million a season for two seasons with a team option for the third season, because he is that good.  His impact on winning games is far greater than a lot of the bigger name players.  Even if the team with Millsap doesn't win a championship, it is far more competitive than the shit show that was on the court this past season and the shit show that we will see this season.

What are you basing his “impact” on ?

[nathan2331]

 

 

I 100% would have given Paul $30 million a season for two seasons with a team option for the third season, because he is that good.  His impact on winning games is far greater than a lot of the bigger name players.  Even if the team with Millsap doesn't win a championship, it is far more competitive than the shit show that was on the court this past season and the shit show that we will see this season.

 

What's competitive about first and second round exits? Your "plan" is a joke. There is no doubt that Millsap plays winning basketball, but he is limited. Just like everyone else on the team was. How are you upgrading?!!!

 

The team wasn't good enough to win a championship, why try again? Underdogs don't win championships in the NBA, so why should we care about another fruitless playoff run when it's what we've been doing for the past 12 years? We know how the story ends. That Wizards series was disgusting, the team was overdue for a rebuild. There was no way to improve the talent we had, and you continue to prove that point by your failure to suggest otherwise.

[KB21]

1 minute ago, nathan2331 said:

 

 

 

 

What's competitive about first and second round exits? Your "plan" is a joke. There is no doubt that Millsap plays winning basketball, but he is limited. Just like everyone else on the team was. How are you upgrading?!!!

 

The team wasn't good enough to win a championship, why try again? Underdogs don't win championships in the NBA, so why should we care about another fruitless playoff run when it's what we've been doing for the past 12 years? We know how the story ends. That Wizards series was disgusting, the team was overdue for a rebuild. There was no way to improve the talent we had, and you continue to prove that point by your failure to suggest otherwise.

How have the Hawks improved their talent by tanking?  They haven't.  That's the honest answer to the question.  They got the same player they probably would have been able to get had they won a few more games and drafted 9th with the 5th pick.  Kevin Huerter wasn't a pick acquired by tanking.  

The Hawks are definitely younger, and apparently to you, younger means more talented.  So, instead of competing and giving everything the organization has to winning, we are just quitting because "Poor little ole us can't beat LeBron James."

[KB21]

10 minutes ago, EazyRoc said:

What are you basing his “impact” on ?

Paul was 14th in RPM wins in 2014-2015, 11th in RPM wins in 2015-2016, and 16th in 2016-2017.  Paul had been a top 15 player in the NBA relative to his contribution to winning consistently over his final three seasons in Atlanta.  I have very little doubt that without an injury this past year, he would have been in the top 15-20 in the league.  

[nathan2331]

How have the Hawks improved their talent by tanking?  They haven't.  That's the honest answer to the question.  They got the same player they probably would have been able to get had they won a few more games and drafted 9th with the 5th pick.  Kevin Huerter wasn't a pick acquired by tanking.  

The Hawks are definitely younger, and apparently to you, younger means more talented.  So, instead of competing and giving everything the organization has to winning, we are just quitting because "Poor little ole us can't beat LeBron James."

Paul was 14th in RPM wins in 2014-2015, 11th in RPM wins in 2015-2016, and 16th in 2016-2017.  Paul had been a top 15 player in the NBA relative to his contribution to winning consistently over his final three seasons in Atlanta.  I have very little doubt that without an injury this past year, he would have been in the top 15-20 in the league.  

 

How have the Hawks improved their talent by tanking?  They haven't.  That's the honest answer to the question.  They got the same player they probably would have been able to get had they won a few more games and drafted 9th with the 5th pick.  Kevin Huerter wasn't a pick acquired by tanking.  

The Hawks are definitely younger, and apparently to you, younger means more talented.  So, instead of competing and giving everything the organization has to winning, we are just quitting because "Poor little ole us can't beat LeBron James."

 

It's been one year? How can you ask that question when it's been one year and we failed to trade Horford and Millsap for assets wen we had the chance (not Schlenk's fault). All we have to show for the rebuild so far is Trae.

 

Paul was 14th in RPM wins in 2014-2015, 11th in RPM wins in 2015-2016, and 16th in 2016-2017.  Paul had been a top 15 player in the NBA relative to his contribution to winning consistently over his final three seasons in Atlanta.  I have very little doubt that without an injury this past year, he would have been in the top 15-20 in the league.  

 

Kyle Korver was #12 in 2014. Paul Millsap was key to the success we did have, but he is not worth 30 million. He's just not that good.

[KB21]

3 hours ago, MaceCase said:

Of couuuuuuuuuuurse a doctor would say never quit to a patient with a physical ailment.  "Now look here, son.  You got a touch of the 'torn Achilles' but that's no reason why you can't go out there and win 'State!  Now git on out of my office and no I ain't gone write you a note!"

Then we realize that having to sit out with an injury is very different than quitting.  

[KB21]

1 minute ago, nathan2331 said:

 

 

 

It's been one year? How can you ask that question when it's been one year and we failed to trade Horford and Millsap for assets wen we had the chance (not Schlenk's fault). All we have to show for the rebuild so far is Trae.

 

 

 

Kyle Korver was #12 in 2014. Paul Millsap was key to the success we did have, but he is not worth 30 million. He's just not that good.

Of course he isn't.  He isn't flashy and doesn't have shoe commercials, so he must not be as good as his numbers indicate.

Paul isn't a self promoter.  He's just a nose to the grindstone player who focuses only on what he can do to help the team win, and that's exactly what I want in a star player.  I don't want someone who wants all the attention and is a "me, me, me" player.

[nathan2331]

Of course he isn't.  He isn't flashy and doesn't have shoe commercials, so he must not be as good as his numbers indicate.

Paul isn't a self promoter.  He's just a nose to the grindstone player who focuses only on what he can do to help the team win, and that's exactly what I want in a star player.  I don't want someone who wants all the attention and is a "me, me, me" player.

Why would I care about how marketable Millsap is? He doesn't make me any money. I don't need ESPN to tell me what I can see with my own two eyes. We would have never won a championship with him as our best player and you won't deny that statement because you can't. We would not have been able to add a better player than Millsap either so when would our fortunes change? That is a simple question that you can't answer. Call me a loser all you want, it doesn't change the fact that the Hawks were going nowhere.

[KB21]

1 minute ago, nathan2331 said:

7 minutes ago, KB21 said:

Of course he isn't.  He isn't flashy and doesn't have shoe commercials, so he must not be as good as his numbers indicate.

Paul isn't a self promoter.  He's just a nose to the grindstone player who focuses only on what he can do to help the team win, and that's exactly what I want in a star player.  I don't want someone who wants all the attention and is a "me, me, me" player.

 

Why would I care about how marketable Millsap is? He doesn't make me any money. I don't need ESPN to tell me what I can see with my own two eyes. We would have never won a championship with him as our best player and you won't deny that statement because you can't. We would not have been able to add a better player than Millsap either so when would our fortunes change? That is a simple question that you can't answer. Call me a loser all you want, it doesn't change the fact that the Hawks were going nowhere.

A lot sooner than they are going to change now.

[nathan2331]

A lot sooner than they are going to change now.

Thank you for proving my point that the Hawks were going nowhere.