KB's thoughts on team building

[gurpilo]

hace 2 minutos, KB21 dijo:

OK.  Let's keep the pick and wait several more years to compete.  Let's see how long it takes anyone drafted in the top 5 of the 2020 draft to get to 3 plus WAR for a season.

Seriously if you think Poetl and Carroll are going to make this team compete you have a serious problem. 
 

perhaps is time to accept no matter what we do this summer we will not win 60 games next year but if we keep doing things like these years in 2-3 years we can be competing for conference finals. We are investing in future and I will say one last time, it took GSW 5 years to compete, we are in year 2. 

[KB21]

2 minutes ago, AHF said:

You have legitimately diverted threads from their topics.  (Almost) nobody looking to stop you from posting.  Focus has been on letting people dialogue about the OP's topic rather than going down the rabbit hole of whether building through the draft is smart or not.  And you know that since we had to create a separate thread for that due to the same issue in the past.  We can all continue that discussion here.

Yeah, because everyone knows that discussing anything that pertains to a trade that may or may not happen doesn't have anything to do with building the roster.  Don't say we need to get players that can help the team win in an actual trade topic thread or discuss why too much value is being put on unknown quantities when it is in reference to the team's lack of desire to move said unknown quantity for a known quantity.  It all has to be put here in this thread.

The biggest issue here is that I have been right every step of the way about this rebuild, and there are several on here that cannot stand that fact.  

[KB21]

6 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Cool!

Because that's exactly what the Hawks with their own 1st round pick this year, so no use repeating the same thing over and over and over. Just let it be.

As a result of their intense desire to collect top 5 picks, they will continue to collect top 5 picks instead of wins.

4 minutes ago, gurpilo said:

Seriously if you think Poetl and Carroll are going to make this team compete you have a serious problem. 
 

perhaps is time to accept no matter what we do this summer we will not win 60 games next year but if we keep doing things like these years in 2-3 years we can be competing for conference finals. We are investing in future and I will say one last time, it took GSW 5 years to compete, we are in year 2. 

They are pieces that can make this team better through the rest of this season as well as into next season.  That top 5 picks isn't going to do jack shit to help this team win in 2021.

[AHF]

6 minutes ago, KB21 said:

Yeah, because everyone knows that discussing anything that pertains to a trade that may or may not happen doesn't have anything to do with building the roster.  Don't say we need to get players that can help the team win in an actual trade topic thread or discuss why too much value is being put on unknown quantities when it is in reference to the team's lack of desire to move said unknown quantity for a known quantity.  It all has to be put here in this thread.

The biggest issue here is that I have been right every step of the way about this rebuild, and there are several on here that cannot stand that fact.  

You predicted that a team tearing down to the studs would struggle in the first few years of their rebuild.  That is neither novel nor controversial.  That is, in fact, how a rebuild is designed to work.  We saw it with the Cubs, we saw it with the Braves, we saw it with the Astros, we saw it with the Sixers, etc.  Everyone knows that you are going to struggle when you tear down by design. 

Whether your predictions about the rebuild bear out or not have yet to be seen because the real area of disagreement is whether teams that do this are doomed to never enjoy success again by virtue of having tainted themselves by tanking.  The real question is whether the improvement is capable of coming or not.  So I'd say you need to look more broadly at the teams that do this and see if they are all doomed to failure or not.  I don't think anyone thinks that all teams that tear down will be successful.  Instead, proponents believe that some teams will be successful and be able to get elite talent they would not otherwise have been able to get and others will find themselves living in the lottery and what differentiates them is the intelligence of management and the quality of scouting.  

Of course, we all care most about how this turns out for the Hawks.  We've got our bet on that for next year so we can see how it sorts itself out.

[KB21]

This team is sitting here with a 13-38 record in year three of this "rebuild", and there is very little evidence that suggests it is going to get better without significant additions to the roster relative to the veteran players on the roster.

26 minutes ago, gurpilo said:

Seriously if you think Poetl and Carroll are going to make this team compete you have a serious problem. 
 

perhaps is time to accept no matter what we do this summer we will not win 60 games next year but if we keep doing things like these years in 2-3 years we can be competing for conference finals. We are investing in future and I will say one last time, it took GSW 5 years to compete, we are in year 2. 

BTW, this is year THREE of the rebuild, with no end of losing in sight.

[Gray Mule]

13 minutes ago, KB21 said:

 

BTW, this is year THREE of the rebuild, with no end of losing in sight.

 

Ah, but there is hope that with whatever moves that the Hawks make before Thursday night and the moves that they make this summer - Trades, free agents and the draft - Will push this team over the line from where they are now.  Everyone agrees that the Hawks are in need of a new center.  Hang on.  One is on the way before next season.

Whatever year this is of the rebuild, most, but not all, posters believe that our young lads will improve with experience.  That's what separates the rookies from the vets - experience.  How much time elapses between being a rookie and vet?  

The foundation has now been laid.  Hawks had no solid foundation and, as a result they had to tear everything away.  Time is our friend as we build.  We ain't there yet.  But, we're gaining on it !!

 

[KB21]

11 minutes ago, Gray Mule said:

Ah, but there is hope that with whatever moves that the Hawks make before Thursday night and the moves that they make this summer - Trades, free agents and the draft - Will push this team over the line from where they are now.  Everyone agrees that the Hawks are in need of a new center.  Hang on.  One is on the way before next season.

Whatever year this is of the rebuild, most, but not all, posters believe that our young lads will improve with experience.  That's what separates the rookies from the vets - experience.  How much time elapses between being a rookie and vet?  

The foundation has now been laid.  Hawks had no solid foundation and, as a result they had to tear everything away.  Time is our friend as we build.  We ain't there yet.  But, we're gaining on it !!

 

It's becoming pretty apparent that nothing is actually going to happen at the trade deadline.  So, who are we going to draft in the 2021 lottery since it is apparent that Travis Schlenk will not do anything to improve the team for now.

[macdaddy]

4 hours ago, KB21 said:

I never said anything about a championship, but this team also wouldn't be cycling through top 5 draft positions in the lottery on a yearly basis if they had simply just tweaked that roster.  

Assuming you think championship is the goal then where do you go from a over the cap, over the hill 8th seed headlined by Dennis, Sap, Hardaway.  How do you get there from that?  

Eh. why do i even bother.   

[KB21]

1 minute ago, macdaddy said:

Assuming you think championship is the goal then where do you go from a over the cap, over the hill 8th seed headlined by Dennis, Sap, Hardaway.  How do you get there from that?  

Eh. why do i even bother.   

Miami has done it.  In fact, they have passed by everyone's darling tanking team and are a legitimate championship contender in the East.  In fact, Philly should probably just trade Embiid and Simmons and tank for the next 5 years again.

[Lurker]

I still don’t feel like there was anything significant there to do to improve from 16/17, honestly. Hardaway Jr is still Hardaway Jr, he’s a nice volume 3 point shooter at times but doesn’t really do a whole lot else and Millsap hasn’t really been what he was in Atlanta since leaving. What should be discussed first there is Al Horford and the decision for him to walk, which he had apparently decided at the ASB.

At this point you can be in the camp that feels like 16/17 wasn’t going to improve and question Schlenk at the same time though, which is where I’m at. I’ve indicated in other posts that I’m not happy with him and honestly, he’s at the point that Coppy was for me in 2017 already, where I was beginning to feel apathetic about him. Maybe the Braves were better positioned with talent that was closer to ready, but it sure felt like to me that Coppy was going to fail in making the moves to connect the dots on a helping out a team moving to competing (and also that Acuna really bailed out that rebuild by exploding).

Schlenk must be on notice in the offseason, there’s no question about it. This must be it, as far as I care, there’s zero excuses after this season, if he intentionally wants to continue with drafting in the high lottery for a couple more seasons and burn a chance in FA in the offseason after, he needs to pack it up, leave the state, and go back west. So, to me, it’ll be interesting to see the offseason moves more than anything. I actually don’t think the playoffs are necessary, but you NEED to see full season progress and not another absolutely garbage November (like 35-36 wins spread out over a full year…okay with how bad the east is, that might be enough sadly, still think they need to contract the playoffs, but I’m not drowning in basketball like I am with college football).

Edited February 5, 2020 by Lurker

[AHF]

56 minutes ago, KB21 said:

Miami has done it.  In fact, they have passed by everyone's darling tanking team and are a legitimate championship contender in the East.  In fact, Philly should probably just trade Embiid and Simmons and tank for the next 5 years again.

You hate the 76ers so much after they made you miss prediction after prediction a few years ago (they will have a losing record - NOPE; they will miss the playoffs - NOPE; they will get beat 4-0 in the first round - NOPE).  Now they are on pace to be the kind of team you love with >60% wins every year and in the playoffs every year with no end in sight for their playoff run.  You are talking up an Atlanta team that had a projected 39 wins and was lucky to squeak into the playoffs and bashing much better teams that built a way you don't like.  I'll take Simmons + Embiid + Harris + Horford, etc. >>>>>>> Sap + THJr + Prince + Dennis, etc.

IMO, absent some big change the East only has one contender this year and it is Milwaukee.  Any other team making it to the finals is going to get waxed by the West without putting up much of a fight.  

[Lurker]

To add on, to act like how the Miami Heat do, we'd have honestly had to even revamp from what was going on with the Bud organization. Two of their young players went freaking undrafted. Duncan Robinson started out at Williams and he's now a top shooter in the NBA. Incredible stuff, but it requires ELITE ELITE scouting. Which I don't think the Hawks had on a non-NBA level in the Bud organization.

[Gray Mule]

13 hours ago, KB21 said:

It's becoming pretty apparent that nothing is actually going to happen at the trade deadline.  So, who are we going to draft in the 2021 lottery since it is apparent that Travis Schlenk will not do anything to improve the team for now.

Oops!  Guess the Hawks did make a move after all.  Atlanta now has one of the better centers in the east and he's signed for a reasonable amount for more than a year.

[High5]

15 hours ago, KB21 said:

BTW, this is year THREE of the rebuild, with no end of losing in sight.

 

Need some help there, bud? 

[KB21]

2 hours ago, Gray Mule said:

Oops!  Guess the Hawks did make a move after all.  Atlanta now has one of the better centers in the east and he's signed for a reasonable amount for more than a year.

I like Capela, but he's not a great fit with John Collins, who will be eligible for his rookie extension this summer.  The best fit alongside John would be a big center who can defend and space the floor.  Capela is a great defender, but his offensive strength is the same as what John's best offensive strength is.  That mix is going to cause some congestion inside.  What you will see is John's rate of corner three point shots increase, but you are taking him away from what he does best by making him more of a spot up guy in the corner so Clint Capela can be your roll man.

This team is still a very long way from competing for the playoffs.  There is still too much reliance upon young players, and the front office still shows that they value draft picks and potential entirely too much.  There is a lot more that has to be done before this team is competitive.  

[Thomas]

JC will be in his fourth year next season and very hopefully with no suspension, Trae and Kevin will be in their third year and the three talented rooks will not be rookies next season. Some strength gained this offseason for a future All Star in Cam and we will start off much, much better with good health involved. Get and stay healthy Clint. Don't think we will be in a desperate catch up situation to make the playoffs next season though it quite likely goes down to the wire.

[NBASupes]

Collins and Capela are completely different even if they are both best as roll men. 

Capela is a screen setting machine. Both on and off the ball and just focuses on those functions at all times along with rebounding and boxing out. When Houston stopped valuing on ball screens as much, Capela value strunk offensively. 

Collins is an elite movement big. He is constantly moving, looking for spots to take advantage of the defensive coverage and gets himself into scoring opportunities. Think Karl Malone in a sense without the high end post ups. 

 

Assuming it's a bad fit because both are roll men would be a mistake. This is a much better fit than Turner and Sabonis. Not a perfect fit but a very good fit. That said, this is a perfect fit for Trae, Cam, and De'Andre 

Edited February 5, 2020 by NBASupes

[KB21]

2 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Collins and Capela are completely different even if they are both best as roll men. 

Capela is a screen setting machine. Both on and off the ball and just focuses on those functions at all times along with rebounding and boxing out. When Houston stopped valuing on ball screens as much, Capela value strunk offensively. 

Collins is an elite movement big. He is constantly moving, looking for spots to take advantage of the defensive coverage and gets himself into scoring opportunities. Think Karl Malone in a sense without the high end post ups. 

 

Assuming it's a bad fit because both are roll men would be a mistake. This is a much better fit than Turner and Sabonis. Not a perfect fit but a very good fit. That said, this is a perfect fit for Trae, Cam, and De'Andre 

Turner and Sabonis are both better fits alongside John because of their ability to space the floor.  IMO, the Hawks should have offered their own first round pick to Indiana for Myles Turner to pair with John Collins.  I know Indiana apparently asked for John in the initial talks, but Travis should have floated that pick that will end up being used on a player that will not help the team win in 2021.  

[macdaddy]

15 hours ago, KB21 said:

Miami has done it.  In fact, they have passed by everyone's darling tanking team and are a legitimate championship contender in the East.  In fact, Philly should probably just trade Embiid and Simmons and tank for the next 5 years again.

I"m not going to let this slide.  Even if you accept the theory that Miami is a contender this year (which is very suspect).   They are on year SIX of their "retooling" with vets.   This is very weak. 

[PSSSHHHRRR87]

12 minutes ago, KB21 said:

I like Capela, but he's not a great fit with John Collins, who will be eligible for his rookie extension this summer.  The best fit alongside John would be a big center who can defend and space the floor.  Capela is a great defender, but his offensive strength is the same as what John's best offensive strength is.  That mix is going to cause some congestion inside.  What you will see is John's rate of corner three point shots increase, but you are taking him away from what he does best by making him more of a spot up guy in the corner so Clint Capela can be your roll man.

This team is still a very long way from competing for the playoffs.  There is still too much reliance upon young players, and the front office still shows that they value draft picks and potential entirely too much.  There is a lot more that has to be done before this team is competitive.  

This would be credible if JC had been playing with Len, Bruno, and Jones since coming back from suspension and being ineffective... but he's averaging a dub-dub. Collins can hit the three and plays a lot of PnR/GnG.  Collins and Capela on offense will work and is not the same as Monroe/Drummond disaster.