What is Doing a Rebuild Right... Anyway??

[High5]

7 hours ago, Diesel said:

You're an example of my sentiment.   Personally, I don't care about Budget.  Its not my money.  I just care about Acheivement.  So now we got this new Young Under 21 team.  Your statement (to me) says that the Bar has been set above the 2nd round right??  Because if they just make it to the 2nd round... then it's IYWs... Pointless. 

You've always seemed to ignore the existence of the salary cap. People don't care about the money. People care about the money being used within the salary cap to build a contender and not to max out on mediocrity. Which is where we were before Schlenk got here.

Edited September 5, 2019 by High5

[Diesel]

7 hours ago, hazer said:

The bar has definitely been set well above the 2nd round, Schlenk has minced no words in consistently declaring championships are the goal. As they should be. 2nd round will just be a nice stop along the way, never should it be the end game. Especially as the ceiling of an aging roster on a treadmill who salaried out over $100mill collectively with their new teams.

So what happens if we never make it past the second round?  Talent for Talent.. There are at least 2 teams (Bucks, Pacers, Nets) that are more talented than us and will be for some time.  Nets eventually will stand in our way to the championship. 

[Diesel]

57 minutes ago, High5 said:

You've always seemed to ignore the existence of the salary cap. People don't care about the money. People care about the money being used within the salary cap to build a contender and not to max out on mediocrity. Which is where we were before Schlenk got here.

I don't care about the money because if we could have kept the 60 win team intact for one more run, I would have paid it.  I care how the money is structured and when we decide to negotiate but do I care about Paying Sap because he's produced and still producing.. No.   I lived under the Babcock don't let your stars get old on you mantra.  Let me tell you.. that doesn't work. 

[Diesel]

Quote

The first and least forgettable of his miscues could be described by Hawks fans as no less than a treasonous act. On February 24, 1994, Babcock traded team icon and fan favourite Dominique Wilkins and a conditional first round draft pick (1994 no. 25 overall, Greg Minor) to the Los Angeles Clippers in exchange for Danny Manning.

The “Human Highlight Film” had been averaging 24.4 points, 6.2 rebounds and 2.3 assists to start the season, while leading the Hawks to a 36-16 record.

He was selected to his eighth All-Star game that season, and left Atlanta as the franchise’s all-time leading scorer with over 23,000 points.

Manning, who became a free agent to conclude the season opted against re-signing with the team. In response, Babcock released a statement saying that, “In-house, we asked ourselves the question, ‘Would we do this if we knew Danny would not be back?’ It was unanimous on our staff that it was worth making the deal.”

The Atlanta faithful disagreed.

 

[AHF]

Babcock’s trade of Nique is NOT an issue with Schlenk’s philosophy.  That team had the most wins in the Eastern Conference and with Jordan playing baseball it represented our best chance at a ring.  Babcock wasn’t a moron for wanting to keep the team young.  He was a moron for (among other things) not realizing when the moment to strike had arrived and that you don’t trade your best player for an unproven youngster (who isn’t even locked into a long term deal) when the time for a ring arrives.  The Hawks were well past the point of going for it when they tore down to rebuild under Schlenk.  

The best parallel I can give to what Babcock did  would be if during our 60 win season we had traded Horford for Harrison Barnes.  Not perfect but Manning was so mediocre - like a 17 per and 0.067 ws/48 type of “meh” production.

[Spud2nique]

35 minutes ago, AHF said:

The best parallel I can give to what Babcock did  would be if during our 60 win season we had traded Horford for Harrison Barnes. 

That’s a pretty good ☝.  

Danny Manning was one of my least favorite Hawks of all time. It’s not even his fault it’s just trading one of my idols for him to play 26 regular season games with us and leave as a free agent to the Suns still makes me sick to my stomach.

 

[High5]

1 hour ago, Diesel said:

I don't care about the money because if we could have kept the 60 win team intact for one more run, I would have paid it.  I care how the money is structured and when we decide to negotiate but do I care about Paying Sap because he's produced and still producing.. No.   I lived under the Babcock don't let your stars get old on you mantra.  Let me tell you.. that doesn't work. 

OK, but we couldn't keep the 60 win team intact. You have to operate in reality. Ferry pieced together a great squad and we had our shot before the contracts got nasty. We were a sinking ship after that. Paying Sap wouldn't have done anything except delay the inevitable rebuild. I don't know why we're still talking about this. 

[JayBirdHawk]

8 hours ago, AHF said:

Babcock’s trade of Nique is NOT an issue with Schlenk’s philosophy.  That team had the most wins in the Eastern Conference and with Jordan playing baseball it represented our best chance at a ring.  Babcock wasn’t a moron for wanting to keep the team young.  He was a moron for (among other things) not realizing when the moment to strike had arrived and that you don’t trade your best player for an unproven youngster (who isn’t even locked into a long term deal) when the time for a ring arrives.  The Hawks were well past the point of going for it when they tore down to rebuild under Schlenk.  

The best parallel I can give to what Babcock did  would be if during our 60 win season we had traded Horford for Harrison Barnes.  Not perfect but Manning was so mediocre - like a 17 per and 0.067 ws/48 type of “meh” production.

 

7 hours ago, Spud2nique said:

That’s a pretty good ☝.  

Danny Manning was one of my least favorite Hawks of all time. It’s not even his fault it’s just trading one of my idols for him to play 26 regular season games with us and leave as a free agent to the Suns still makes me sick to my stomach.

 

I've told my tales of that Nique trade...first ever Hawks game, excited to see the Human Highlight Film, I wake up, it's game day....the Hawks trade Nique for Manning, SMDH. 

Interesting comments from Bawb's recent interview:

Holman: We had been swept by the Knicks with half the team hurt. That was the year the Knicks got (Latrell) Sprewell after he strangled P.J. Carlesimo.
Rathbun: Stan decides that we don’t want any Boy Scouts on our team. We want our own bad boy, but we got the wrong one. If we had kept that team together, (Michael) Jordan left the next year to go play baseball. We would have been in the Eastern Conference finals.
Holman: That started us on a nine-year spiral of not making the playoffs.

[JayBirdHawk]

7 hours ago, High5 said:

OK, but we couldn't keep the 60 win team intact. You have to operate in reality. Ferry pieced together a great squad and we had our shot before the contracts got nasty. We were a sinking ship after that. Paying Sap wouldn't have done anything except delay the inevitable rebuild. I don't know why we're still talking about this. 

Dog days of Summer?

[Spud2nique]

2 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

I've told my tales of that Nique trade...first ever Hawks game, excited to see the Human Highlight Film, I wake up, it's game day....the Hawks trade Nique for Manning, SMDH.

That’s so sad . I remember you telling us. I knew it was the last day of the trade deadline and I kept checking CNN headline news updates for my basketball trade news as they didn’t have internet, or I didn’t just yet then in 94. 

I remember it was like 5:20 or 5:50 pm not sure which, but they always did the sports news 20 and 50 past the hour.

I knew that if they didn’t mention any huge Hawks trades that we were in the clear and on our way to meet the Knicks then Rockets in the finals and hear the voice of one ☝ Van Earl Wright (he spoke sooooo fast).. he covers all the baseball and football news and at the very end says;

The Atlanta Hawks have traded Dominique Wilkins to the Los Angeles Clippers for Danny Manning. My dropped..  

[Spud2nique]

2 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Dog days of Summer?

yup. But we do open up a key 4 game set at Suntrust today vs the Nats. Sturt has been eyeing this series for about a month. 

[Diesel]

16 hours ago, AHF said:

Babcock’s trade of Nique is NOT an issue with Schlenk’s philosophy.  That team had the most wins in the Eastern Conference and with Jordan playing baseball it represented our best chance at a ring.  Babcock wasn’t a moron for wanting to keep the team young.  He was a moron for (among other things) not realizing when the moment to strike had arrived and that you don’t trade your best player for an unproven youngster (who isn’t even locked into a long term deal) when the time for a ring arrives.  The Hawks were well past the point of going for it when they tore down to rebuild under Schlenk.  

The best parallel I can give to what Babcock did  would be if during our 60 win season we had traded Horford for Harrison Barnes.  Not perfect but Manning was so mediocre - like a 17 per and 0.067 ws/48 type of “meh” production.

I will grant you that Manning wasn't Nique and the time was all wrong but that was the Babcock Mantra... Never let your stars get old on you.  He did the same to Willis and Deke.   While Travis would rather go the route of trading players for Picks.  Underneath it's still the same thing.   Trade a star player for Capital and Cap room before the star is too old to get you anything in return.   It's Page 1 of the firesale handbook that all GMs get.   Babcock's edition of the Firesale Book said You may also trade Star Players for Young players.   Sometimes he whiffed, sometimes he hit.. but his main thing was also trade a star at their peakvalue. 

 

[Diesel]

15 hours ago, High5 said:

OK, but we couldn't keep the 60 win team intact. You have to operate in reality. Ferry pieced together a great squad and we had our shot before the contracts got nasty. We were a sinking ship after that. Paying Sap wouldn't have done anything except delay the inevitable rebuild. I don't know why we're still talking about this. 

I think we failed before the offseason.   Somehow, while we were winning, somebody should have tried to get an extension.  If not.. then a trade should have been in order. 

 

 

[AHF]

21 minutes ago, Diesel said:

I will grant you that Manning wasn't Nique and the time was all wrong but that was the Babcock Mantra... Never let your stars get old on you.  He did the same to Willis and Deke.   While Travis would rather go the route of trading players for Picks.  Underneath it's still the same thing.   Trade a star player for Capital and Cap room before the star is too old to get you anything in return.   It's Page 1 of the firesale handbook that all GMs get.   Babcock's edition of the Firesale Book said You may also trade Star Players for Young players.   Sometimes he whiffed, sometimes he hit.. but his main thing was also trade a star at their peakvalue. 

 

It isn't the same at all.  

Babcock traded Dominique Wilkins the face of the franchise in a season where we were challenging for a title with Jordan off the court.  Trading him destroyed our best chance for a ring and tore the soul of the franchise away from the fans.

Schlenk traded away Dwight Howard and Dennis Schröder from a team that was overpaid and would have struggled to merely make the playoffs let alone contend for anything of substance.  Since they were traded, Howard has been passed around and trashed by multiple teams because he has demonstrated himself to be a disruptive force that isn't worth the salary or hassle.  Schröder has shown himself to be a career backup.  What was the great loss here?

 

The last time to rebuild is when you are trying to win a ring.  The best time to rebuild is when your team's core players have all reached their potential, are overpaid and aren't winning anything of any importance.

So just because two guys shoot a 3 doesn't mean that they are equivalents when: (1) one is shooting a 30 foot 3pter when the opposition is behind them, they have an open lane to the net and they are down by 1 and (2) when the other is down by 3, has a clear look at the basket from 24 feet and is holding the ball with 3 seconds left on the clock.  One of those is a smart move.  The other is idiotic.

[High5]

2 hours ago, Diesel said:

I think we failed before the offseason.   Somehow, while we were winning, somebody should have tried to get an extension.  If not.. then a trade should have been in order. 

 

 

There should have been trades, but that would have led to a rebuild as well. It just would have happened sooner. But it's unlikely we'd be in as good of a position as we're in now. So I wouldn't waste anymore time dwelling on the past. It's an exciting time to be a Hawks fan.

[JayBirdHawk]

2 hours ago, Diesel said:

I will grant you that Manning wasn't Nique and the time was all wrong but that was the Babcock Mantra... Never let your stars get old on you.  He did the same to Willis and Deke.   While Travis would rather go the route of trading players for Picks.  Underneath it's still the same thing.   Trade a star player for Capital and Cap room before the star is too old to get you anything in return.   It's Page 1 of the firesale handbook that all GMs get.   Babcock's edition of the Firesale Book said You may also trade Star Players for Young players.   Sometimes he whiffed, sometimes he hit.. but his main thing was also trade a star at their peakvalue. 

 

Which star player did we trade in this rebuild?  That's right...there wasn't one.

2 hours ago, Diesel said:

I think we failed before the offseason.   Somehow, while we were winning, somebody should have tried to get an extension.  If not.. then a trade should have been in order. 

 

 

Ferry signed both Millsap and DMC to two year contracts, under the terms of the CBA, they were not eligible to be offered extensions DURING that season. So no trying to get extension.

And before anyone faults DF for not signing them to longer term deals. Several reports indicated DF originally offered Sap a 4 year deal which he declined, he bet on himself and got a big deal after the 2 year deal. I saw only one article indicating DMC was also offered maybe a 3 yr deal.

 

Wait...are you saying trade one of Sap or DMC during the 60 win season? Or did you mean the year following?

[Diesel]

3 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Which star player did we trade in this rebuild?  That's right...there wasn't one.

Ferry signed both Millsap and DMC to two year contracts, under the terms of the CBA, they were not eligible to be offered extensions DURING that season. So no trying to get extension.

And before anyone faults DF for not signing them to longer term deals. Several reports indicated DF originally offered Sap a 4 year deal which he declined, he bet on himself and got a big deal after the 2 year deal. I saw only one article indicating DMC was also offered maybe a 3 yr deal.

 

Wait...are you saying trade one of Sap or DMC during the 60 win season? Or did you mean the year following?

No.  What Travis did was Classic Firesale.   But some of the things he has done is Babcockish.   I mean we trade Millsap for J Craw and then we buy Craw out.  We traded for Melo and then we waived him.   At no time did we consider trying to flip either of these guys for something.  Just waive city and buyout city.  That's Babcockish reasoning. 

 

 

 

[High5]

 

I'll let someone else take that one.

[JayBirdHawk]

14 minutes ago, Diesel said:

No.  What Travis did was Classic Firesale.   But some of the things he has done is Babcockish.   I mean we trade Millsap for J Craw and then we buy Craw out.  We traded for Melo and then we waived him.   At no time did we consider trying to flip either of these guys for something.  Just waive city and buyout city.  That's Babcockish reasoning. 

 

 

 

Millsap was set to leave for nothing since Denver has capspace to sign Millsap outright.

The deal for Crawford was about getting a 1st round pick from the Clippers.

Quote

This is a big win for the Hawks, who were set to lose Millsap for nothing. Crawford has reportedly expressed an interest in being bought out rather than joining the rebuilding Hawks, but even if that's the case Atlanta still gets Stone, a young big man with some rotation potential, and the 2018 first-round pick.

 

[AHF]

18 minutes ago, Diesel said:

No.  What Travis did was Classic Firesale.   But some of the things he has done is Babcockish.   I mean we trade Millsap for J Craw and then we buy Craw out.  We traded for Melo and then we waived him.   At no time did we consider trying to flip either of these guys for something.  Just waive city and buyout city.  That's Babcockish reasoning. 

 

 

 

You are trolling with this, right?  You know good and well that both Craw and Melo were toxic contracts that teams had to give us first round picks to accept.  Not only did we think about whether they had trade value very carefully, but so did the teams that tried to flip each of them and only came to us with draft assets to entice us to take them after finding not a single team in the league who wanted them on their deals.  When you look at the contracts they signed after being cut, it shows how large the gap was between their contract price and their market value.  Impossible to move without attaching assets to entice a trade partner as the teams that paid us demonstrated quite clearly.