KB's thoughts on team building

[KB21]

26 minutes ago, Blunt91 said:

You know Ingram is an Allstar reserve this year right?

Popularity contest.  

[JayBirdHawk]

2 minutes ago, KB21 said:

Popularity contest.  

The coaches think he's popular?

[TheNorthCydeRises]

1 hour ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Is Atlanta an iconic franchise? Which Star player has ever wanted to come to Atlanta as a FA?

 

I'm an Icon . . . and I wanted to come to Atlanta as a free agent . . after everyone else didn't want me.

 

 

[JayBirdHawk]

1 minute ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

I'm an Icon . . . and I wanted to come to Atlanta as a free agent . . after everyone else didn't want me.

 

 

[AHF]

KB is right that a lot of teams get caught in a lottery "rinse and repeat" cycle for a long time.  I've seen data on that which I found convincing.

Also seen the data on how many teams not named LA have won titles without going into the top of the lottery for assets that were the foundation for their rebuild.  Almost all non-LA teams (and even several of them) are built out of a period of repeat lottery appearances.  Think about GS - they were in the lottery 17 out of 18 years prior to making the playoffs for the first time with their core.  When they won their first title their top 4 WS players were all drafted during the rebuild and 3 of the 4 were lottery picks (including their only homegrown MVP - Curry).  Their #5 and 6 WS players were acquired with draft assets from their rebuild (Ellis & Udoh in his 2nd year for Bogut and a pick for Iggy).  They got 5 consecutive lottery picks before making the playoffs and they missed on some but the ones they hit big on have been the foundation for the team (the splash brothers).

Also seen the data on how many teams won championships building from middle.  Basically, no one wins a ring building from the middle - like Houston is attempting to do (i.e., didn't first draft lottery assets that set the foundation and instead tried to stay near playoff contention without going to the top of the lottery while simultaneously building to a title). 

At the end of the day, you need a superstar to win a title and you can only get them by draft, trade or FA.  FA is off the table for the Hawks.  Trade is in play because of the draft assets they've acquired during the rebuild.  Draft is on the table because they've been in the lottery.  But there is a ton of variability around draft results which is why many of these teams stay in the lottery year after year - they don't make the right picks and the combination of bad drafting and bad management keeps them in a losing cycle.  But you don't get a ring by "trying to compete and rebuild" when you are in a place like the Hawks were when they tore down.  Nobody has done that.  Even the Pistons used lottery assets to get their core guys and they are the biggest exception in NBA history (the Rip, Chauncey, Wallaces, Prince team).

[Buzzard]

1 hour ago, AHF said:

At the end of the day, you need a superstar to win a title and you can only get them by draft, trade or FA.  FA is off the table for the Hawks.  Trade is in play because of the draft assets they've acquired during the rebuild.  Draft is on the table because they've been in the lottery.  But there is a ton of variability around draft results which is why many of these teams stay in the lottery year after year - they don't make the right picks and the combination of bad drafting and bad management keeps them in a losing cycle.  But you don't get a ring by "trying to compete and rebuild" when you are in a place like the Hawks were when they tore down.  Nobody has done that.  Even the Pistons used lottery assets to get their core guys and they are the biggest exception in NBA history (the Rip, Chauncey, Wallaces, Prince team).

I agree that once we blew the signing of Horford, the hope went with him to Boston. Even if we were not good enough with him to win a chip, he could have been a very valuable trade piece to gather some great assets with. He was our best asset and there was no recovering from him walking for nothing.

[AHF]

12 minutes ago, Buzzard said:

I agree that once we blew the signing of Horford, the hope went with him to Boston. Even if we were not good enough with him to win a chip, he could have been a very valuable trade piece to gather some great assets with. He was our best asset and there was no recovering from him walking for nothing.

It would have taken something amazing to put us on track for a championship but, like you, I was happy to see Ferry try it until he got canned for political reasons.  Budcox wasn't remotely up to the task.

[KB21]

I'm not sure why Cam Reddish is being treated as this budding star.  Outside of his defense, he has not  been good at all and wasn't good in his one year of college.  It is highly unlikely he reaches whatever ceiling some of you think he has.  I'd rather have Brandon Clarke, honestly.  

[NBASupes]

Just now, KB21 said:

I'm not sure why Cam Reddish is being treated as this budding star.  Outside of his defense, he has not  been good at all and wasn't good in his one year of college.  It is highly unlikely he reaches whatever ceiling some of you think he has.  I'd rather have Brandon Clarke, honestly.  

[HawkItus]

2 minutes ago, KB21 said:

I'm not sure why Cam Reddish is being treated as this budding star.  Outside of his defense, he has not  been good at all and wasn't good in his one year of college.  It is highly unlikely he reaches whatever ceiling some of you think he has.  I'd rather have Brandon Clarke, honestly.  

Can we at least give the man 2 years?

[KB21]

Think about that as the Hawks continue to spin in this lottery cycle with no immediate hope of getting out of it.

[NBASupes]

2 minutes ago, HawkItus said:

Can we at least give the man 2 years?

Don't even respond to his dumbass seriously. 

[AHF]

1 minute ago, KB21 said:

I'm not sure why Cam Reddish is being treated as this budding star.  Outside of his defense, he has not  been good at all and wasn't good in his one year of college.  It is highly unlikely he reaches whatever ceiling some of you think he has.  I'd rather have Brandon Clarke, honestly.  

He is one of the youngest players in the NBA and showed immediately he was NBA ready on defense.  That is really rare.  All the upside is with his offense where he was abysmal in college but has good tools.  We've seen incremental improvement already in that department.  If he puts it all together, he is a very exciting player who is worth a ton more than two guys who have shown they are valuable role players at their peak.

Split	Value	G	GS	MP	FG	FGA	3P	3PA	FT	FTA	ORB	TRB	AST	STL	BLK	TOV	PF	PTS	FG%	3P%	FT%	TS%	USG%	ORtg	DRtg	+/-	MP	PTS	TRB	AST
Month	October	5	5	126	9	43	1	18	7	8	3	23	11	8	1	10	9	26	.209	.056	.875	.279	19.1	63	103	-10.6	25.1	5.2	4.6	2.2
	November	12	10	280	32	100	12	43	19	25	7	37	18	7	4	20	23	95	.320	.279	.760	.428	19.1	82	120	-21.0	23.4	7.9	3.1	1.5
	December	14	6	397	46	128	18	58	21	28	11	59	22	17	7	26	25	131	.359	.310	.750	.467	17.6	86	111	-5.5	28.3	9.4	4.2	1.6
	January	14	9	387	58	141	27	67	24	29	9	54	19	15	8	19	45	167	.411	.403	.828	.543	18.2	102	114	-4.4	27.6	11.9	3.9	1.

[Buzzard]

1 minute ago, KB21 said:

I'm not sure why Cam Reddish is being treated as this budding star.  Outside of his defense, he has not  been good at all and wasn't good in his one year of college.  It is highly unlikely he reaches whatever ceiling some of you think he has.  I'd rather have Brandon Clarke, honestly.  

I too liked Clarke but understand why we chased Reddish. He shot over .400 from three in January. That shooting potential, defensive potential, and length is why we took a flyer on him. I am happy with Cam's progress so far. I just wish we could kick this injury bugs ass for the last half of the season.

[AHF]

Also KB, both players we are supposedly shopping Cam to acquire are available as UFAs this offseason which means we can get them without having to give up long-term assets and we would risk watching them walk if we traded for them.

[KB21]

2 minutes ago, AHF said:

He is one of the youngest players in the NBA and showed immediately he was NBA ready on defense.  That is really rare.  All the upside is with his offense where he was abysmal in college but has good tools.  We've seen incremental improvement already in that department.  If he puts it all together, he is a very exciting player who is worth a ton more than two guys who have shown they are valuable role players at their peak.

Split	Value	G	GS	MP	FG	FGA	3P	3PA	FT	FTA	ORB	TRB	AST	STL	BLK	TOV	PF	PTS	FG%	3P%	FT%	TS%	USG%	ORtg	DRtg	+/-	MP	PTS	TRB	AST
Month	October	5	5	126	9	43	1	18	7	8	3	23	11	8	1	10	9	26	.209	.056	.875	.279	19.1	63	103	-10.6	25.1	5.2	4.6	2.2
	November	12	10	280	32	100	12	43	19	25	7	37	18	7	4	20	23	95	.320	.279	.760	.428	19.1	82	120	-21.0	23.4	7.9	3.1	1.5
	December	14	6	397	46	128	18	58	21	28	11	59	22	17	7	26	25	131	.359	.310	.750	.467	17.6	86	111	-5.5	28.3	9.4	4.2	1.6
	January	14	9	387	58	141	27	67	24	29	9	54	19	15	8	19	45	167	.411	.403	.828	.543	18.2	102	114	-4.4	27.6	11.9	3.9	1.

He's not going to do anything to help this team win this year or next year.  You are putting entirely too much value on a theoretical ceiling that he is unlikely to ever meet.  

[AHF]

Just now, KB21 said:

He's not going to do anything to help this team win this year or next year.  You are putting entirely too much value on a theoretical ceiling that he is unlikely to ever meet.  

You  must have loved that Orlando trade of Sabonis and Oladipo for Ibaka.  Neither were ready to help the team immediately like Ibaka.  Win now, am I right?

[kg01]

3 minutes ago, Buzzard said:

I too liked Clarke but understand why we chased Reddish. He shot over .400 from three in January. That shooting potential, defensive potential, and length is why we took a flyer on him. I am happy with Cam's progress so far. I just wish we could kick this injury bugs ass for the last half of the season.

He'll never be any better than he is today.  Cam is as good as him now and has no ceiling to how much better he'll be.

[AHF]

7 minutes ago, KB21 said:

Think about that as the Hawks continue to spin in this lottery cycle with no immediate hope of getting out of it.

Think about what?  We were on the path to the lottery even if Budcox had stayed to guide us as Millsap entered FA.  The damage was already done.  Bud had the team on a rotten foundation and were lucky to have not been in the lottery that last year before we tore down.

[NBASupes]

8 minutes ago, AHF said:

He is one of the youngest players in the NBA and showed immediately he was NBA ready on defense.  That is really rare.  All the upside is with his offense where he was abysmal in college but has good tools.  We've seen incremental improvement already in that department.  If he puts it all together, he is a very exciting player who is worth a ton more than two guys who have shown they are valuable role players at their peak.

Split	Value	G	GS	MP	FG	FGA	3P	3PA	FT	FTA	ORB	TRB	AST	STL	BLK	TOV	PF	PTS	FG%	3P%	FT%	TS%	USG%	ORtg	DRtg	+/-	MP	PTS	TRB	AST
Month	October	5	5	126	9	43	1	18	7	8	3	23	11	8	1	10	9	26	.209	.056	.875	.279	19.1	63	103	-10.6	25.1	5.2	4.6	2.2
	November	12	10	280	32	100	12	43	19	25	7	37	18	7	4	20	23	95	.320	.279	.760	.428	19.1	82	120	-21.0	23.4	7.9	3.1	1.5
	December	14	6	397	46	128	18	58	21	28	11	59	22	17	7	26	25	131	.359	.310	.750	.467	17.6	86	111	-5.5	28.3	9.4	4.2	1.6
	January	14	9	387	58	141	27	67	24	29	9	54	19	15	8	19	45	167	.411	.403	.828	.543	18.2	102	114	-4.4	27.6	11.9	3.9	1.

JJJ went 3-10 and 0-2 from 3 and his D got hard when he saw him dunk on bad lateral defender and cross another terrible lateral defender in Maker but he wants to shit on Reddish who's superior talent wise. Got better court vision. A nice smooth stroke, none of that shotput shit. While he's not much of a jump-explosiveness guy, he's coordinated, fluid and fast af in the open court. 

Cam unlike JJJ has all of the tools and skills needed to be a professional scorer and an elite defender. He's not just a 3/D guy like JJJ. JJJ has a higher floor due to his run/jump abilities and what not but guys like Cam usually offensively last longer and come into their own by year 3 and even now, Cam's an impact to a degree. 

Edited February 4, 2020 by NBASupes