To my Siakam Fans....

[Diesel]

2 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

 

It's exactly what we need, for the exact reasons @JayBirdHawk listed.

Siakam's on ball usage will drop if he's paired with Trae.  But so will Trae's on ball usage.

Both Siakam and Trae have to work way too hard to get their shots at times.  In Quin's offense, they will compliment each other and use great passing to get people open looks, including each other.

 

Who in the hell wants Trae off Ball?

I need you to really go back and look at how that worked with DJ.   Betcha we won't see a lot of Trae off ball.  It doesn't make any sense.   You have a league leading assist guy and now you want to try to convert him to Steph freakin Curry???  This is the Lunacy that trying to make Siakam brings.    Let's think of other league leading assist guys playing off ball...

Did John Stockton play off ball?

Did Isiah Thomas play off ball?

Did Oscar Robertson play off ball?

 

Playing off ball is something that you do when your OG is more of a shooter than a passer.   Trae is not an OG.   He's as pure a PG as the league has ever had.  He just happens to score a lot.   He's a unicorn.   Trae averaged 26.4 ppg this past season.   Ask yourself, how many of his points were assisted?  Let me help you... 21%.  Most of those were him scoring on the break or in a catch and shoot deal.  That means that 79% of his scores came from something he created.   So I went searching... Haliburton 33%.  Mitchell 34%.  CP3 29%.    And you want to put Trae off ball.....

NO.

 

 

 

[Diesel]

2 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

So the benefit of Frontcourt passing...

 

 

Top 10...   Denver has Jokic so that goes without saying.    But 

San Antonio = No playoffs. 

Golden State = Out in the first round

Minnesota = Out in the first round or was it the playin?

New Orleans = Out in the first round or was it the playin?

Milwaukee = Out in the first.

Boston = Out in the 2nd round. 

Sacramento = Out in the 2nd round. 

Miami = Made it to the finals. 

Brooklyn = Out in the first round.

So even though we were the 29th out of 30th team in frontcourt passing...  Only 2 teams out of the top ten made it farther than us?  And there are other reasons for that...  I don't see the benefit. 

Here's the thing though @TheNorthCydeRises

I would like to suggest that frontcourt passing is more about scheme than personnel. 

Look at the life of Draymond Green.  He is the engine in GS. 

 

When you look at his assist numbers, you can tell when Mark Jackson was there and when Mark Jackson was replaced by Steve Kerr. 

 

Look at the basketball life of Giannis...

By the assists, you can tell when Jason Kidd was coaching and you can also tell when Coach Bud took over...

The way we have played has been scheme driven. 

 

[swanlee]

Give them Hunter and AJ and a draft pick if Siakam agrees to extend here. Otherwise we should just walk. 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

On 8/12/2023 at 12:04 AM, swanlee said:

Give them Hunter and AJ and a draft pick if Siakam agrees to extend here. Otherwise we should just walk. 

 

Gotta add at least Mills to make it work.  But I agree that should be the package.

[AHF]

4 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

Gotta add at least Mills to make it work.  But I agree that should be the package.

I’d still rather deal Hunter, Kobe and a pick to go with whatever assets CC brings from a third party and hold onto AJ.  Shooting will never not be a pressing need in the modern NBA and AJ looks like he could be one of the very best.  Siakam should be discounted for flight risk and the cost of resigning.  I don’t think Toronto has a ton of leverage.

[akay]

On 8/11/2023 at 7:43 PM, Diesel said:

Who in the hell wants Trae off Ball?

I need you to really go back and look at how that worked with DJ.   Betcha we won't see a lot of Trae off ball.  It doesn't make any sense.   You have a league leading assist guy and now you want to try to convert him to Steph freakin Curry???  This is the Lunacy that trying to make Siakam brings.    Let's think of other league leading assist guys playing off ball...

Did John Stockton play off ball?

Did Isiah Thomas play off ball?

Did Oscar Robertson play off ball?

 

Playing off ball is something that you do when your OG is more of a shooter than a passer.   Trae is not an OG.   He's as pure a PG as the league has ever had.  He just happens to score a lot.   He's a unicorn.   Trae averaged 26.4 ppg this past season.   Ask yourself, how many of his points were assisted?  Let me help you... 21%.  Most of those were him scoring on the break or in a catch and shoot deal.  That means that 79% of his scores came from something he created.   So I went searching... Haliburton 33%.  Mitchell 34%.  CP3 29%.    And you want to put Trae off ball.....

NO.

 

 

 

I can think of 2 reasons for getting Trae off ball more 

1. Saves him energy so he can try more on defense

2. Trae is one of the best shooters in the league when open, so if someone can dish him a quality look, it's a great play. 

Our team had trouble setting up easy baskets last season, and if someone else can drive and kick to an open player, and that player happens to be a shooter like Trae, it's a great look.

Also, Trae can probably make some cool creative plays after getting the ball from someone else while a play is in motion, dude reads the game so well even if he's not the one initiating the action, he can be the reason it ends with another pass to an open guy.

 

Trae should be on ball most of the time, but when we got so many options for cooking, we should see what meals can get served. 

[Diesel]

6 hours ago, akay said:

I can think of 2 reasons for getting Trae off ball more 

1. Saves him energy so he can try more on defense

2. Trae is one of the best shooters in the league when open, so if someone can dish him a quality look, it's a great play. 

Our team had trouble setting up easy baskets last season, and if someone else can drive and kick to an open player, and that player happens to be a shooter like Trae, it's a great look.

Also, Trae can probably make some cool creative plays after getting the ball from someone else while a play is in motion, dude reads the game so well even if he's not the one initiating the action, he can be the reason it ends with another pass to an open guy.

 

Trae should be on ball most of the time, but when we got so many options for cooking, we should see what meals can get served. 

No doubt.. those two reasons are good.  However, the actual playing of Trae off ball has never equated to being great.   I will give Quin a lot more of a pass than the previous coaches.   Mainly because he's built the relationships and he has done it before with MCJ and Spyda Mitchell.   However, we don't need to run out and get Siakam for that purpose.  We already have Murray who is a PG acting like an OG for that purpose... same as Spyda and MCJ.   The main point is that I don't see benefit in us trying to mimic what you see in GS.   Trae is not Curry and will never be.   Nor is Quin  Steve Kerr.    If anything, I expect something closer to what Quin did in Utah. 

 

 

[AHF]

3 hours ago, Diesel said:

No doubt.. those two reasons are good.  However, the actual playing of Trae off ball has never equated to being great.   I will give Quin a lot more of a pass than the previous coaches.   Mainly because he's built the relationships and he has done it before with MCJ and Spyda Mitchell.   However, we don't need to run out and get Siakam for that purpose.  We already have Murray who is a PG acting like an OG for that purpose... same as Spyda and MCJ.   The main point is that I don't see benefit in us trying to mimic what you see in GS.   Trae is not Curry and will never be.   Nor is Quin  Steve Kerr.    If anything, I expect something closer to what Quin did in Utah. 

 

 

The thing with Trae off the ball is that I don't think we have had an effective playmaker to take advantage of that to date and, more importantly, we haven't had an offensive system to optimize that.  I would think we would want him running off screens, etc. to get him clean looks and I haven't ever seen him off the ball with intention from a system perspective.  

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, AHF said:

The thing with Trae off the ball is that I don't think we have had an effective playmaker to take advantage of that to date and, more importantly, we haven't had an offensive system to optimize that.  I would think we would want him running off screens, etc. to get him clean looks and I haven't ever seen him off the ball with intention from a system perspective.  

This is true.

And again, my reason for him not being off ball is that he's very effective with the ball.  Let's be honest, Steph Curry running the GS offense would be good but he would never be a great PG.   I think he'd have more turnovers and would be easy for defenses to key on him.  Moreover, the system has been developed for him to play to his strength which is shooting. 

Trae is one of the best set shot shooters.   His shooting off the dribble is not something that I'm hoping to see unless he can make it better.  I just don't see running him off of screens ala curry and Reg Miller being effective for him.   He's more a set shot shooter like in the PNR.   IN the PNR, after the pick, if he's left alone, he will drain the shot. 

Having DJ was a perfect chance to run something with Trae off ball.   But the kinda Trae off ball we got was Trae as a decoy. 

 

[AHF]

1 hour ago, Diesel said:

But the kinda Trae off ball we got was Trae as a decoy. 

 

Good post and I wanted to highlight this especially since it is 100% true.  You can't just sit him out there to the side as a decoy while someone else runs things.  Nobody other than a Tony Snell type should just sit on the perimeter as a decoy to spread the floor.  There needs to be more movement and more intentionality to it.

[Diesel]

4 hours ago, AHF said:

Good post and I wanted to highlight this especially since it is 100% true.  You can't just sit him out there to the side as a decoy while someone else runs things.  Nobody other than a Tony Snell type should just sit on the perimeter as a decoy to spread the floor.  There needs to be more movement and more intentionality to it.

That was my problem with Nate's creativity.   Nate was a good coach but not a creative coach.  I think Melvin Hunt was the creative force we had.   However, Nate couldn't think of ways to orient the offense to make use of a 2 guard system.  Honestly it's going to be very difficult because our offense have lived through Trae's greatness as a creator and a creative force.  It's the Teet that Nate refused to jump off of.  I know that Quin dreams basketball offensive creativity.  However, even in his best dream, I don't see him devoting our whole offense to getting Trae free the way that GS does with Curry. 

Honestly, progress the way I see it would be more movement.   Find some of those old Lenny WIlkens notes when he had Mookie and Smitty and both were putting up over 5 3s per game.. Hell, Mookie was putting up about 8.   But if Mookie would have been the pure PG that Trae is.. we would have dominated everybody we played.  I want to say we won 54-56 games that year and we had absolutely no depth. 

 

 

 

[AHF]

On 8/14/2023 at 5:44 PM, Diesel said:

That was my problem with Nate's creativity.   Nate was a good coach but not a creative coach.  I think Melvin Hunt was the creative force we had.   However, Nate couldn't think of ways to orient the offense to make use of a 2 guard system.  Honestly it's going to be very difficult because our offense have lived through Trae's greatness as a creator and a creative force.  It's the Teet that Nate refused to jump off of.  I know that Quin dreams basketball offensive creativity.  However, even in his best dream, I don't see him devoting our whole offense to getting Trae free the way that GS does with Curry. 

Honestly, progress the way I see it would be more movement.   Find some of those old Lenny WIlkens notes when he had Mookie and Smitty and both were putting up over 5 3s per game.. Hell, Mookie was putting up about 8.   But if Mookie would have been the pure PG that Trae is.. we would have dominated everybody we played.  I want to say we won 54-56 games that year and we had absolutely no depth. 

Fully agree on Nate.   He was, unfortunately, just running LP's system and slowing the pace a bit (really making his bones managing people better than LP).  He didn't bring anything to the table.  

I have the same hopes for Quin's impact that you do.  More movement and more actual plays to run would be good starts.  We saw where doing little more than rolling the ball out for DM and Trae to do their thing gets you, and it isn't good enough.

[Spud2nique]

@AHF get ready for my avatar