Is Knight Scouting....

[Diesel]

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You're saying that 5 years from now people won't be hyped and interested about some 7'1" guy from europe?

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Let's test that statement.

Frederick Weis

Are you excited yet??

How about another?

Big Jake! I think he's a free agent this year.

How about another?

Wang Zhu Zhu....

Has that excitement level built up yet?

Now, let's turn the tables Chillz. What if I tell you there's a 7'1 guy coming out of HS. Would you want him? Let's see...

who gets you more excited...

Any of the three that I have just mentioned or Tyson Chandler?

Even with Tyson being Injured, I would still want him over those guys because I know he has what???

MORE POTENTIAL.

That's what it comes down to Chillz. You don't get it. We have developed a society where Basketball is more than a Sport. It's a culture. So when you wonder who will be better... Will it be the guy who does this for Sport or will it be the guy who does this because he knows nothing else, I will always talk the guy that has basketball running through his veins.

[cyman3]

u got to be kidding me...

first off DIESEL, we drool over these international prospects as much as we do for HIGH SCHOOL phenoms. Nobody said to pick an euro player just cuz hes from europe!

btw, ur street arguement does absolutely NO JUSTICE to ur main arguement. If that was the case, JAMAAL TINSLEY would be the 2nd best PG in the NBA after RAFER "Skip to My Lou" ALSTON.

and about DIAW... we dont drool over him. In fact, i think all of us would rather have KOBE here than DIAW. But the truth is, KOBE ISINT HERE, Diaw is busting his butt off and guarding the likes of Lebron/Carmelo and does a very fine job. We're just giving appreciation where its due.

Diesel, i can expect this from BLACKHAWKDOWN... but c'mon man.... i know u better than that! u make it sound like EURO PLAYERS are trash and not worthy of playing in the NBA.

u even go as far as defending LEON SMITH... saying u rather take a chance on the next coming of LEON SMITH than a EURO PLAYER. u seem to be willing to give him a try, how come u dont do the same for EURO PLAYERS?

wats wrong DIESEL? failed to make it PRO cuz of a EURO PLAYER?

[cyman3]

for every WANG ZHI ZHI, theres a good player like SABONIS.

[BlackHawkDown]

"Biggie said... "either you slang'n crack rock or you got a wicked jumpshot." "

That was your greatest post ever. The fact is that European players have good technical play. In fact if you bought a textbook on how to play you will see they follow it to the T. The problem is they arent as good as the players coming out of high School here. Do a comparison.

Also Just lookup the Euro leauge leaders all are NBDL level players from here. Or African immigrants. Most of the European players are just below NBA level. But since 3 or 4 of them come over and dominate you guys are riding the whole of Europe

[chillzatl]

That elitist wannabe-street attitude is why the NBA only has about 5 teams worth watching. You can say you want some dope player from the streets cuz he can crossover. But that's why the league sucks Diesel. All flash, no substance.

See, you're just railing on and on about how everyone "drools" over these european players. You fail to realise or even accept that they're drooling over talent. They're drooling over something they rarely get from the states and almost NEVER get from HSers (Lebron being the ONLY exception thus far), good fundamentals + potential. You can call it "hype" and quote all the ignorant rappers you want. But fundamentals are what's saving the NBA.

You're pointing out guys who are late first round picks and guys who weren't even drafted and trying to compare them to a top FIVE pick? WTF guy, lets see some parity eh? Why don't you stop comparing apples to oranges.

You see, to me, it woudln't matter where the 7'1" player came from. If I heard there was a 7'1" player who was very talented, I wouldn't give a damn if he was from HS or from Croatia. Because talent is what wins games. Cornrows, fake attitude and bad english skills don't win games.

[Diesel]

The game as you know it NOW was built on the backs of these street players who you call...Flash.

What would this league be had Magic Johnson never played?

How would the game have evolved had Isiah Thomas never picked up a basketball?

Atlanta's claim to fame Dominique use to Hustle games in Baltimore before going to college and hustle at the UGA.

Have you forgotten the glorious past of basketball?

Didn't you know that Kareem perfected his game at the RUCK?

Again. I'm pointing to the fact that this game is more than a sport for many US Players... It's their modern culture.

Everybody reports that Dr. J's career started at Umass or maybe at Roosevelt HS. NO, Dr. J. became a good player on the streets sponsered by a Salvation Army street team. With out Dr. J, there could be no Jordan.

If that street ball is what has infected the NBA.. Good. Otherwise, there would be no NBA.

As far as the comparison.

I was pointing out first rounders. ALL of the guys who have come out of HS are KNOWN.. Every last one of them. However, you guys put up Dirk and Peja as if every Euro baller is on that level... For every Dirk, there's a Fredrick Weiss. My point is that we've seen their best... To go much further than the top 5% is a mistake.

[Diesel]

Dude, I never said that Europlayers are trash.

I said and I say again.. The way many people drool over the Europlayers are needless and soon will end because it's just a fad. Like 6'9 PGs. Now... There's nothing wrong with a 6'9 PG, but after years of watching them, we realize that everybody who's 6'9 and plays PG will not be like Magic. Once you start to examine the 6'9 PG pool, you find that for some of them, there is absolutely no reason to drool.

The same is true of Europlayers. Once you start to examine beyond the top 5%, you find that there's not much there. We talk about the ability to play more that they have, but I say it doesn't make much of a difference.

Again. If you take the pool of Europlayers already in the league and compare it to the pool of straight from HS already in the league it leads me to believe that getting the HS Phenom is more fruitful than the Europlayer.

That's the bottom line. I'm not saying Look over them... However, I'm saying if my choice is Josh Smith or Pavel Podzolkine... I'm going with Smith every day and twice on Wed.

[BlackHawkDown]

"That elitist wannabe-street attitude is why the NBA only has about 5 teams worth watching" Thats a load of S#it. The NBA is entertainment. Frederick Douglass High vs. Marietta High is basketball. Which would you rather watch? The Utah Jazz are probably the most boring team on earth because their team is built for technical play. Mind you they never won a championship with it.

Claiming flashy players ruin the league is a crock. Nique, early MJ, Dr. J, "Magic", all flashy players who played a more physically and mentally demanding brand of basketball than the Euros. Not to mention a point you dont seem to want to tackle, why are so many of the top players in Europe former CBA players or College All Americans that didnt or couldnt make it in the NBA. ????

I'm not anti foriegn player, when its Patrick Ewing or Dikembe or Tim Duncan. I am anti foriegn when its one of the countless sc rubs riding NBA benches that are never brought up when its time to talk about flops.

"quote all the ignorant rappers" those ignorant rappers have more fame money and musical talent than you so why insult them. And Biggie is dead do you really need to talk about him, what did he ever do to you.

[Diesel]

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You see, to me, it woudln't matter where the 7'1" player came from. If I heard there was a 7'1" player who was very talented, I wouldn't give a damn if he was from HS or from Croatia.

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Earlier in the thread, before I checked your ass the first time, you talked about being excited about a 7'1 C. You said nothing about ability. I saw Fred Weiss in your words...

That's the problem. Some of you guys get all gung ho about Europlayers simply because their from Europe. You think that they are better trained and therefore better players than US breed players. There's your crock. The truth of the matter is that any HSer who is a phenom will come out and after 3 years will blow the doors off of an Europlayer.

Europlayers come in already having reached their glass ceiling of potential. However, for them, Basketball is not a culture. For them, getting to the NBA is the end of their dream. Most HSers want to Dominate in the NBA. Ask Stoudamire how he felt when he made the jump. Ask Howard, how good he can be. The answers are:

Stoudamire believe that he will be the best player in history. Howard said that he will be better than James. And they work at their craft. It's not the picture of clowning like Harlem Globetrotters that you paint. These guys are serious about their culture. It's life or death for them. I don't see the same drive in the Europlayers.

[cyman3]

Alright, answer a few questions D-man.

first u say that EURO players are a fad... okay, okay. U also say that 6'9" PGs are a fad. ok, ok... but what about HS players? IS THAT NOT A FAD AS WELL? what about selecting UNC, DUKE, KENTUCKY players? that fad basically gave Roshown McLeod a chance at the NBA.

u say that after the 5%, theres not much there... well, what about High school players? what, are 25% of HS players destined to be in the NBA? c'mon dude!

"HS Phenom is more fruitful than the Europlayer"

- if u think FRUITFUL is a NASTY DUNK, ill give it to u. Its in the US CULTURE/NATURE to want to jump higher and dunk instead of performing a simply layup. Define FRUITFUL? are u talking about potential?

"I'm going with Smith every day and twice on Wed."

- w/o any workouts... ur willing to go with SMITH, just like that? Now, dont get me wrong... im not a fan of PAVEL. In fact, that health condition concerns me about Pavel. but im not going to be stupid and select Smith just cuz of a theory that HIGH SCHOOL PLAYERS are better than EUROPLAYERS.

btw, u can keep bringing up scrubs like FRED "i was dunked on by Vince" WEIS all u want... but for every WEIS, u also have JAMES "Please call me POORMANS SHAQ" LANG. Hell, James isint even a poormans Eddy Curry. U also have that OUTLAW guy doing something in Portland. Atleast, we assume hes doing something.

[Kraken]

Quote:

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Quote:

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Quote:

You're saying that 5 years from now people won't be hyped and interested about some 7'1" guy from europe?

---

Let's test that statement.

Frederick Weis

Are you excited yet??

How about another?

Big Jake! I think he's a free agent this year.

How about another?

Wang Zhu Zhu....

Has that excitement level built up yet?

Now, let's turn the tables Chillz. What if I tell you there's a 7'1 guy coming out of HS. Would you want him? Let's see...

who gets you more excited...

Any of the three that I have just mentioned or Tyson Chandler?

Even with Tyson being Injured, I would still want him over those guys because I know he has what???

MORE POTENTIAL.

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How were these three players you mention more hyped than Chandler? Wang didn't even get to the first round.

Tyson was #2 pick. Jake #25, Wang #36 and even the ultimate draft bust Weis was just #15. Would you want Yao Ming (#1) over Soumaila Samake(#36), Jason Collier (#15) or Samuel Dalembert (#26)?

Who then suffered from this "Eurohype" these three got. Let's check the great US centers that got snuffed their rightful draft position:

After Tsakalidis there are Mamadou N'Diaye (Nigerian, but played in US college) Jake Voskuhl, Jabari Smith, Ernest Brown and Dan McClintock.

After Wang there were Obinna Ekezie(also Nigerian and a college player), A.J. Bramlett, Tyrone Washington.

After Weis there were picked Jeff Foster, Evan Eschmeier and Calvin Booth.

Weis was a mistake as everybody knows now, but my opinion is that he was a better player than Foster or Eschmeier in 1999. It was the back surgery he had just before the draft that created the stiff center Weis is now. Weis didn't let the Knicks medical staff to examine his back before the draft and the stupid Knicks still drafted him at #15.

Tsakalidis was maybe drafted too high, but considering Pryzbilla was drafted at #9 the same year and Jason Collier at #15 so were some US centers.

Wang was a second round pick and perhaps more of a publicity stunt. I would also like to remind that if Wang is European then I want Yao too

[Diesel]

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first u say that EURO players are a fad... okay, okay. U also say that 6'9" PGs are a fad. ok, ok... but what about HS players? IS THAT NOT A FAD AS WELL?

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Yes it is. In fact, it was "in style" before. Back when Moses Malone and Darryl Dawkins were allowed entry into the league. Then the commish determined that maybe getting HSers isn't the best idea for franchises.

Right now, Stern is trying to Globalize Basketball and in order to do that, he has to promote global talent. This same thing happened before, after the Hawks went to Europe the first time... A few years later, the Hawks and the league picked up a few players. Sabonis, Sasha, and Petrovich and guys like that. Turner even started what he called the "goodwill games"... However, that fad went out and came back again.

In other words, the market will dictate what is "fashionable" in basketball. The longest running fad has been underclassmen declaring early. Well, now you have HSers back coming out early. Eventually, Stern will put a cap on it by declaring an age limit. What he's afraid of is that HSers will leave HS and go to Europe. IN order to close that back door, he has to provide something for talented HSers. It's called the NBDL. Right now, James is killing Stern's baby. Because if James can come right in and dominate, what's to say that another HSer can't.

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HS Phenom is more fruitful than the Europlayer"

- if u think FRUITFUL is a NASTY DUNK, ill give it to u. Its in the US CULTURE/NATURE to want to jump higher and dunk instead of performing a simply layup. Define FRUITFUL? are u talking about potential?

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Don't insult me...

Look at the track record:

Lebron, Kobe, Tmac, J. Oneal, KG... These guys came right out of HS. I dare you to compare any Europlayer Dirk, Kirlenko, Peja.. bring em all and claim that they are better. It has nothing to do with Dunks... It's about the level of competition. These guys play the game on the highest level. More fruitful...

But sometimes you have to look at the bottom of the pile.

Kwame Brown, Leon Smith, and Miles. I will save Judgement of Perkins and Outlaw because they just got here. Smith could have been an awesome player but mentally he wasn't ready. I don't think College would have prepared him any better. But for all the complaints about Miles and Brown they are still serviceable. The guys at the bottom of the Eurolist is shameful... They make Miles, Brown look like basketball gods.

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- w/o any workouts... ur willing to go with SMITH, just like that? Now, dont get me wrong... im not a fan of PAVEL. In fact, that health condition concerns me about Pavel. but im not going to be stupid and select Smith just cuz of a theory that HIGH SCHOOL PLAYERS are better than EUROPLAYERS

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Why do you think Smith is even being mentioned as a possible Lottery pick. It's all about potential. When you look at draft picks these days, no one really looks at talent unless you're looking at Europlayers.... i.e. when you see a Euro player, you're seeing him as the best he will ever be. His potential is small. However, when you see a guy like Smith dominating the HS ranks... and he has an understanding of what it takes to be a prime time player and physically he's ready... You take that potential. You rate that potential high. You just might get the next KG.

Whereas in Podkolzine... He's not even dominating Euroball. The Euroleague is still a second class league. I would love to see the Europlayers play our CBA... Or isn't that what goes on anyway? Our washed up has beens go to Europe to make a few dollars more. So the fact that Podkolzine can score over J. R. Reed isn't that impressive.

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btw, u can keep bringing up scrubs like FRED "i was dunked on by Vince" WEIS all u want... but for every WEIS, u also have JAMES "Please call me POORMANS SHAQ" LANG.

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The difference is that James Lang was not a first round pick. Right.. I mean, the Knicks burned a first rounder on Weiss. The Nuggets burned the 5th pick overall on Tskittsvilli... What has he done? You can insult Lang all day... He was in the draft because he couldn't get into college. He didn't have the skills and everyone knew it. However, when I saw Phenom, I'm talking about the guys who cause ESPN to televise their games in HS.

[cyman3]

"The Nuggets burned the 5th pick overall on Tskittsvilli"

- i know a HIGH SCHOOL player who was also picked with the 5th pick. His name is Jonathan Bender. Yea, ur right. While Tskittsville is sitting on the bench, Bender is leading his team to victory night in and night out.

ur evaluating Tskiville in his 2nd year. Bender was drafted nearly 5 years ago.

well, ill help u out. suppose Tskittsville does come out to be a bust. What about DMILES at the #3 pick? KWAME BROWN at #1. or JONATHAN BENDER at #5 (i think)? Nobody will mistaken them for Garnett, Bryant, or JOneal.

- so the Knicks got burned with a failure in the 1st round. Happens all the time, dude. McLeod isint in the league, BabyJordan isint in the league, etc. But for ur sake, ill pick a HIGH SCHOOLER... how about LEON SMITH? San Antonio got ""burned"" by picking him, huh?

- "The Euroleague is still a second class league. I would love to see the Europlayers play our CBA"

so is the high school league a FIRST CLASS LEAGUE? c'mon man! in my high school, the coach picked 2 TRACK STARS simply b/c they were athletic. too bad, the coach didnt know they tend to TRAVEL and miss the entire BACKBOARD when they shot the ball. But wait, its high school comp... its gotta be better than prof EUROLEAGUE.

btw- i, too, would love to see HIGH SCHOOLERS play our CBA/NBDL.

HIGH SCHOOL league is a joke!!!

hey, DIESEL... i got an idea. ill post again soon.

[Packfill]

If you are going to talk about the bottom of the high school pool than you have to talk about guys like (I know I am butchering these names so I apologize for that) Deshaun Stevenson, Lenny Cooke, Desagana Diop, Jonathan Bender, Ousmane Cisse and the rest of the guys that faded from memory or failed to get drafted. I think I can speak for everyone on this board in saying that no one believes european and other non-US players are better simply because they are from another country. They are drafted because they have potential and skills, not because they are a fad. There certainly are european draft busts, but there are US-born player busts too. A ton of euro players have succeeded in the league to date – Dirk, Peja, Vlade, Gasol, Kirilenko, Kukoc, Sabonis, Petrovic, Ginobili, Marcilonis, Ilglauskus, etc. There are also a ton of young players with potential to succeed – Darko, Okur, Skita, Carbakapa, Boris, Pachulia, Kristic (next year), Delfino (next year), Giricik, Lampe, not to mention other international players like Yao, Nene, and Barbosa.

All these guys have as much or more potential than Bender, Curry, Chandler, Brown, Outlaw, Ebi and Perkins. The NBA is going global much like other aspects of our life – industry, art, cuisine, fashion and culture. It’s not a bad thing if you open your mind to new ideas.

I am trying to flame the post, not the poster, so no harm intended

[chillzatl]

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Not to mention a point you dont seem to want to tackle, why are so many of the top players in Europe former CBA players or College All Americans that didnt or couldnt make it in the NBA.

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haha, did anyone say that the euro leagues were as good as the NBA? no. Did I ever suggeset that? NO. All I've said is that the high draft euro talent has just as much potential as the talent coming from here. Their leagues aren't nearly as talented as the NBA, not even close. But they've got plenty of exceptional talent over there and a LOT more on the way. Their game and its players will continue to evolve and improve.

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"quote all the ignorant rappers" those ignorant rappers have more fame money and musical talent than you so why insult them. And Biggie is dead do you really need to talk about him, what did he ever do to you.

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haha, you call that musical talent? haha. I've been playing guitar since I was about 12 and am above average behind a drum kit. I can also string together some pretty good beats on an 808 (or most any synth/sampler) if that gives me more "street cred". If only I could find a catchy way to drone on and on about all the expensive things I've got, I could be a rapper too! Yah those rappers are just loaded down with musical talent..

It's good to know that you somehow equate happiness with fame and fortune. Fortunately for me that isn't the case. Though my finances continue chugging along at a more than acceptable pace for me. I guess we can't all be rich, handsome and wealthy like you so readily claim to be, right?

Sorry pal, you went 0 for 3 on that one...

[AHF]

Here are the actual first round picks of foreign players (no difference between Euros and others) and high schoolers and I'll let them speak for themselves, although both HSers and foreign players look like good risks to me in the first round:

2003

1 Lebron James (Phenomenon - tremendous pick)

2 Darko Milicic (youngest player in NBA history - too early but no contribution)

11 Mickael Pietrus (too early but not contribution)

17 Zarko Cabarkapa (Suns are thrilled with him)

19 Aleksandar Pavlovic (Jazz are thrilled with him)

21 Boris Diaw-Riffiod (Hawks are thrilled with him)

22 Zoran Planinic (Nets happy with pick; role player this season)

23 Travis Outlaw (too early to tell but no contribution)

26 Ndudi Ebi (too early to tell but no contribution)

27 Kendrick Perkins (too early to tell but no contribution)

28 Leandrinho Barbosa (Suns are thrilled with him)

2002

1 Yao Ming (star; Rockets are thrilled with him)

5 Nikoloz Tskitishvili (too early to tell but no contribution)

7 Nene Hilario (Nuggets are thrilled with him)

8 Amare Stoudemire (star; Suns are thrilled with him)

15 Bostjan Nachbar (bust)

16 Jiri Welsch (Celtics are thrilled with him)

21 Qyntel Woods (too early to tell but no contribution)

2001

1 Kwame Brown (showing some potential but a bust at #1 overall)

2 Tyson Chandler (showing some potential but no meaningful contribution)

3 Pau Gasol (borderline star; Grizzlies thrilled)

4 Eddy Curry (showing potential and just starting to make a contribution despite squeezable softness)

8 Desagna Diop (too early but definite bust potential)

12 Vladimir Radmanovic (Sonics happy with pick but would take Jefferson now)

24 Raul Lopez (Jazz happy with potential shown this season despite injuries from Lopez)

28 Tony Parker (Spurs thrilled with Parker)

2000

3 Darius Miles (bust potential very high but still too early to tell for sure - no meaningful contribution)

16 Hidayet Turkoglu (bust)

23 DeShawn Stevenson (bust)

24 Dalibor Bagaric (bust)

25 Iakovos Tsakalidis (somewhere between OK and bust)

27 Primoz Brezec (bust)

1999

5 Jonathan Bender (bust)

12 Aleksandar Radojevic (actually from community college but bust)

15 Frederic Weis (bust)

24 Andrei Kirilenko (star; Jazz thrilled with pick)

29 Leon Smith (bust)

1998

8 Dirk Nowitzki (star)

17 Radoslav Nesterovic (Minnesota happy with pick)

18 Mirsad Turkcan (bust)

25 Al Harington (Indiana happy with pick)

28 Vladimir Stepania (bust)

[Plainview1981]

"quote all the ignorant rappers" those ignorant rappers have more fame money and musical talent than you so why insult them. And Biggie is dead do you really need to talk about him, what did he ever do to you."

And we should all be thankful that he is.

I agree with CHillz...If money is the greatest thing in the

world how come so many celebs such as Halle Berry try to kill

herself?

But anyway, these I'm growing alittle tired of these no skilled track stars. The guys that can't pass, shoot, turn

the ball over, etc......It's refreshing to see somebody be

able to score 30 points without having to take 40 shots like

the overrated Allen Iverson. Nobody that shots 39% should

EVER win a MVP. Granted, I like to see some athletic plays

but people seem to confuse athletic ability as the greatest

thing about basketball and it's not.

[BlackHawkDown]

Is there anything or anyone you like all I ever hear is you bitch and moan about every player in the league and everthing in life

"Stan I think you need some conseling to help your ass from bouncing off the wal when you get down some" -Eminem

there's qoute from a rapper you and chillz probably like

[cyman3]

"growing alittle tired of these no skilled track stars"

- thats how my high school was. Tall/skinny track stars were starters on the team. How sad!

No wonder, they occasionally got called for travelling. cuz theyre not ballers!

- btw, if ur a 39% shooter... u should ONLY shoot when ur open. 39 is just straight up embarassing. Even for PGs!

[Plainview1981]

"there's qoute from a rapper you and chillz probably like"

What's that supposed to mean? Because he's white? I couldn't

give a shyt what happens to him either.

" I ever hear is you bitch and moan about every player in the league and everthing in life"

LOL And you don't??