The elephant in the room

[NBASupes]

It's clear we have limitations with Cam/Hunter starting. The biggest is Cam's inconsistency and our offense just take a tumble but Hunter is a lot better. Cam handle the hardest perimeter matchups. Hunter deals with the most physical guys and even though Cam metrics defensive hit the cliff as we saw last year to start the season. Everyone around him is better for it because he forces tough shooting nights for stars and superstars across the league and honestly, he makes it possible for Hunter to do more on offense which is extremely difficult when he has to do everything on D to cover for both Bogi and Trae. Trae gets to hide on defense which benefits him on that end. 

Then the other issue is Kev and Bogi. This is our best starting punch but they are both rocking a -0.2 WAR and a -0.6 WAR. NOT Good. They are streaky and haven't gotten in a groove. So what can we do with these two. 

The question is, to we start Cam to make life A LOT easier for Hunter even at Cam's expense or do we start Kev knowing that he's struggling this year and with Capela's defensive regression, maybe our defense can't recover as we have last year. What's your take? 

At this point, Bogi and Hunter just ain't gonna work. To be honest, it never have. They struggled at the end of last year. They didn't play well together when Hunter was healthy and the Knicks series is fool's gold because we needed Hunter to lock down Randle more than we needed offensive contributions from him. They just don't fit at all. Kev and Cam have always been a tough fit as well, especially for Kev. At some point, we gotta realize, Cam/Hunter are a pair as is Bogi/Kev. 

[Spud2nique]

Ya, I made a similar thread, peep it.

 

[NBASupes]

5 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

Ya, I made a similar thread, peep it.

 

LOL, when I see Wingstop, I think about food and Kev ain't Euro. 

[niremetal]

Disappointed. Based on the title, I was expecting a thread about Zion.

[niremetal]

In all seriousness, I agree. I think that, as a rule, Bogi/Kev works better than Hunter/Bogi as starters. Like I posted before, the Bogi/Kev lineup was fire when we ran it last season.

For the Bogi/Kev lineup to work, Bogi really has to level back up on both ends to where he was last year. People remember his hot shooting, but he's also strong as an ox (if you've seen the dude shirtless, he's ripped) and has a crazy wingspan (6'11) for his height. He isn't the quickest player, but he is a physical, disruptive defender who can easily guard both 2s and 3s when he wants to. Problem is, it seems like he doesn't want to this year. The Euro foul seems like his only move.

The other problem is that Cam/Hunter have been hot poo when on the floor together. Offensively, they are just a wreck when paired. One of them has to become a reliable catch-and-shoot player for the pairing to work, I think.

Last thing: I do think the focus on who starts/comes off the bench is a false choice...or at least, it *should* be a false choice. In a perfect world, we could choose a "default" starting 5 and then have rotations dependent on opponent. If the other team has a tallish, high-usage perimeter player (looking at you, Randle and Doncic), we could sub out Kev and bring in Hunter early on. For the quicker wings, Cam could see more minutes with the starters. Etc.

Problem is that Nate seems wedded to these idiotic shift-change substitution patterns. I thought he had broken out that a couple times (late in the Knicks series and then a couple games back when he did lots of rotation tinkering). But it's clearly his preferred default method. And it kills us because it forces us to deploy suboptimal pairings even when the matchups seem to scream for something different. I just don't get it.

Edited November 13, 2021 by niremetal

[Spud2nique]

Our 2019 draft class is MIA. They still acting like rookies with the inconsistencies. Comon guys get it together, damn man. 
 

Hunter was damn near non existent vs the Nuggets, solo would have given us more last night.

Cam is going in the wrong direction as well. What the hell happened to Game 6 vs Bucks Cam? I know it’s playoff and you out it into another gear but bro we gotta get to the playoffs so you might wanna bust out some moves around now.

[Spud2nique]

7 hours ago, NBASupes said:

Kev ain't Euro. 

No mine was Bogi and Gallo I think. I said let’s pair up the Serb with the Italian. 

 

Kev is Albany, ancestors were European though! 

[NBASupes]

Just now, Spud2nique said:

Our 2019 draft class is MIA. They still acting like rookies with the inconsistencies. Comon guys get it together, damn man. 
 

Hunter was damn near non existent vs the Nuggets, solo would have given us more last night.

Cam is going in the wrong direction as well. What the hell happened to Game 6 vs Bucks Cam? I know it’s playoff and you out it into another gear but bro we gotta get to the playoffs so you might wanna bust out some moves around now.

He's not going in the wrong direction, he's just stuck. 

[Spud2nique]

1 minute ago, NBASupes said:

He's not going in the wrong direction, he's just stuck. 

Well when he was kickin a$$ in game 6 vs Bucks and the way he’s playing now, to me that’s down vs lateral.

[Hawkmoor]

The elephant in the room is Trae Young, AKA Russell Westbrook Junior.   The offense will never be efficient with Trae.  The Hawks don't have another GUY that demands the ball away from Trae.  Bogi was brought in to be that guy, but he isn't the answer.  As far as Hunter goes, his demeanor isn't to be the guy to demand the ball like he SHOULD.  Before the trade deadline, I would move Bogi, Galli and whoever else it takes outside of Hunter, Cam, Johnson, Collins, Okongwu and Young.  Everybody else is fair game to bring in another playmaker at 2 guard who can DEMAND the ball.  THATS the Hawks problem.  Below happens EVERY game.  Trae drives the lane with the whole defense collapsing, with Hunter over in the corner by himself.  He doesn't even BOTHER with waving his arms at times because Trae is NOT passing that ball:

 

Edited November 13, 2021 by Hawkmoor

[Spud2nique]

I’ve always defended Cam but this was the year to step up. Both him and Hunter. I have always been against dealing them but Trae needs some ready a$$ players so we can keep going to conference and nba finals. This timeline thing is not on par with Trae vs Cam and Hunter. Trae feels like he has to wait.

I honestly wish Utah sucked so we could trade Cam Gallo Huerter and parts for Donovan Mitchell.

At this point I’d consider Beal.. maybe.

[Spud2nique]

Just now, Hawkmoor said:

The elephant in the room is Trae Young, AKA Russell Westbrook Junior. 

No, this can’t be true because Trae is setting guys up and still getting his own, I mean he hasn’t been the best Trae but he’s not Russ, Russ was score first, Trae is pass first even though he’s perimeter score first if that makes sense.

[NBASupes]

7 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

Well when he was kickin a$$ in game 6 vs Bucks and the way he’s playing now, to me that’s down vs lateral.

He's kicked ass at times this year but he's been garbage too. I would honestly say, he struggled a lot more last year but helped the team more than this year where we get flashes of PG Cam and Gleague Cam. I would say, he was Gleague Cam more often on offense last year but he's much worse on defense this year than last year and its killing us. The question is, do we really gleague Cam on offense to get top defender Cam. He was much better on D last year when he metrics were much worse. His defensive metrics are being carried by The 2nd unit defense. Last year, Cam defensive metrics were Meh but he was critical for us on that end.

Edited November 13, 2021 by NBASupes

[NBASupes]

4 minutes ago, Hawkmoor said:

The elephant in the room is Trae Young, AKA Russell Westbrook Junior.   The offense will never be efficient with Trae.  The Hawks don't have another GUY that demands the ball away from Trae.  Bogi was brought in to be that guy, but he isn't the answer.  As far as Hunter goes, his demeanor isn't to be the guy to demand the ball like he SHOULD.  Before the trade deadline, I would move Bogi, Galli and whoever else it takes outside of Hunter, Cam, Johnson, Collins, Okongwu and Young.  Everybody else is fair game to bring in another playmaker at 2 guard who can DEMAND the ball.  THATS the Hawks problem.  Below happens EVERY game.  Trae drives the lane with the whole defense collapsing, with Hunter over in the corner by himself.  He doesn't even BOTHER with waying his arms at times because Trae is NOT passing that ball:

 

Trae could be the problem but he's not Westbrook Jr. Our half court offense is efficient. Our problem is the ball dont the move much and our defense doesn't create turnovers or get stops anymore.

Edited November 13, 2021 by NBASupes

[Spud2nique]

1 minute ago, NBASupes said:

He's kicked ass at times this year but he's been garbage too. I would honestly say, he struggled a lot more last year but helped the team more than this year where we get flashes of PG Cam and Gleague Cam. I would say, he he was Gleague Cam often on offense last year but he's much worse on defense this year than last year and its killing us. The question is, do we really gleague Cam on offense to get top defender Cam. He was much better on D last year when he metrics were much worse. His defensive metrics are being carried by The 2nd unit defense. Last year, Cam defensive metrics were Meh but he was critical for us on that end.

Ya that’s all true but I guess after seeing playing Cam my expectations may have been unrealistic to some degree but the inconsistency of play with him, Hunter, Bogi, Gallo.. they can’t all suck at the same time, that’s when we can’t win.

[Spud2nique]

We need a Terrell @terrell (not you homie ) Brandon type of backup point guard as well.

I’d kill for a Jalen Brunson. Head up 24/7 point guard who facilitates but then takes over when needed. Delon shows flashes but even he hasn’t taken full adv of his opportunity yet.

[JayBirdHawk]

47 minutes ago, niremetal said:

Problem is that Nate seems wedded to these idiotic shift-change substitution patterns.

This is the killer. It's like he has an aversion and stubborn refusal to playing certain lineups.

[JayBirdHawk]

1 hour ago, niremetal said:

Bogi really has to level back up on both ends to where he was last year.

He has to be fully healthy. We saw what an injured vs healthy Bogi looked like in the playoffs.

[JayBirdHawk]

@NBASupes what's this EPM stat?

 

 

 

[NBASupes]

57 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

@NBASupes what's this EPM stat?

 

 

 

Estimated plus minus. Like all of these metrics, its decent.