Would you be happy if Bogut's career = Rik Smits?

[Churchill]

We take Bogut at #1 and his game is the equivalence of Rik Smits. Would you be satisfied? Just a look a Rik's numbers over his career.

14.8ppg 6.1rpg 1.28bpg 50%FG 77%FT

He averaged 11.7 ppg and 6.1 rpg as a rookie.

BTW nice to meet everyone!

[pathway23]

Bogut will do better than that.

I think Brad Daugherty's career is a better measuring stick

[Diesel]

Brad Daugherty based on what???

Give a basis...

If that's how you want to say it, then Paul is going to be the next Iverson...

Since, we don't need anything more than Height...

Let's use that!

[Lascar78]

How could you give a basis for the kind of career you think a player will have? It's not a scientific process, it's personal opinion and projection into the future based on what you've seen of those players. Just because 2 people predict the future in different ways doesn't mean one is more right than the other.

I know you've been on your soapbox too long to listen, so all I'm going to say is that there's a reason that so far there are more voters on the board who want Bogut than there are for Paul and Williams combined despite all your slander.

[Diesel]

Quote:

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How could you give a basis for the kind of career you think a player will have? It's not a scientific process, it's personal opinion and projection into the future based on what you've seen of those players.

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If you believe that Bogut will be the next Rik Smits or the next Brad Daugherty, you got to have a reason?? What is it about Daugherty's game that resembles Bogut.

Please. Please don't say the stat line. Bogut collected his stats in the MWC and Daugherty in the ACC.. That's an insult.

You see, you guys come off with baseless info and pass it off as plausible. I ask for one simple thing, what makes you think this... All the sudden, you get Alzhemiers...

It's like me saying... I think Paul is the Next Iverson.

If you ask me why, I say... Well, they're both Short and fast! Makes no sense right? That's how you sound thus far.

[Nicholasp27]

daugherty put up 20/10/4

we expect bogut to put up 20/10/5...thus his contribution will be similiar, tho a lil better, than daugherty...in our opinions

[Diesel]

Quote:

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Daugherty put up 20/10/4

we expect bogut to put up 20/10/5...thus his contribution will be similiar, tho a lil better, than daugherty...in our opinions

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This is exactly what I have been talking about. A comparision of a player who played in the MWC against 6'7" Centers is no comparision to a guy who played in the ACC versus Len Bias, Ralph Sampson, John Salley, etc.

You cannot Name ONE MWC Center that will leave college and go pro! Name one. Yet, you are willing to believe that because the stat line matches that they will be similar. We haven't even got into style of play yet.

Here's my last comment on the matter.

In college, Adonal Foyle's stat line was 22.2 ppg, 14.3 rpg, and 6.4 bpg... I guess that means that he should be better than TIM Duncan, David Robinson, and Shaq. Becuase none of those guys achieved what he was able to acheive statwise? Right NICK-Will-LIE?

[CBAreject]

He means that Bogut's NBA stat line will be like Daugherty's NBA stat line.

He DOES NOT MEAN that Bogut's college stat line was like Daugherty's, so they should translate similarly. He never said that. You are starting an argument against yourself. You should win that one.

For the record, Daugherty put up 10 pts per game and 6 rebs per game as a sophomore at UNC, so clearly the comparison cannot be made on his sophomore stats vs. Bogut's.

By the way, can you cool it with calling nearly everyone who disagrees with you 'dumbass' or 'idiotic'? Some of us do have a measure of intelligence, however slight. I don't know about the rest of them, but I'll vouch for Nicholas and Lascar because they have Georgia Tech degrees. Go Jackets. Buzz.

[Diesel]

What then is his basis??

In other words, it the power of belief right?

It's like if I were to say:

I believe M. Williams will average 25ppg/12rpg/ with 4 bpg. That should be acceptable because that's what I believe?

Yeah..

That's a real good way of thinking.

[CBAreject]

I edited that last post, by the way.

I think you've projected many players before. What is your basis? I think it's just a matter of looking at the way he plays. He looks like he has potential, so you say he could be a an 18/10 center or so....kind of like Brad Daugherty was. It's not that he plays so much like Daugherty, though he does pass well, rebound very well, and score relatively efficiently.

He plays nothing like Smits. Smits was a SOFT 7'4" center. He got 6 rebounds per game in some of his best years.

I don't think the Paul/Iverson comparison is a good analogy. Paul doesn't project to be a dominant scoring threat like Iverson is. Nobody expects 28 ppg out of Paul. I think his ceiling is 17 ppg, 9 apg. Bibby might not be the best comparison, but I think Paul is a better, more creative distributor.

[Diesel]

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By the way, can you cool it with calling nearly everyone who disagrees with you 'dumbass' or 'idiotic'?

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What name did I call you?

[Diesel]

At least in your commentary, you have some basis.

I have watched all these guys. I was using Paul/Iverson as my example to show how idoitic it was to try to characterize a player based on nothing more than Height and speed.

I watched Daugherty for several years in his shortened career. Bogut doesn't have a game similar to Daugherty. Nor does he play similar to Duncan or Mutombo. I mean, the stuff that you read from these Bogut fanatics is crazy. They'd do better to stick with Vlade. And Vlade learned to Flop to overcome his slow footedness on defense. I think Bogut will have to do something similar.

I would also exclude your reference to Bibby for Paul. The thing that makes Paul different is that he controls the passing lane like Iverson and he has floor generalship like Isiah. I think Paul is similar to Isiah in a lot of ways.

I think it's a disservice to greats like Daugherty, Deke, and Duncan to compare them to a guy who made his claim to fame by playing in the MWC and dominating a bunch of 6'7" Centers or better yet a bunch of guys who will not attempt to go pro. Or who made his claim to fame by allowing 5/6 Centers in the Olympics to have their Olympic High against him. Lastly...

about the Olympics... Didn't the Olympics make Carlos Arroyo look better than Jason Kidd? What's Arroyo doing now? Those international rules are something else.

[CBAreject]

you called me dumbass before over the lower pick argument...and you called spiral a dumbass

Not holding a grudge or anything, but I do remember it. I just think you should tone it down a bit with that. We're all Hawks fans, and there aren't many of us. No point in fighting dirty over differences in opinion and understanding.

[Diesel]

Well, above...

I said this idoitic mess. I was talking about using college stats as a basis for Projection without considering the talent of the competition.

Not necessarily the person.

As far as name calling, I've talked with Spiral and apologized and I'm sorry for calling you a dumbass too.

But Nick-will-Lie.. is truth.

[troubleman]

What I don't understand is Diesel likes to point out Bogut's collge experience, or lack of big game experience, but that doesn't stop people from going crazy over the high school kids, who are 2 years younger. Bogut's biggest weakness is his lateral quickness, and it's not even as bad as some of you all believe. I also don't understand how people want to sign "potential" like Dalembert, Kwame, and Stromile Swift, who have shown flashes but haven't been consistent performers in their careers, but want to pass on the potential of Bogut.

[Nicholasp27]

diesel, i said that IN OUR OPINIONS bogut could put up 20/10/5....which would be similiar production to daugherty...u even QUOTED my IN OUR OPINION yet STILL you overlooked it

as far as "nick-will-lie"...very predictable response from u once i called u out on ur lies that "every center had a career game against bogut" and "every team outrebounded bogut"

all i did was miss one center, who i didn't know...and i said i didn't know about international centers...and then i said that duncan and bogut matched pt for pt, reb for reb when bogut was in, so duncan tied bogut when they were both in...if we KNOW that's the case from people who actually WATCHED the game, then we can use that...

but even if u say duncan got 18 against bogut, how is that his career high? it's not even his season average!

so again, your statements below are false and outright lies

a) "Every center had their career game against bogut in the olympics"

b) "Every team outrebounded Bogut in the olympics"

[chillzatl]

You continue to bust on peoples opinions. But all you ever come back with is "he played in the MWC" which means exactly what? It means nothing. If you watn to tell me that "no player from the MWC has ever done XXXX" I will laugh in your face and tell you how many times a player has gone on to do things that nobody in his particular situation has ever done it before. Only a fool would sit there and say "oh he came from XX conference in college, he'll never be anything".

So basically, your reasons for saying Bogut will fail are every bit as senseless as you claim peoples reasons are for thinking he will succeed.

[DominiqueWilkins]

Quote:

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We take Bogut at #1 and his game is the equivalence of Rik Smits. Would you be satisfied? Just a look a Rik's numbers over his career.

14.8ppg 6.1rpg 1.28bpg 50%FG 77%FT

He averaged 11.7 ppg and 6.1 rpg as a rookie.

BTW nice to meet everyone!

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I cerainly hope Bogut has more offer, and he wouldn't be worth the first overall pick.

I feel Bogut will become a better NBA player.

[Wretch]

Paul also is MUCH more athletic. Many times he has outrebounded ACC PFs, Cs, and entire backcourts - including the taller ones that supposedly "shut him down". Additionally, like Iverson, Paul takes the contact in the lane and gets to the line - with regularity. Bibby is a shooter and a passer.

I don't think there is an exact comparision for Paul in the NBA. He's athletic like Iverson, but I can't say he's that explosive. He's a better shooter than Brevin Knight, but is he as solid?

As for the Bogut debate...

Diesel is taking it to an extreme by calling Bogut a bust. But, when you are looking at a dominant 7 footer out of college you have to be a little more careful in your evaluation. A lightning quick guy that and jump and nail a jump shot isn't as hard to map. But a big guy that dominates the paint is something totally different. Sometimes it's skill and sometimes it is strictly a size advantage.

You can also say it doesn't matter what conference a guy plays in and that is true - because a good player is a good player. Duncan would have still been Duncan in the MWC. However, it isn't like a precedent hasn't been set. There are MANY examples of guys who dominate the college ranks but when they come to the NBA, their game seemingly shrinks.

In Bogut's case, it is one or the other.

Either he is a very talented guy who just happens to play in a crap conference.

or

The competition that he has faced isn't big enough or good enough to slow him down.

I've seen it all too often in the draft, which I've probably watched closer than the NBA over the past couple of decades. Paul is my pick now and I'm waiting to see how Bogut's stock fares after the workouts.

[AtLaS]

20, 10, and 5? lol thats like superstar status. I really hope those aren't y'alls true expectations because to me that is laughable.