HAWKS WIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[chillzatl]

I wouldn't even be sure that this is something BK planned or hoped for. I mean we're competing better now than we have all season. Whether he intended it to happen or not, he's brought in a group of players that if nothing else, bring a hard working attitude to this team.

I mean you can say that guys like Sura and Pryz and Person are playing for contracts. But that's simplifying it a bit too much IMO. Over there careers every one of those players has had to hustle to get where they are. None of them have the talent to loaf and get away with it in this league. They have to play hard to be here, period. I think we're just seeing these guys do what they've always had to do to play in the NBA.

personally I think it's a great thing too. Because the guys who are still here next year are going to be coming off a season where, even though they didn't win, they competed and felt what it was like to be on a team where every other guy on the team is playing just as hard as they are. We have not had a team like that here in 5 years! BK has put us in the position to be the Orlando of 4 years ago. All they had to do was ad an all-star to their team and they went right to the playoffs. We can easily do the same if not better. BRING ON THE DRAFT!

[chillzatl]

see you don't want to face the facts. You want to live under the dellusion that we are a good team that just had a bad season. Sorry, WRONG. We are a losing team whether we tank the last 20 games or not. Are you honestly going to tell me that those 20 games are really going to make a difference to a prime free agent?

let me answer that for you, NO. It will not make one bit of difference. But taking a team full of hard working players and adding a top 3 draft pick will sure as hell give us some hype to help draw in a free agent that can help. Look at what it did for Cleveland. They tanked last season and it hasn't hurt them one bit. If anything it is the sole reason they are where they are today. It allowed them to get Lebron. Now there is no shortage of players who would like to go to Cleveland and play with Lebron.

That could very well be us next year. So don't think that losing is always a bad thing. If you play yoru cards right, which so far Billy has, it can be a franchise changing thing, for the better.

[Diesel]

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The real fan is not someone who roots for his team to lose!

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Hey DV, let me ask you this...

Let's say we were in the playoffs. We were currently a 5 seed and there was 1 last game to play... If we won the game, we keep our 5th seed and we play against Detroit who has dominated us 4-0 on the season. If we lose the game, we drop to a 6th seed and we play Boston who we have dominated 4-0 on the season.

You are a Hawks fan true and blue.

Do you root for the Hawks to win or to Lose?

[chillzatl]

[cyman3]

lol... thats a good one.

the obvious choice here is to lose so we can play BOSTON.

because while it may hurt us in the SHORT RUN (very very very short run)... we are better off in the LONG RUN.

[phoostal]

That's like comparing apples to oranges. Don't you think?

We are comparing the playoffs to rebuilding a team. Most would agree you would hope to have a better match up for the playoffs. But, there are no guarantees in the rebuilding process wether you win or lose.

My plan I mention in the injuries are legit post, was an alternative to just losing and trying to rebuild that particular way. I suggested a way to try to win now and still rebuild in the process.

Right now I'm in the mode of pulling for them to win and if they don't well at least it will help our draft position. But, in no ways do I want them to deliberately lose. Like some suggest.

What if the team that wins the lottery this year finished with the 6th worst record? Would you curse the Hawks for not winning more?

I know that the odds are better when you lose more, but there are never any guarantees. What if we did win and play Detroit in the first round. Odds are sooner or later we would have to win. Odds are sooner or later the Celtics would have to win as well.

P

[Diesel]

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That's like comparing apples to oranges. Don't you think?

We are comparing the playoffs to rebuilding a team. Most would agree you would hope to have a better match up for the playoffs. But, there are no guarantees in the rebuilding process wether you win or lose.

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All of us here would like to see the Hawks be a great team... Period.

However, just like in the example, what we are doing now is sacrificing in the Short run for greater benefits in the long run. That's the bottom line. Therefore it doesn't matter if you are talking about Playoffs or draft lottery... as of now, they are equally important. IN fact, Draft Lottery could be more important.

Just look at the effect that winning the draft lottery had on San Antonio. Duncan is a player who has put them into position to win 2 championships already. Look what being a player did for Chicago. They got Jordan and they had 6 championships with him.

Now... If you doubt the effect that a high lottery pick could have for a team...

Name one modern day (last 20 years) champion whoose main player was not a lottery pick but was a 14-29 guy?

Finishing Strong and getting a mediocre draft pick will win us nothing.

[phoostal]

Just look how good Chicago is doing now. San Antonio was good before Duncan, had one bad year due to a Robinson injury. Got lucky with the draft.

Hey I'm not saying it's not going to work, but there are other ways to rebuild than just relying on the #1 pick in the draft. And ultimately rooting for your team to lose to get that pick.

P

[Diesel]

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Hey I'm not saying it's not going to work, but there are other ways to rebuild than just relying on the #1 pick in the draft.

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Over the last 20 years.... Name me 1 team that has won the NBA championship that didn't have a guy choosen 1-14 as their lead player... Just one team?

It's hard to do because you have:

Spurs - Duncan.

Lakers - Shaq.

Bulls - MJ

Rockets - Olajuwaun.

Now, all of those guys are top 3 picks...

Even if you go deeper...

Detroit - Isiah.

LAL - Magic.

Boston - Bird.

Philly - Dr. J.

Again.. You can not find where the championship team has not had a lottery pick...

So the true admission. In order to win a championship, you have to have a high lottery pick.

Can you admit that?

[AHF]

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That's like comparing apples to oranges. Don't you think?

We are comparing the playoffs to rebuilding a team. Most would agree you would hope to have a better match up for the playoffs. But, there are no guarantees in the rebuilding process wether you win or lose.

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All of us here would like to see the Hawks be a great team... Period.

However, just like in the example, what we are doing now is sacrificing in the Short run for greater benefits in the long run. That's the bottom line. Therefore it doesn't matter if you are talking about Playoffs or draft lottery... as of now, they are equally important. IN fact, Draft Lottery could be more important.

Just look at the effect that winning the draft lottery had on San Antonio. Duncan is a player who has put them into position to win 2 championships already. Look what being a player did for Chicago. They got Jordan and they had 6 championships with him.

Now... If you doubt the effect that a high lottery pick could have for a team...

Name one modern day (last 20 years) champion whoose main player was not a lottery pick but was a 14-29 guy?

Finishing Strong and getting a mediocre draft pick will win us nothing.

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Great post. Great analogy because the point IS the same whether you are looking at the post season or the lottery. A team may go out and win every game against a team that dominated them during the regular season or may lose every game against the team they dominated during the season (remember the Bucks series around 1990?) the same way that a team that tanks may end up failing to win the lottery and a team that barely misses out on the playoffs may end up winning the lottery. It is just about an adjustment of the odds - not a guarantee of results.

I don't blame people who root for the Hawks to win every game for a second. I've done this for the past 15 years and I actually root for the Hawks to do well every game that I watch even though I know the team's draft odds are hurt with every win. Frankly I just want this season to get over with so that we aren't split as a Hawk nation.

When the ping pong balls are spinning, all of us will be rooting for the same thing: the Hawks' number to come up #1 whether we have the 5th best chance, best chance, etc.

[Diesel]

Shaq - #1 overall.

Duncan - #1 overall.

Jordan - #3 overall.

Olajuwaun - #1 overall.

Isiah - #2 overall.

Magic - #1 overall.

Bird - #6 overall.

Dr. J. - #1 overall.

These are the guys who have led their teams into the nba championship and have won it for the past 24 years. These guys...

I'm not talking about the probability of getting the #1 overall.. I'm talking about the probability of winning a championship. What it says to me is that it is There is a 1 in 696 chance that we can win a championship with anything less than a 3 pick overall. It also says that there is a 0% chance that we can win without a top 13 pick as our lead player.

My point is that we have picked above #6 only twice in recent memory. Dj-#6 and we traded the #3 pick away. We would be foolish if we tried to rebuild without a top 6 or top 3 lottery pick....

That's the bottom line.

So to answer the question...

How do you win?

The answer is put yourself in a position to win.

Finishing strong and getting a mediocre draft pick will help us win nothing.

[AHF]

You and I are on the same wavelength Diesal (expect that Moses was the key to that Sixers team, not Dr. J).

[Diesel]

Actually, that was one of my favorite teams of all time and I agree with you sorta... That team would be runner ups without either of those guys...

BTW, who was/is the best team in the History of Basketball?

[phoostal]

The Lakers got Shaq through free agency. Which is one of points in my rebuilding plan. Also, I maybe wrong on this I'm not sure but didn't the Celtics and the Lakers trade with teams to get the picks that got them Bird and Magic. I'm not sure, but I thought one of the two was the case. Also, Moses was acquired by Philly not drafted.

Not to mention Kobe wasn't a top 3 pick. Neither is KG. Now KG hasn't won anything, but he may this year. Kobe has won a ton.

P

[AHF]

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Not to mention Kobe wasn't a top 3 pick. Neither is KG. Now KG hasn't won anything, but he may this year. Kobe has won a ton.

P

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Kobe has won a ton by riding Shaq's jock. When he has tried to carry the team without Shaq it has been a specutacular failure (great individual numbers and plenty of losses). I'll grant you that the team is built for Shaq rather than Kobe but Kobe hasn't proven he is capable of competing for a championship on his own, IMO. I think you could replace Kobe with Vince Carter, Tracy McGrady, Paul Pierce, Ray Allen, or players at other positions and win championships as long as you have Shaq in his prime.

If KG doesn't win even a first round series this year he will go down as a total choker. IMO, Duncan or Shaq would easily have already won a first round series with his teammates (Marbury, Billups, Wally, Gugliotta, Brandon, etc.)

[AHF]

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The Lakers got Shaq through free agency.

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If you are waiting on the Hawks to get someone of Shaq's caliber through free agency you might as well wait for the Pittsburgh Pirates to trade for ARod.

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Which is one of points in my rebuilding plan. Also, I maybe wrong on this I'm not sure but didn't the Celtics and the Lakers trade with teams to get the picks that got them Bird and Magic.

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The Celtics traded picks for other picks to land Robert Parish and Kevin McHale. They were still high lottery picks, though.

The Lakers also traded for the #1 draft pick to take Magic - just showing again how valuable that pick is.

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I'm not sure, but I thought one of the two was the case. Also, Moses was acquired by Philly not drafted.

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You are right about Moses, although I'm not sure why that matters since the Hawks don't have enough talent to trade for one of the 3 or 4 best players in the league like the Sixers did.

The bottomline is that the Hawks' best shot at a championship remains drafting someone high in the lottery.

[phoostal]

I see your point of view, but mine is that it can be done by making trades and through free agency. Not just losing to get a top draft pick.

You mention how you can plug in McGrady, Vince, Iverson, etc. All of the players you mentioned are all stars. Meaning of course you could plug in those guys and still win. Plug in a B. Sura and that will impress me.

Also, the Lakers are 7-8 without Kobe this year and have a winning record without Shaq. But, that is just this year. Who knows what will happen the rest of the year?

As for any big free agents coming here I agree with you when you say don't hold your breath. Why wouldn't any come to a losing franchise or team that is perceived in bad shape. That's why its important for the team to win to show promise. This looks more attractive to pending free agents. But, now that won't happen.

Your right with your bottom line, because the Hawks have no option but to build through the draft. No free agents and no trade value on this team other than the two draft picks and possiblly JT.

P

[Catapult]

There is absolutely no basis for this argument to begin with.

As the draft is rigged, it doesn't matter whether the Hawks win or loose as far as not getting themselves out of the lottery. It doesn't matter if Hawks are the worst or 5th worst because it is up to Stern to decide which pick we get anyway.

So it's irrelevant whether to cheer the Hawks to win or loose because the record doesn't matter as the draft is rigged.

right?

[Diesel]

The Lakers got Shaq by clearing up Salary and starting over.

Jerry West had the fortune of being smart enough to pick up Eddie Jones, NVE. and Elden Campbell as late picks. They were very cheap. However, in order to get Shaq, the Lakers did away with the more expensive players Like Vlade and James Worthy and Sam Perkins. Kobe was the #13 pick. The Lakers traded Vlade for him.

Now...

Phoostal, you were the main one complaining when we gave up players like Sheed, Reef, Theo for Cap Space so that we can go after Free Agents. You can't have it both ways.

You can't applaud the way that the Lakers got Shaq through FAcy and then boo us for doing the same thing.

[phoostal]

Please don't lie Deisel. Find a post where I said I was against trading Reef and Theo. Please find any post. That is an out right lie. Don't put words in my mouth. The only trade I was against was trading Wallace to Detroit. If you would have read my plan in the legit injuries post you would have seen this. But, I can see you didn't.

Yes, the Lakers trade did clear up space. But, the Lakers weren't as bad as the Hawks. As a matter of fact they gave the Phoenix Suns a run for their money in the first round of the playoffs that year. They were showing promise. They were showing that they were not a hopeless franchise. Winning does that for an organization.

It's just going to be a lot tougher to rebuild by drafting players and continuing to lose to build through the draft. You have to win and you have to sign GOOD free agents, not average ones and make good trades. As well as mixing in the draft picks you get.

Right now we are just relying on the draft. Because we have no trade value except draft picks and JT. And no free agent will want to come here that is good.

P