To my Siakam Fans....

[AHF]

11 hours ago, timebomb said:

But I think it could work with Trae actually deciding to move with out the ball more. Siakam would be another good passer to set up Trae and for that matter DJ or Bey for wide open looks. Siakam can also get CC looks outside the pick and rolls. Siakam usually starts his moves seemingly an endless amount of them pretty far out of the lane as he comes in at unpredictable angles that allow him to make all kinds of decisions with the ball. Yes he’s only shots 33% from three but he can keep defenders honest. 

Siakam often starts outside of the paint but they don’t have someone planted in the paint so he has the threat of driving to the hoop as a key element of his threat.  CC can’t function outside of the paint so what does he do when Siakam is probing the D where he doesn’t get in Siakam’s way?

[TheNorthCydeRises]

8 hours ago, AHF said:

Do you think Siakam and CC are a fit?  Seems like our spacing is actually worse when you swap JC for Siakam given Siakam's career 32.7% 3pt% and the fact that Siakam needs to not have the lane clogged to really cook.  But maybe I'm making incorrect assumptions about how Siakam likes to operate since I only see him a few times a year.

Siakam + CC is a better fit than Collins + CC

You could literally run a 4 / 5 pick and roll with Siakam and CC, if the Hawks really wanted to get creative.

 

But I have Siakam paired with OO, who I think needs to start this season.

6 hours ago, Diesel said:

This is interesting. 

So for you, the idea of rental is meaningless.   This explains why you don't have any problem parting with players in the first deal because somehow you think it's a done deal that he will resign.    I don't see it that way.  I don't think he's just talking when he says that he won't resign.  It's evident now that Toronto is not going to pay him the supermax regardless.  So there is no need to keep up the appearance that he doesn't want to be moved.   He's telling the truth.   He won't resign.   Moreover, he leaves Toronto where he's the 1st option to come to Atlanta or other places where more than likely he won't be the first option. 

Other GMs are not seeing his words as a ploy.  I don't know why anybody else would either.. especially at this late juncture. 

I could go with Mills, Bufkin, Hunter, and  a 1st for the rental.  Mainly because I see the contract to Hunter as being premature and we haven't seen Mills or Bufkin.   However, I'm not sliding AJ into that mix for a rental.  That's crazy. 

 

 

The difference between me and I guess most in the fan base, is that while I love AJ's potential, I don't believe that AJ is a generational talent or a future All-Star.  If the organization thought he were, we wouldn't have re-signed Bogi to that long term deal.  We'd be ready to play AJ big minutes.  Instead, he's fighting just to crack the rotation.

And check this out. If we finish .500 again and get bounced in the 1st round, most in this fan base are going to want a major overhaul of the roster anyway. 

Some may blame Trae and want him traded.  Some may turn on DJ.  Some may completely wash their hands with Hunter.  But the other thing that may get exposed is that our kids just aren't All-Star caliber talents.  And if that's the case, they are expendable.

What happens then?  We start to get rid of people, whether they be vets or the young guys.  And we're back to square 1.

If we don't make a deal, the kids need to be playing 20+ minutes a game.  I want OO, JJ, AJ all cracking the 20+ minute mark.  No excuses.  We need a quick evaluation of their talents with a larger sample size.

I'm sorry ladies and gentlemen. I've just seen this movie before.`

We have a 3 year window of opportunity to do something really special, with the best player this franchise has seen in over 30 years.

 

Don't mess this up Hawks, wishing on "potential".

[AHF]

9 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

Siakam + CC is a better fit than Collins + CC

You could literally run a 4 / 5 pick and roll with Siakam and CC, if the Hawks really wanted to get creative.

 

But I have Siakam paired with OO, who I think needs to start this season.

They are a better fit only because Siakam is a significantly better player.  Floor spacing becomes a bit of a nightmare with a Trae, DM, Siakam, CC lineup.

I agree Siakam pairs much better with OO.  In my mind if we are dealing for Siakam, CC should be part of the deal garnering assets for Toronto.  Floor spacing becomes essential with Siakam on the team so it becomes particularly difficult to give up AJ in that context for me.  Swapping in assets from trading CC seems much preferable.  

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

The difference between me and I guess most in the fan base, is that while I love AJ's potential, I don't believe that AJ is a generational talent or a future All-Star.  If the organization thought he were, we wouldn't have re-signed Bogi to that long term deal.  We'd be ready to play AJ big minutes.  Instead, he's fighting just to crack the rotation.

This is a very bad assumption. 

We signed Bogi to a long term deal because he's a 40% 3 pt shooter (easy) and those don't grow on trees.   By signing Bogi, we:

1. maximized his trade value. 
2. anchored him to a value contract. 
3. giving AJ a surrogate i.e. more time to develop. 

 

I don't read anything that says we have loss of expectation for AJ until I see his name floated by Shams in trade.  Screams of desperation to get Siakam. 

However, I don't read any of that from reuping Bogi.   It was the best move in this modern NBA. 

 

 

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

And check this out. If we finish .500 again and get bounced in the 1st round, most in this fan base are going to want a major overhaul of the roster anyway. 

Some may blame Trae and want him traded.  Some may turn on DJ.  Some may completely wash their hands with Hunter.  But the other thing that may get exposed is that our kids just aren't All-Star caliber talents.  And if that's the case, they are expendable.

 

Yeah.  but the first thing we will look at is Quin and his system.     

• Doubt we will want Trae gone.    I believe the only way Trae goes is because Trae wants to go. 
• Doubt people will turn on DJ.   It will take a lot for the Atlanta fanbase to turn on loyalty and leadership. 
• Hunter is the next ball to fall.  No doubt.  Unless he starts to show something, the fans will have no idea of what he brings and will see him as being the weakest link. 

Let's let it play out though.  You sound just like Babcock.  Pete is that you?  Making moves because you've had irrational notions of something that could happen in the future but has not happened.  Babcock was the one who traded Dominique while we were the best team in the East and had just beaten Hakeem and the Rockets.  His rationale was " we don't let our stars grow old on us."   The truth was that he didn't want to undergo contract negotiations with Nique so he traded Nique for a Rental.   He was certain that Manning would resign with us because we had his bird rights.  Does any of this sound familiar Pete??

Fool me once... Shame on you.  Fool me twice... Shame on me. 

 

 

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

If we don't make a deal, the kids need to be playing 20+ minutes a game.  I want OO, JJ, AJ all cracking the 20+ minute mark.  No excuses.  We need a quick evaluation of their talents with a larger sample size.

If we don't make the deal, I want the team that gives us the best chance to win on the floor.   There is no mandate to develop but development can proceed naturally. 

In my big picture...  The future may be:   Trae, DJ, AJ, Gueye and OO. 

We don't know.

Guys like Hunter and JJ  and Bey has to step up and prove their worth. 

I think that we are headed towards a place called meritocracy.   A lot of people like yourself don't like that place.   You are fresh out of the place called we drafted them so they must be good.  I've never stayed there.   I passed through that place with Acie Law and Roy Marble were Hawks draftees.   Years  of Babcock picking has led me to the understanding that us drafting somebody doesn't mean that they are good. 

BUT..  AJ has shown us some things.   His first half of the season was future allstar level.   He got the "it".  Let's let it come together. 

 

 

 

[AHF]

2 minutes ago, Diesel said:

If we don't make the deal, I want the team that gives us the best chance to win on the floor.   There is no mandate to develop but development can proceed naturally. 

I agree with this that minutes should be earned but I also think OO has unquestionably earned them; JJ has earned an increase over last year and the minutes will be there if we don't make a deal; and AJ showed me enough to strongly believe he has to be an important part of the rotation next year.  So all of them getting ~20+ minutes works for me from the standpoint of helping us win - especially since the goal to me is to win in the playoffs more than to win any particular regular season game.  

[Diesel]

25 minutes ago, AHF said:

I agree with this that minutes should be earned but I also think OO has unquestionably earned them; JJ has earned an increase over last year and the minutes will be there if we don't make a deal; and AJ showed me enough to strongly believe he has to be an important part of the rotation next year.  So all of them getting ~20+ minutes works for me from the standpoint of helping us win - especially since the goal to me is to win in the playoffs more than to win any particular regular season game.  

The idea of earned minutes is hard for a guy like JJ.   He does a lot of things well and you would like to see him improve on that.  However, his worst area is three point shooting.   It's hard to have a starting SF or Starting PF on the floor that shoots 29% from three.   Regardless of how talented a passer and how athletic he is.  In a lot of ways, he is like DGreen.   The only problem is that we don't have the shooters like GS had to make up for the fact that he's not a good shooter. 

I agree that OO has earned more minutes.  His rebounding must improve. 

 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

1 hour ago, AHF said:

They are a better fit only because Siakam is a significantly better player.  Floor spacing becomes a bit of a nightmare with a Trae, DM, Siakam, CC lineup.

I agree Siakam pairs much better with OO.  In my mind if we are dealing for Siakam, CC should be part of the deal garnering assets for Toronto.  Floor spacing becomes essential with Siakam on the team so it becomes particularly difficult to give up AJ in that context for me.  Swapping in assets from trading CC seems much preferable.  

I can't disagree with that logic.  If Toronto were willing to take on this . . .

. . . I think the fan base would do that all day.  But Toronto will want young talent.

So if you go Clint + Patty + Bufkin/AJ . . toss that out to them.  If you want to go Clint + Patty + JJ, I'm willing to do that too.  Siakam will eat up the bulk of the minutes at PF anyway, so it may be JJ that sees his minutes reduced, unless Quin plays him a little at the 3 ( which should be happening anyway ).

 

Spacing is overrated.  To me, it's more about who can make shots or not.  We need 3 point shooting and an increased volume of 3s. But we don't need 4 shooters on the floor at all times.  The Warriors survive just fine with just 3 shooters, mainly because Draymond is facilitating the offense and isn't worried too much about scoring.

 

Denver Horns set.  Watch how they use Jokic and maximize his passing ability.  Siakam is not as good of a passer as Jokic, but he's one of the best passing PFs in the league.

 

 

5-out Denver . . . once again, watch Jokic and imagine Siakam at his spot.   With Siakam's ability to take people off the dribble, he could be lethal in this set taking people off the dribble with an open lane . . and make Trae an extremely dangerous spot up shooter.

 

 

And I've already posted this video of Siakam in the pick and roll.  VanVleet was good, but now you pair Siakam with the PnR master Trae Young.

 

 

 

A passing big in this offense is what we've been missing.  That's one of the reasons why people are so high on JJ and his passing ability.  He could duplicate what Siakam does as a passer, but he's light years away from what Siakam is as a scorer.

With OO stretching out his range, all we would need is for OO to keep people honest via midrange jumpers, while Trae, DJ, Bey, and Bogi bomb away from the outside, and Siakam attacks the middle.  And whenever we wanted to have our guards initiate offense, Siakam becomes the roll man in the pick and roll, or spots up in the corner for 3s ( which he can make at league average ).

Siakam is too hard of a worker for me to think that he wouldn't excel here.

[JayBirdHawk]

8 minutes ago, Diesel said:

The idea of earned minutes is hard for a guy like JJ.   He does a lot of things well and you would like to see him improve on that.  However, his worst area is three point shooting.   It's hard to have a starting SF or Starting PF on the floor that shoots 29% from three.   Regardless of how talented a passer and how athletic he is.  In a lot of ways, he is like DGreen.   The only problem is that we don't have the shooters like GS had to make up for the fact that he's not a good shooter. 

I agree that OO has earned more minutes.  His rebounding must improve. 

Yeah, we saw what JC shooting 29.2% from 3 did to our offense.

I'll just say pre and post Quin, JJ's minutes and usage went up:

Split	Value	G	GS	MP	FG	FGA	3P	3PA	FT	FTA	ORB	TRB	AST	STL	BLK	TOV	PF	PTS		FG%	3P%	FT%		TS%	USG%	ORtg	DRtg	+/-		MP	PTS	TRB	AST
All-Star	Pre	55	6	790	112	235	23	81	40	61	41	213	50	25	24	27	78	287		.477	.284	.656		.548	15.4	111	113	-3.5		14.4	5.2	3.9	0.9
	Post	15	0	252	46	87	7	23	9	17	10	69	33	13	10	14	35	108		.529	.304	.529		.572	18.2	113	113	+8.8		16.8	7.2	4.6	2.2

 

He's still very much a work in progress.  Two things he needs to work and improve on is 3pt shooting and free-throw shooting.

[Diesel]

5 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

Spacing is overrated.  To me, it's more about who can make shots or not.  We need 3 point shooting and an increased volume of 3s. But we don't need 4 shooters on the floor at all times.  The Warriors survive just fine with just 3 shooters, mainly because Draymond is facilitating the offense and isn't worried too much about scoring.

 

No GS does well with 3 shooters.. mainly.. because 2 of them are the Historical best shooters in the history of the game. 

Let's look at GS's starting 5...

Curry - 42.7% from three.   11.4 attempts. 

Klay - 41.2% from three   10.6 attempts

Wiggins - 39.6% from three.   6.1 attmtpts. 

THEN You have Poole...

33.6% from three on 7.8 attempts. 

Floor spacing = Marvelous. 

 Let's look at Atlanta...

 

This is what a .500 team with bad spacing looks like. 

Nobody starter above 35%. 

Bogi is our designator shooter.   He would be in the Wiggins spot on GS's team. 

To this, you want to add Siakam.   He's John Collins with more attempts. 

 

As a matter of fact,  JC had a higher FG% than Siakam...

 

[Diesel]

 

Pascal Siakam is John Collins worst season with more shots.

Look at the numbers.  Siakam took 8 more shots per game than JC did. 

But JC shot 50.8% from the field to Siakam's 48.0% from the field. 

JC's worst 3 pt shooting was on par with Siakam's regular 3 pt shooting. 

 

The only place where Pascal Siakam excels over and above JC is passing.   And Siakam didn't play with the best passer in the game.   FVV was Good but what was the problem in Toronto.   Vets vs. Young players.   Siakam and his High Usage.   He sucks up the offense in a subtractive way.

This is how you lose to Chicago in the play in game where FVV has a triple double and Siakam scores 32 points.  How.. your offense has excluded everybody else.   Moreover, down the stretch, Siakam hits you with 6 missed FTs and 3 turnovers in the clutch.

 

If you don't believe in spacing and your knowledge of basketball is derived from 2k sports.. then you will love for the Hawks to trade the farm for Siakam. 

If we get Siakam, I'm hoping that we can trade him for something better by the deadline. 

 

 

 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

1 hour ago, Diesel said:

No GS does well with 3 shooters.. mainly.. because 2 of them are the Historical best shooters in the history of the game. 

Let's look at GS's starting 5...

Curry - 42.7% from three.   11.4 attempts. 

Klay - 41.2% from three   10.6 attempts

Wiggins - 39.6% from three.   6.1 attmtpts. 

THEN You have Poole...

33.6% from three on 7.8 attempts. 

Floor spacing = Marvelous. 

 Let's look at Atlanta...

 

This is what a .500 team with bad spacing looks like. 

Nobody starter above 35%. 

Bogi is our designator shooter.   He would be in the Wiggins spot on GS's team. 

To this, you want to add Siakam.   He's John Collins with more attempts. 

 

As a matter of fact,  JC had a higher FG% than Siakam...

 

 

JC had a higher FG% than Siakam, because he can't effectively create his own shot outside of post ups.  And Collins had a great number of his FGs assisted by Trae at point blank range, or for wide open 3s.

So once again, what happens to Siakam's efficiency as a shooter/scorer, if he's paired with the best facilitator in the game?  And what happens with Trae's efficiency as a shooter, if he has a big that will pass the ball BACK to him?  2 very good passers at their position, able to get each other, and their teammates better shots.

I think someone posted that our frontcourt was dead last in the league in assists.  Those guys got the ball and either were in prime position to shoot the ball, or forced up a shot that they missed.  Rarely did they ever make that next pass to get an assist for themselves.

Once again, spacing is overrated. Guys simply have to make shots even when they have the space.  Collins had all the space in the world and couldn't hit anything.

Last season, the Raptors should've put Siakam on the left side of the court more, taking corner 3s from that side.

 

Most of his above the break 3s, are pull up jumpers off the dribble when he's handling the ball.

Quin's offense could really take Siakam's efficiency to another level, because he'll have him receive the ball where he's more comfortable.

 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

3 hours ago, Diesel said:

This is a very bad assumption. 

We signed Bogi to a long term deal because he's a 40% 3 pt shooter (easy) and those don't grow on trees.   By signing Bogi, we:

1. maximized his trade value. 
2. anchored him to a value contract. 
3. giving AJ a surrogate i.e. more time to develop. 

 

I don't read anything that says we have loss of expectation for AJ until I see his name floated by Shams in trade.  Screams of desperation to get Siakam. 

However, I don't read any of that from reuping Bogi.   It was the best move in this modern NBA. 

 

 

 

What do you mean Diesel?  AJ didn't receive 1 minute of PT during the playoffs. Quin's rotation was 8 - 9 players, and AJ wasn't part of that group.  It's no wonder that AJ was the guy paired with Hunter in the initial Toronto trade to acquire Siakam.  Quin may like him, but he doesn't like him more than OO and JJ.

Meanwhile, Bogi was the guy that they give big money to, and Bey was the guy brought in at mid-season, that got all of AJ's extra minutes.

The fans love AJ.  The organization sees him as expendable.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

3 hours ago, Diesel said:

 

Yeah.  but the first thing we will look at is Quin and his system.     

• Doubt we will want Trae gone.    I believe the only way Trae goes is because Trae wants to go. 
• Doubt people will turn on DJ.   It will take a lot for the Atlanta fanbase to turn on loyalty and leadership. 
• Hunter is the next ball to fall.  No doubt.  Unless he starts to show something, the fans will have no idea of what he brings and will see him as being the weakest link. 

Let's let it play out though.  You sound just like Babcock.  Pete is that you?  Making moves because you've had irrational notions of something that could happen in the future but has not happened.  Babcock was the one who traded Dominique while we were the best team in the East and had just beaten Hakeem and the Rockets.  His rationale was " we don't let our stars grow old on us."   The truth was that he didn't want to undergo contract negotiations with Nique so he traded Nique for a Rental.   He was certain that Manning would resign with us because we had his bird rights.  Does any of this sound familiar Pete??

Fool me once... Shame on you.  Fool me twice... Shame on me. 

 

 

 

Babcock traded Dominique when we were the #1 team in the East and the #2 team in the league. 

I want to trade a mid-level player ( Hunter ) and rookies with "potential", in order to obtain an All-NBA player.

Two totally different scenarios.

The only thing irrational is thinking that the Hawks can keep and develop all 3 kids, and see all of them turn into stars.  That almost never happens, unless they're split up and one of them gets major PT. 

You have 4 guys ( DJ, Hunter, Bogi, and Bey ) taking significant minutes from AJ.  This is why he is the most expendable.  Unless the plan is to let Bey walk at the end of the year, when and where is AJ going to play?

• PG:  Trae . . Murray
• G:  Murray . . Bogi . . AJ
• F:  Hunter . . Bey . . AJ
• PF:  Bey . . JJ
• C : Okongwu . . Capela

[AHF]

2 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

I can't disagree with that logic.  If Toronto were willing to take on this . . .

. . . I think the fan base would do that all day.  But Toronto will want young talent.

 

My hypothetical trade is that except we also add Bufkin and maybe a pick and CC gets routed to a third team that sends assets* back to Toronto that they want more than Capela which might be young player(s) or picks along with matching salary.

* See the nuance from my discussion with D about "assets" and trading players.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

1 hour ago, Diesel said:

 

Pascal Siakam is John Collins worst season with more shots.

Look at the numbers.  Siakam took 8 more shots per game than JC did. 

But JC shot 50.8% from the field to Siakam's 48.0% from the field. 

JC's worst 3 pt shooting was on par with Siakam's regular 3 pt shooting. 

 

The only place where Pascal Siakam excels over and above JC is passing.   And Siakam didn't play with the best passer in the game.   FVV was Good but what was the problem in Toronto.   Vets vs. Young players.   Siakam and his High Usage.   He sucks up the offense in a subtractive way.

This is how you lose to Chicago in the play in game where FVV has a triple double and Siakam scores 32 points.  How.. your offense has excluded everybody else.   Moreover, down the stretch, Siakam hits you with 6 missed FTs and 3 turnovers in the clutch.

 

If you don't believe in spacing and your knowledge of basketball is derived from 2k sports.. then you will love for the Hawks to trade the farm for Siakam. 

If we get Siakam, I'm hoping that we can trade him for something better by the deadline. 

 

 

 

 

LMAO . . you think you proved a point in your favor by posting that?

How many times have Siakam destroyed Collins head to head, leading to a Toronto victory?

LOL @ the only thing he does better than Collins is pass the ball.  Come on man.

And watch yourself trying to insult someone's basketball knowledge around here.  You're the one dying on a hill, talking about how Collins is a better "shooter" based on his FG%, and not looking at Collins total impact on a game that leads to winning.

 

If Collins can do what Siakam was doing in this game, JC would still be on the team.  Hell, we might be World Champs if Collins could do this.

 

 

 

[Diesel]

2 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

What do you mean Diesel?  AJ didn't receive 1 minute of PT during the playoffs. Quin's rotation was 8 - 9 players, and AJ wasn't part of that group.  It's no wonder that AJ was the guy paired with Hunter in the initial Toronto trade to acquire Siakam.  Quin may like him, but he doesn't like him more than OO and JJ.

Meanwhile, Bogi was the guy that they give big money to, and Bey was the guy brought in at mid-season, that got all of AJ's extra minutes.

The fans love AJ.  The organization sees him as expendable.

None of that suggests that the Bogi extension has anything to do with AJ.   AJ isn't even projected to play the same position as Bogi.  You would have had a better argument saying that Hunter's extension is due to Aj's bad second half.   But Bogi's extension is due to the fact that Bogi is the best three point shooter on our team.  Our spacing didn't get better until we got Bey and he was able to log some minutes.   So the loss of Bogi would have been catastrophic for our team. 

As far as AJ.. he hit the rookie wall.   Expected.  Nothing else to conclude. 

 

[JayBirdHawk]

6 minutes ago, Diesel said:

You would have had a better argument saying that Hunter's extension is due to Aj's bad second half. 

Huh? Hunter got his extension (10/17/22) before AJ played one NBA minute.

[Diesel]

2 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

had a higher FG% than Siakam, because he can't effectively create his own shot outside of post ups.  And Collins had a great number of his FGs assisted by Trae at point blank range, or for wide open 3s.

So once again, what happens to Siakam's efficiency as a shooter/scorer, if he's paired with the best facilitator in the game? 

At best, he replicates what JC did. 

Here's the for sure.  For sure, if he's paired with Trae, he won't be able to run the offense like he does in Toronto.   He knows that.  I know that.  That's why he doesn't want to play in Atlanta.   That's why he won't resign with us. Specifically. 

Tell me.. who is going to suffer in order to give Siakam more shots?   He shot ~9 more attempts than JC did.   Where are those 9 attempts coming from.     Hell, I will make it easier...  Where are those 6 attempts coming from?   Is Trae giving up 6 attempts?  Is DJ giving up 6 attempts. 

We talking DJ's 17.8 attempts going to 11.8 attempts and his 20.5 ppg going to ....about 13.6 ppg?

We talking about Trae's 19 attempts going to 13 attempts and his  26.2 ppg going to about 17.9 ppg?

OK.. let's split the difference.  Each of them give up 3 attempts per game...

DJ = 17.5 ppg;   Trae = 22.05 ppg...  So that Siakam could come in with ~20 ppg?

You think everybody is going to be cool with that?