Ranking the top 24 PF’s 2023-24

[Spud2nique]

Series continues..

#3 is my dude.. @kg01 where’s our guy?   

 

https://hoopshype.com/lists/nba-rankings-top-24-power-forwards-2023-24-season-giannis-davis-draymond-zion/

[AHF]

Not sure what the point of this is Spud.  Are you firing shots at Saddiq Bey who you and I think is going to start at PF this season?

I may have missed someone but I'm pretty sure this is a list exclusively of guys who started last season or who have 100+ starts at PF.  JC was our starter last year.  None of our other PF candidates got enough minutes at PF to be considered for a list like this.

Your dude is a Raptor so until we trade for him the real question is where our guys end the year, not where they rank on pre-season lists.  

 

[Spud2nique]

5 hours ago, AHF said:

Not sure what the point of this is Spud. 

Nothing. I posted the other positions from the hoopshype breakdown as well. I think center might be the only one left.

5 hours ago, AHF said:

Are you firing shots at Saddiq Bey

No he’s my guy. People keep saying JJ is the starter.

[Spud2nique]

19 hours ago, Spud2nique said:

.. @kg01 where’s our guy?   

Where cage at..

 

[Diesel]

Bey is set to change the PF Position.  To me he is physical enough to hold his own.  He's gritty and he can shoot. 

 

[akay]

19 minutes ago, Diesel said:

He's gritty

Grit aint translate to defense yet though  Hopefully this season he's much improved on that end cause it was painful seeing how many points he was giving up this year.

He works beautifully on offense next to Trae though so can't complain too much.

JJ still our future starter though I believe 

[Diesel]

18 minutes ago, akay said:

Grit aint translate to defense yet though  Hopefully this season he's much improved on that end cause it was painful seeing how many points he was giving up this year.

He works beautifully on offense next to Trae though so can't complain too much.

JJ still our future starter though I believe 

What I mean is that he has a nose for the ball and will fight for it.   I agree, it hasn't had a defensive translation but I believe Snyder will work on that part.   He was traded and put on the floor.   I don't even think we know if he understood the plays.   BUt his instincts and grit look good. 

 

[AHF]

On 9/15/2023 at 6:58 PM, Spud2nique said:

Nothing. I posted the other positions from the hoopshype breakdown as well. I think center might be the only one left.

No he’s my guy. People keep saying JJ is the starter.

I don't really care too much who starts but if CC is starting I think it makes sense to start Bey alongside him and if OO is starting I think it makes sense to start JJ alongside him.  All 4 of them will get big minutes at the PF and C positions so I don't think who starts matters all that much and trust Snyder to figure out how they best mix and match.  (My view is probably too simple but I think there is some logic there).

[Spud2nique]

1 hour ago, AHF said:

I don't really care too much who starts but if CC is starting I think it makes sense to start Bey alongside him and if OO is starting I think it makes sense to start JJ alongside him. 

Wait, why not OO and Bey? 

[AHF]

2 hours ago, Spud2nique said:

Wait, why not OO and Bey? 

I think they should absolutely play minutes together.  Question is how many.  Two high levels thoughts from me as to why most of the minutes for OO would be with JJ on the floor:

(1) Fit With CC:

I think CC is the guy who is hardest to fit with anyone.  He is so limited on offense that only Bey fits with him on paper.  Put JJ or OO on the floor with CC and you should expect defenses to not respect that spacing at all.  Add in DM and it gets worse. Unlike JJ and OO, Bey is a big threat from the perimeter and doesn't need to attack the basket to be effective on offense.  Bey really needs to be on the floor anytime that CC is.  Bey plays an average of about 29 minutes a game career to date.  CC plays about 27 minutes a game career to date.  Sooo how many minutes are you going to play anyone with CC and how many more minutes are you going to give Bey so he can play with OO?

(2) OO and JJ Have Been Great Together:

JJ and OO are paired together all over last season's best lineups on a per possession +/- basis with OO in them and almost all the rest of them are lineups with JC which obviously can't be used next year:

#1 +61 JJ / OO

#2 JC

#3 +17.8 JJ / OO

#4 +14.5 Bey / OO

#5 +7.2 JJ / OO

#6 JC

#7 +6.0 JJ / OO

#8 JC

#9 +4.8 JJ / OO

#10 JC

#11 JC

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/ATL/2023/lineups/

All other lineups are negative.

 

So JJ and OO were outstanding together last year.  JJ's playmaking fit really well with OO's mobility up front with each of them being enough of a threat outside the paint that defenses couldn't collapse like on CC.  On D, their combined length and defensive ability worked very well on the other side of the floor.

So I just see them as a natural fit together based on how well they have played together and when you combine that with CC needing Bey on the floor with him you have two natural pairings as I see it.

[Spud2nique]

I wonder where JJ ranks of it went past 24 players here? Any guesses? 35th?

[Diesel]

26 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

I wonder where JJ ranks of it went past 24 players here? Any guesses? 35th?

I don't think he has seen enough time to receive a ranking in the top 50. 

JJ played 14.9 mpg last season.   He had 6 starts in 70 games.  And he gave us 5.6, 4.0, and 1.2.... and shot 49.1% and 23.1%.

If you double his numbers with math...  that's 29.8 mpg, 11.2, 8.0, and 2.4.

He has a Ja Morant like Fanbase here.  What I mean by that is that they are fans that think that he's better than he really is because of the highlights.   Sadly.. Numbers don't lie.    These are his numbers.   I hope for progress just like everybody else does but he hasn't done anything that suggests that he's on his way to being a star or that he even deserves to start. 

In 25.2 mpg, Saddiq Bey gave us:   11.6, 4.8, and 1.2 and shot 47.0% and 40.0%  playing primarily at the 3. 

or maybe the Answer is moving Hunter up to 4 but he's going to have to learn how to box out. 

 

 

 

[AHF]

40 minutes ago, Diesel said:

I don't think he has seen enough time to receive a ranking in the top 50. 

I agree.  It is like ranking an untested rookie.  You need to see them in a substantial role.

Quote

He has a Ja Morant like Fanbase here.  What I mean by that is that they are fans that think that he's better than he really is because of the highlights.   Sadly.. Numbers don't lie.    These are his numbers.   I hope for progress just like everybody else does but he hasn't done anything that suggests that he's on his way to being a star or that he even deserves to start. 

This I don't think gets it right.  I would go back to the rookie analogy and say that the people highest on him aren't highest on him because of his full year numbers last season.  They are high on him because of what they think is his untapped potential.  (I.e., they don't think his full season last year was amazing like Ja fans).  The people who are excited about his numbers last year are only really excited about  his numbers playing under Snyder which were much better than his full season numbers.  

In short, it is potential not actualized production that people are most excited about.

[Diesel]

39 minutes ago, AHF said:

his I don't think gets it right.  I would go back to the rookie analogy and say that the people highest on him aren't highest on him because of his full year numbers last season.  They are high on him because of what they think is his untapped potential. 

That's just it though.  Potential with the absence of the stats that should undergird it is what I believe we have.

He shoots 23.1% from three.   In the "modern" NBA, that's atrocious.. and he didn't primarily play at just the 4, he played some at the 3 too.   So the potential that you speak of is merely us looking at him dunking, making a good pass, and handling the ball (highlights) and saying, "Boy if he got more time, he will overcome that bad shooting and be the next Lebron James out there".   Please understand, I'm not saying that he won't improve or make a rookie like jump.   What I'm saying is that some in our fanbase is willing to bet the farm that he will and this is only because of two things... 1.  We drafted him.   2.   Highlights.  But for me, he doesn't have the undergirding to bet the farm.  He will get his chance and we will see though. 

 

 

 

[Spud2nique]

1 hour ago, Diesel said:

they are fans that think that he's better than he really is because of the highlights. 

@kg01 u mean, just say his name what are you scared of going to the sac to confront dude?  

[JayBirdHawk]

11 minutes ago, Diesel said:

He shoots 23.1% from three.   In the "modern" NBA, that's atrocious..and he didn't primarily play at just the 4, he played some at the 3 too.

Not saying that is not an atrocious percentage, however he took a total of 13 3pt shot attempts making 3 in the 120 minutes total minutes he played (22 games played).  He played less than 3 minutes in half of those 22 games.  Lots of 0-1 from 3.

Jalen Johnson 2021-22 Game Log | Basketball-Reference.com

We all recognize that he's not a 3pt shooter, 3pt shooting is his weakness and needs work.

[AHF]

22 minutes ago, Diesel said:

That's just it though.  Potential with the absence of the stats that should undergird it is what I believe we have.

He shoots 23.1% from three.   In the "modern" NBA, that's atrocious.. and he didn't primarily play at just the 4, he played some at the 3 too.   So the potential that you speak of is merely us looking at him dunking, making a good pass, and handling the ball (highlights) and saying, "Boy if he got more time, he will overcome that bad shooting and be the next Lebron James out there".   Please understand, I'm not saying that he won't improve or make a rookie like jump.   What I'm saying is that some in our fanbase is willing to bet the farm that he will and this is only because of two things... 1.  We drafted him.   2.   Highlights.  But for me, he doesn't have the undergirding to bet the farm.  He will get his chance and we will see though. 

 

 

 

First, he was judged by scouts as having elite potential which is often a good sign of long-term potential.  His draft status fell from top status to midround due to injury not anything in underlying skill.  So I think that is a reasonable basis for thinking he may have upside beyond what we've seen to date.

Second, there are stats that undergird that optimism.  I don't want to repeat someone else's work but his numbers under Snyder were much better than his numbers under Nate.  And under Snyder it wasn't just the increase in his individual stats but how the team performed with him on the floor in those minutes.  So what you hear from his biggest advocates are more along the lines of "if he can continue to build on what we saw from him under Snyder he can be really great."

Third, the fan base doesn't bet anything on  his success.  We don't make decisions that are betting the farm types of events.  We just root for things.  It is our GM and front office that make bets on things and when they dumped JC they clearly made a bet on some combination of (a) our ability to pull off a trade and/or (b) Bey and JJ's ability to replace JC.  

But there is no "betting the farm" from the fans.  This is up to the front office not the fans.  Assuming there is no big trade, I agree that he will get his chance and we will see.  I don't think it matters if he starts or not as I think both Bey and JJ will have plenty of opportunity this season with JC gone.

[kg01]

1 hour ago, Spud2nique said:

@kg01 u mean, just say his name what are you scared of going to the sac to confront dude?  

I'm imaging @Diesel standing in the 'sac with his shirt off, arms stretched out, goin 'come at me, kaygee!!'

I'm scared. 

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Not saying that is not an atrocious percentage, however he took a total of 13 3pt shot attempts making 3 in the 120 minutes total minutes he played (22 games played).  He played less than 3 minutes in half of those 22 games.  Lots of 0-1 from 3.

Jalen Johnson 2021-22 Game Log | Basketball-Reference.com

We all recognize that he's not a 3pt shooter, 3pt shooting is his weakness and needs work.

You're right, I quoted the wrong year...

He shot 28.8% from three with 70 games...  at 14.9 mpg. 

Still not a ringing endorsement.

 

[Spud2nique]

19 minutes ago, kg01 said:

I'm imaging @Diesel standing in the 'sac with his shirt off, arms stretched out, goin 'come at me, kaygee!!'

I'm scared. 

Same except his pants were off too.Hey, I don’t like it any more than you do.  

Pull those MC Hammers  up @Diesel dayuummm