KB's thoughts on team building

[macdaddy]

Just now, KB21 said:

Well, they have at least been competing for a playoff spot in every single season and not top 5 draft picks.

Which is the difference.  I just hate watching vet teams play 30-40 win ball.   In my mind watching guys who just aren't going to get any better play average or worse basketball sucks.   I'd much rather watch potential stars.   But i get that we're different in that.

Truly it will be an interesting comparison over the next 2-3 years to see which team is closer to contending.  Might be neither!

[NBASupes]

20 minutes ago, AHF said:

Bud is good; credit to him.  The team is deep; credit to Jon Horst.  But Giannis is the guy you should be name checking with that team.

Big time. Bud is a great gameday coach. Easily the best we have ever had. I still question his ability to adjust in the playoffs. That's always been my big area with him and his stubbornness in general. 

Bud was a triple threat. Tactician, Developmental coach and has a great system but if you didn't fit it, you were a goner. I see what KB is saying with Bud at times. I think he's overrated in terms of KB and LP is underrated in terms of KB but I see what he likes. When he said he had Brandon Clarke in the top 5 of his list. I did too but I even wrote, he's a system guy and would be PERFECT in Bud's system. I keep saying, he's the next DMC with Shawn Marion athleticism. Once he adjust to the wing, he could be an All NBA type. 

So I saw a lot in Clarke and when KB said that, I probably think KB sees the game like Bud saw it and doesn't see it like LP sees it. When I see it the way they both see it. Just different formulas, that's all. For most, Brandon Clarke isn't it. He wasn't for us. LP saw him as a 5 who's built like Klay Thompson, it was never going to work. 

Taylor Jenkins who helped develop DMC in Atlanta and is a Bud protege saw him like Bud would see DMC. Potential SF in this system, could be a special player down the road. Especially in Bud's and now Memphis player/ball movement heavy system. 

In that system, Cam Reddish would be a tough fit.  Defensively, he would be fine like Bembry was in Bud's system but for Bud's system, he is too turnover prone, would need to be a sharp decision maker, and would need to be versatile as a scorer. Meaning, efficiency is king in Bud's system.

In our PDS heavy PnR heavy system, ball movement is critical but player movement it isn't. It's a mistake prone system. It's all about the skills and ability of the players on-ball skills. Can they play with the ball in their hands is the most critical element of this system for a wing. As a big, they must be big. Do dirty work, set a shitload of screens, play tough, get rebounds, and defend like a mad man. Since LP system is based on switches, you have to be good at communication and be able to move your feet at all times. 

In this system, Cam Reddish has superstar potential. In Bud's system, he will be glued to the bench and eventually traded or cut. But for Brandon Clarke, it's not much different. Clarke would get the College Park treatment in Atlanta, but in Memphis, he's a pace to eventually be a high end, 3/D wing who can score efficiently and move off the ball well on 1-5 principles. DMC was the only other wing I knew who could do that. 

 

So KB, I don't think you are f***ing idiot, I just think you are one track minded and the track LP/TS just doesn't flow with you. For me, it's all about impact and championships so I am happy af with our direction as a franchise. I love both LP and TS. I see what they are doing and I agree with it 100%. While I was not on page with BudCox. With Ferry, I wasn't due to his drafting. It was bad for any system he wanted to run. TS is elite at drafting for the system he wants to run. It's night and day and now he's starting to add vets who run this system at a high level. 

I honestly think Capela has Tyson Chandler or better in NY potential in this system. Woody ran that exclusive PnR heavy system in NY that LP is running here and Chandler was a monster in it for them. I can see that for Clint in Atlanta. 

Bud runs a complex defensive scheme. Versatility, switching it up on the fly, Bud system is tough to master and highly effective at times. I can see the benefit of it. An truly advanced switch scheme is elite as well. Philly ran one with LP. DET ran one when Larry Brown and Woody was there. I think Atlanta is on the right track to becoming elite in this league. That's why I am 100% optimistic on our future. 

Edited February 6, 2020 by NBASupes

[KB21]

Miami is getting another one of my favorites in Jae Crowder.   Excellent bench piece for them. I sit back and watch what they are doing with envy while I watch the Hawks continue to overvalue picks. 

[KB21]

15 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Big time. Bud is a great gameday coach. Easily the best we have ever had. I still question his ability to adjust in the playoffs. That's always been my big area with him and his stubbornness in general. 

Bud was a triple threat. Tactician, Developmental coach and has a great system but if you didn't fit it, you were a goner. I see what KB is saying with Bud at times. I think he's overrated in terms of KB and LP is underrated in terms of KB but I see what he likes. When he said he had Brandon Clarke in the top 5 of his list. I did too but I even wrote, he's a system guy and would be PERFECT in Bud's system. I keep saying, he's the next DMC with Shawn Marion athleticism. Once he adjust to the wing, he could be an All NBA type. 

So I saw a lot in Clarke and when KB said that, I probably think KB sees the game like Bud saw it and doesn't see it like LP sees it. When I see it the way they both see it. Just different formulas, that's all. For most, Brandon Clarke isn't it. He wasn't for us. LP saw him as a 5 who's built like Klay Thompson, it was never going to work. 

Taylor Jenkins who helped develop DMC in Atlanta and is a Bud protege saw him like Bud would see DMC. Potential SF in this system, could be a special player down the road. Especially in Bud's and now Memphis player/ball movement heavy system. 

In that system, Cam Reddish would be a tough fit.  Defensively, he would be fine like Bembry was in Bud's system but for Bud's system, he is too turnover prone, would need to be a sharp decision maker, and would need to be versatile as a scorer. Meaning, efficiency is king in Bud's system.

In our PDS heavy PnR heavy system, ball movement is critical but player movement it isn't. It's a mistake prone system. It's all about the skills and ability of the players on-ball skills. Can they play with the ball in their hands is the most critical element of this system for a wing. As a big, they must be big. Do dirty work, set a shitload of screens, play tough, get rebounds, and defend like a mad man. Since LP system is based on switches, you have to be good at communication and be able to move your feet at all times. 

In this system, Cam Reddish has superstar potential. In Bud's system, he will be glued to the bench and eventually traded or cut. But for Brandon Clarke, it's not much different. Clarke would get the College Park treatment in Atlanta, but in Memphis, he's a pace to eventually be a high end, 3/D wing who can score efficiently and move off the ball well on 1-5 principles. DMC was the only other wing I knew who could do that. 

 

So KB, I don't think you are f***ing idiot, I just think you are one track minded and the track LP/TS just doesn't flow with you. For me, it's all about impact and championships so I am happy af with our direction as a franchise. I love both LP and TS. I see what they are doing and I agree with it 100%. While I was not on page with BudCox. With Ferry, I wasn't due to his drafting. It was bad for any system he wanted to run. TS is elite at drafting for the system he wants to run. It's night and day and now he's starting to add vets who run this system at a high level. 

I honestly think Capela has Tyson Chandler or better in NY potential in this system. Woody ran that exclusive PnR heavy system in NY that LP is running here and Chandler was a monster in it for them. I can see that for Clint in Atlanta. 

Bud runs a complex defensive scheme. Versatility, switching it up on the fly, Bud system is tough to master and highly effective at times. I can see the benefit of it. An truly advanced switch scheme is elite as well. Philly ran one with LP. DET ran one when Larry Brown and Woody was there. I think Atlanta is on the right track to becoming elite in this league. That's why I am 100% optimistic on our future. 

Here’s my beliefs:

1.  The only focus in any sport should be on winning and the traits that help you win games.

2.  Young players should not be relied upon to play heavy minutes.  They should have to earn their minutes.  Me me look foolish for not playing you when you get the opportunity to play.  No team should have player development as the top focus for the organization.  The top focus should be on winning and having those players develop those winning habits.

3.  I want smart players who are not going to make mistakes on the floor.

4.  The team is more important than the individual.  I’d rather see 5 players who fit well together than have one guy who runs the show while everyone else watches.  This is the part of that 60 win team that I loved.  Those guys fit together, played well together, and was the ultimate representation of team basketball.  Players have to sacrifice individual accomplishments for the betterment of the team.

5.  Free agency should be used to retain the guys you develop within your system, and to identify players who fit your system who have traits that are undervalued by the market.  The best free agent signing Atlanta has ever made was Paul Millsap, IMO, because he had traits that were undervalued and fit what the Hawks wanted to do.  

6.  The draft should be used to strengthen the end of your bench with an eye towards those players stepping forward in 3-4 years as they learn and develop within the system and learn how to play winning basketball.

[AHF]

2 minutes ago, KB21 said:

The best free agent signing Atlanta has ever made was Paul Millsap, IMO, because he had traits that were undervalued and fit what the Hawks wanted to do.  

 

This was a great signing.  But best ever?

[NBASupes]

Just now, AHF said:

This was a great signing.  But best ever?

Easily Deke or Iso Joe for me. I know Iso was a SnT but was easily the best. He saved BK ass for sure

[AHF]

Just now, NBASupes said:

Easily Deke or Iso Joe for me. I know Iso was a SnT but was easily the best. He saved BK ass for sure

I do categorize Joe as a trade given the assets we had to give up.

[NBASupes]

5 minutes ago, KB21 said:

Here’s my beliefs:

1.  The only focus in any sport should be on winning and the traits that help you win games.

2.  Young players should not be relied upon to play heavy minutes.  They should have to earn their minutes.  Me me look foolish for not playing you when you get the opportunity to play.  No team should have player development as the top focus for the organization.  The top focus should be on winning and having those players develop those winning habits.

3.  I want smart players who are not going to make mistakes on the floor.

4.  The team is more important than the individual.  I’d rather see 5 players who fit well together than have one guy who runs the show while everyone else watches.  This is the part of that 60 win team that I loved.  Those guys fit together, played well together, and was the ultimate representation of team basketball.  Players have to sacrifice individual accomplishments for the betterment of the team.

5.  Free agency should be used to retain the guys you develop within your system, and to identify players who fit your system who have traits that are undervalued by the market.  The best free agent signing Atlanta has ever made was Paul Millsap, IMO, because he had traits that were undervalued and fit what the Hawks wanted to do.  

6.  The draft should be used to strengthen the end of your bench with an eye towards those players stepping forward in 3-4 years as they learn and develop within the system and learn how to play winning basketball.

1. That's the goal, I am not sure that's the only focus. Pop never believed winning should be the only focus. But coaches who failed like Scott Skiles and Coach Thibs did. Winning was everything to those guys.

2. I completely disagree. I think their is a time and place for everything. If winning is all that matters, the Lakers and Heat are literally the best teams to roof for. They don't believe in anything less but those two teams attract superstars and stars as well. Teams like the Hawks sometimes have to take two steps back to take ten steps forward. The issue is, taking two steps back so often you get stuck like SAC and MIN.

3. So does everyone in professional sports. Limiting mistakes is the key and most vets tend to do it better than the kids. 

4. I agree with that. Team success is the only way you can win games. Trae is proving that right now for us.

5. Iso Joe and Deke for me

6. If you have established core, I agree, at the moment, Atlanta is building to that.

[gHost83]

19 minutes ago, KB21 said:

I would have taken Brandon Clarke at 10 over Reddish.  

Brandon Clarke is a great fit and nice player for Memphis but he's already matured. Dude will be 24 in a few months. I would much rather have a guy with Cam's upside at age 20 than Clarke at 23. You have seen the flashes from Cam. Clarke will be a solid player but Cam has Star upside. I'm pretty sure when Cam is 23 going on 24, which will be in 2023, we will have the better player...

Besides, he's a smaller Collins. We needed a wing and got the best one available.

[KB21]

1 minute ago, gHost83 said:

Brandon Clarke is a great fit and nice player for Memphis but he's already matured. Dude will be 24 in a few months. I would much rather have a guy with Cam's upside at age 20 than Clarke at 23. You have seen the flashes from Cam. Clarke will be a solid player but Cam has Star upside. I'm pretty sure when Cam is 23 going on 24, which will be in 2023, we will have the better player...

Besides, he's a smaller Collins. We needed a wing and got the best one available.

Brandon Clarke is a better player, period.  

Cam’s upside is something that is completely subjective at this point, and based on history, I’m not sure there is any player who started his career as bad as what Cam did this year and still went on to become a superstar.  Clarke is also a better athlete than Cam Reddish as well.  

[Threezus]

39 minutes ago, KB21 said:

I would have taken Brandon Clarke at 10 over Reddish.  

Funny you should say that as i had Clarke at 17 without any trade ups to us.   I do like Clarke but no where near as much as reddish's upside.  I feel both of their end games is not even close to each other and if reddish hits his it's not even a debate.   The other guy people liked alot to us i didn't want at 10 was Hayes and im still not that big of a fan of his. 

[KB21]

11 minutes ago, Threezus said:

Funny you should say that as i had Clarke at 17 without any trade ups to us.   I do like Clarke but no where near as much as reddish's upside.  I feel both of their end games is not even close to each other and if reddish hits his it's not even a debate.   The other guy people liked alot to us i didn't want at 10 was Hayes and im still not that big of a fan of his. 

I like Clarke’s upside better as well.  For Cam to even come close to hitting this theoretical upside some of you have placed on him, he’s going to have to start doing things he has never shown to be capable of doing such as finishing at the rim, becoming a better decision maker with the ball in his hands, becoming a more consistent perimeter shooter....etc.

To me, Clarke is a great athlete who is showed elite level rim protection in college.  He has the ability to defend 1-5, and there was some untapped perimeter shooting equity in his game based on his college days.  

[KB21]

18 minutes ago, gHost83 said:

Clarke is basically a finished product man. Cam has upside through the roof and is over 3 years younger. It's not a debate...

So because Cam is younger, he has more upside?   Since when is a 23 year old player maxed out?   Particularly one who has shown a trend of improvement and is an elite level athlete. 

[NBASupes]

2 hours ago, KB21 said:

So because Cam is younger, he has more upside?   Since when is a 23 year old player maxed out?   Particularly one who has shown a trend of improvement and is an elite level athlete. 

I disagree with the opinion Clarke is maxed out. I think he has ample potential to be better as a player than he is right now especially in that system under Jenkins.

That said Cam Reddish has more potential. Not due to age because I believe JJJ is very young and is near his ceiling like Marvin but due to his talent, system fit, potential be an exceptional two way wing and superstar within our current system. That said, Clarke will be special in time as well. Grand slam for both teams.

I am sky high on both Clarke and Reddish. 

Edited February 18, 2020 by NBASupes

[KB21]

You know what I remember?  I remember that this team is 15-41 in year three of this "rebuild".  

[KB21]

3 hours ago, RedDawg#8 said:

It takes a legit skillset  to continuously find something negative to say in response to positive posts.

At this point you just have to ignore the noise/hate.
 

This was my favorite All Star Weekend. 15’ was special too because of the overall season, but our guys didn’t really do anything memorable beside check in to the game together at one point. 
Trae is a lightning rod for eyes and attention. One day he is going to be our most popular player outside of just Hawks fans, right up there with Nique.

 

 

Forgive me if I don’t consider individual accomplishments as a positive when there is nothing remotely positive about the success of the team.  

[KB21]

4 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

In year two of a rebuild it's awesome that we have a 21 year old starting and excelling in the all star game.   Number 1 on the list was getting a star player.  We've done that.    Thanks Trae!

Year three.  

[macdaddy]

Just now, KB21 said:

Year three.  

We weren't building in what you are calling year 1.  there is 1 player left from then.  we started building last year.  

Doesn't matter.  We have an star player and a lot of potential.  Glad i'm not watching Dennis and Hardaway start for this team anymore.

[KB21]

Just now, macdaddy said:

We weren't building in what you are calling year 1.  there is 1 player left from then.  we started building last year.  

Doesn't matter.  We have an star player and a lot of potential.  Glad i'm not watching Dennis and Hardaway start for this team anymore.

I'd be glad to still have Dennis, Tim, and Paul on this roster because we wouldn't be 15-41 with those three in the line up and Bud coaching.

[enrique]

6 minutes ago, KB21 said:

I'd be glad to still have Dennis, Tim, and Paul on this roster because we wouldn't be 15-41 with those three in the line up and Bud coaching.

You are aware those 3 players would cost us 64 million this year alone.