My own thoughts on our status....

[TheDude]

Well I think I've changed my mind on a couple things after pondering what's been going on so far this season and I have my own opinions on where we're at and what it would take to get better.

I think having Joe Johnson run our point is perfectly fine, which I know is at odds with what many of you feel. I know last night was just one game with him but it's not like that's been his only good game.

But I think we need a good SG to go with him. I'm starting to think it's time to give Salim a fullfledged 30min per game chance at that spot. I really don't see his height being a problem since being 6' is tall enough to guard opposing points. And as mentioned in another thread, I don't think taller sg's guarding him is much of a problem, and honestly, the opposing team would probably have their point guarding him anyway.

Defense down low. We've been lacking that. I think having ZaZa at the 5 and Josh Smith at the 4 should be our solution. Both are pretty good rebounders also so that would help on the boards. Combine that with solid D on the wing by Joe Johnson and we have a fairly ok defense I think.

So that leaves the 3 spot. Harrington of course is our best player other than Joe so of course you'd want to put him there (although his skills are more prototypical of a pf). For the future, I think it's Marvin meaning, you guessed it, a trade of Harrington. I've been against the trade recently but thinking of our positional murkiness right now and the need to get somewhat of a set lineup in there where players' strengths can be utilized made me reconsider that.

Now if you feel that Al should play the three and Marvin given more years to develop, I can too see that. But eventually Marvin's time will come.

So that leaves Chill out. Well Tayshaun Prince (the one he's compared to alot) didn't start for a couple years I beleive. And honestly Chill hasn't played well. Actually i take that back, he hasn't played aggressive. And shooting guards are supposed to be pretty aggressive. hence the phrase "shooting" guard. He is more of a three in naturaly talent so it would be best if he can backup that position or maybe just be a utility player.....unless he shows something different.

ok, that was long, i'm done...

[Diesel]

I think there are a couple of things to notice about this team:

JC = a SF. Until you understand this, you don't understand a whole lot of what's going on on the court.

JJ = a SG. This is the second part of the equation. JJ got assists last night, but he big contribution was scoring, hitting the jumper... When Lue was on the court in the second half, I think that's when JJ played the best.

Salim.. I think Salim is really a Sg too. I think he can shoot all day and I like his attitude.

Many of the changes that you alluded to don't have to be made right now.. SO, I say we try playing:

Lue, JJ, JS or JC, Al, and Zaza for a time before making any big decisions...

I would give them at least 10 games playing lots of minutes.

I don't know how to classify JS. I think Smoove has the ability to learn to be either a Pf or a Sf right now. what that really means is that he has skills at neither position. I am glad that he has worked on his shooting. Now he needs to build his dribble penetration if he is to be a SF or he needs to work on his post moves if he is to be a PF. I think having Al play with him is great becuase Al is probably the best offensive mentor Smoove can have. Even better than Walk.

Zaza is our C. Period. Unless NY gives up Frye, this is the case.

Marvin is not ready to contribute. All the potential means nothing. I think when we look back in 3 yrs, we will say... We blew it. Still, we have a responsibility to make him more than Tim Thomas... So he's BU Sf. I guess that makes JS more PF than Sf most of the time...

Our weakest position thus far is PG. I think Lue can be a PG but he's never been trained primarily as a PG. I think of him as an off-guard. He's worked in the triangle (where you don't need to handle the ball) and he's failed in both Orlando and Houston where a primary Ball handler is important. I think he's a good BU but not starter material.. However, he is what we have right now...

I would actually give Ivey a little more time. At least Ivey plays defense.

So there it is....

Lue/Ivey

JJ/Salim

JS/JC/Marvin

JJ/JS/Batista

Zaza/Edwards/Thomas(??)

This is what I see.. The troubled areas are in red.

[exodus]

I would take issue only with the backcourt. JJ is not now and never will be a starting calibur pg. At best he will be able to play a few backup minutes there. A big game against the worst D in the league doesn't change the fact that he has been lousy at the point.

And Salim does get bothered by taller defenders. The Indy game was a perfect example when they put their tall backup pg whatsisname on Salim and he couldn't hardly get off a good shot. I think Salim will be more of a situational player. Against a strong D with a tall backcourt I think he will have trouble making an impact unless the Hawks ball movement is exceptional, which as of right now is a pipe dream.

The JJ-Salim starting backcourt has already tried and quickly discarded.

[RAHMOR]

Let me say I've been a long time Knicks. Liked the Hawks but didn't follow them closely until I moved to Atlanta 5 years ago. Started with the Knicks in the late 80's/early 90's so this is my first time truly seeing a basketball team rebuild from scratch and have to say it's been a tough process but I'm starting to get the hang of it.

The more we have lost this season the better I have taken it. I think I can handle the losing for the time being so long as we give effort. Some of the mistakes we make on defense like the last play when Charlie got that lay-up upset me but the end game score doesn't. I guess I just see the light at the end of the tunnel. We do have alot of potential and talent on this team but are far from complete.

Point Guard. JJ is a great player but I don't think he should be the point. His skills and the teams potential are not maximized with him at this position and that should be what the Hawks are aiming for as an organization. I don't think Salim or Lue is the answer here either. I like what I see from Ivey and maybe he should be kept as a long term back-up.

Shooting Guard. JJ is the man here with Salim backing him(if he needs one, JJ played 47 minutes last night.) Maybe if Salim backs up the point in the long run we can keep Chilz backing up here as well.

Small Foward. Al should be moved here permanently. Chilz should back him up for the time being. If we can resign Al in the offseason he should stay here.

Power Foward. I am for Josh playing defense here. along with an occasional appearance from Marvin splitting his time with Batista at this position.

Center. This is ZaZa's spot until someone takes it.

Coach. I will complain about what Woody is doing because he makes tons of mistakes but will give him this season to show improvement. If there is even the smidget of a chance he can transfer that great Detroit defensive here to Atlanta than all this losing will be worth it.

Marvin. Disappointment so far, seems to be regressing already. I hope he becomes what he is supposed to be soon. He's supposed to be good in 3-5 years but we really don't have that much time. It better be three cause in five years JJ will be leaving, ZaZa has 4 on his contract and the Josh's have about 4 left if they don't resign so if he's takes five years to be good he'll be by himself.

Al. Would honestly like to resign him. We need to start keeping around some veterans. Even if he is a long term 6th man there's nothing wrong with that. I think it's impossible for a team in the NBA today to compete without being over the cap anyway so I suggest the Hawks do what they have to. When I look at teams like San Antonio and Miami and I don't believe it is possible to be too deep.

I'm fairly happy with what we have and what we can still aquire in the draft. I like Aldridge the most so far this young season and would rather have a veteran point guard but won't be mad at all if we end up with Rondo. We still have a couple of promising players overseas and that's why I think people like Charles Barkley believe the Hawks have a great future ahead of them. There are so many possibe combo's for our future we just have to wait and be patient as hard as it is. Just look

JJ,Salim,Marv,Josh,ZaZa

or Rondo,JJ,Al,Jsmoove,ZaZa,

or JJ,CHilz,Al,Aldridge,ZaZa,

or Cenk,JJ,Josh,Aldrige,Anderson

and that's just the beginning and so is this season.

GO HAWKS!

[unknownjdb]

Well, this looks like the sounding board I was looking for. All this past week I've been reviewing our lineup, the talent, and where we should be going (up d@mnit). With this and the recent article about Chicago and NY hunting Harringtion in the off-season and with the report that NY would like T.Thomas back, I came up with the following trade to help all respective parties.

ATL trades

Harrington (CHI)

Lue (NY)

CHI trades

Hinrich or Duhon (ATL)

O.Harrington (ATL)

Piatkowski (ATL)

T.Thomas (NY)

NY trades

A.Hardaway (CHI)

Barnes (ATL)

Lee (ATL)

ATL Lineup

Hinrich / Ivey / Stoudamire

Johnson / Stoudamire(6th) / Piatkowski

Childress / Williams / Barnes

Smith / O.Harrington / Lee

Pachulia / Edwards / Batista

Why ATL does it?

Not only does this trade give us a solid PG and fill out our roster, but it also frees up some more play time for Childress, Smith and Williams. Piatkowski and Barnes comes off the books at seasons end and we'll have Hinrich and O.Harrington (both low-medium sized contracts) for two years. Lee could end up being part of the longterm plan.

Why CHI does it?

They get the player they want, send Thomas on his way, frees up a starting spot for Gordon, and clears off a LARGE amount of capspace at the end of the year that they can use to win Harrington over with.

Why NY does it?

They get rid of one player with a large contract with little play time for a player that they want back (and the money still comes off the books at the end of the year. Plus they get Lue, who I could see LB starting and/or splitting time with Nate.

RealGM Trade Checker ID #2678164

[unknownjdb]

Another possible, simpler trade I checked (though I don't have the ID, but it worked) is between ATL and CHI.

ATL trades

Harrington

Lue

Delk

CHI trades

Hinrich or Duhon

T.Thomas

ATL Lineup

Hinrich / Ivey

Johnson / Stoudamire(6th)

Childress / Williams

Smith / T.Thomas / J.Thomas

Pachulia / Edwards / Batista

CHI Lineup

Duhon / Pargo / Delk

Gordon / Lue / Basden

Nocioni / Deng / Piatkowski

A.Harrington / Sweetney / Songaila / Allen

Chandler / O.Harrington

With ATL, this fixes certain problems (see previous post) while also leaving room for the next draft, the off-season (with T.Thomas' contract coming off the books) and the possibility of bringing over Anderson finally.

Chicago gets what they want without losing too much.

Some would argue that we are getting jipped, that we aren't getting enough back. Well, I see this as a necessary step back in order to move forward. Childress, Smith and Williams all need as much PT as possible in order to be on the fast-track to being REGULAR contributors.

Could our lineup someday relate to...

ATL = DET

Hinrich = Billups' leadership

Johnson = Rip's scoring

Childress = Prince's overall play

Smith = Big Ben's presence underneath

Zaza = Sheed's attitude/contribution

[mudderfudder77]

If Chicago has an untouchable, it is Hinrich. I don't see Paxson trading him, and especially not for Harrington. I could see them parting with Duhon (although he is a base year comp player and that makes it more difficult) before they would ever part with Hinrich.

[TheDude]

so i guess i'm the only one that thinks that Joe Johnson can be our point guard? look he may not be Jason Kidd, but he is definitely serviceable as a scoring point guard and i really don't think his play is the reason for our demise.

we should focus on what is really causing our problems and then later can tweak the things the are smaller(joe being a scoring point rather than dishing point)...and to me, it's D in the post and getting a 3rd player to step up on scoring. i truly believe that every team needs a big three.

[Final_quest]

It could be all three.

PG.

Third scoring option.

Better post defense.

[unknownjdb]

Quote:

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we should focus on what is really causing our problems and then later can tweak the things the are smaller(joe being a scoring point rather than dishing point)...and to me, it's D in the post and getting a 3rd player to step up on scoring. i truly believe that every team needs a big three.

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The reason I want to get Hinrich or Duhon is so that Johnson can have the freedom to score MORE; he (JJ) really needs to be averaging close to 30 on this team. He can still get all his other numbers, but our number one scoring option should not be our PG position (especially if said player would fit much better at SG). Johnson can still play a few minutes a game at point, but he should mainly be on the run trying to get an open shoot.

Another reason I want Hinrich or Duhon is to have that extra passer who can find the open man. This will HOPEfully allow Smith and Childress to score more in their starting roles. We might even see ALL of our starters in double figure averages. Our big three contributors would be Johnson (28ppg), Smith (16) and Pachulia (14) with Hinrich (12), Stoudamire (12), Childress (10) and Williams (8) all following suite.

With Harrington moved, Smith can play PF fulltime and guard downlow. This may take a little time, but he'll become a force beside Pachulia.

PT Breakdown

Guards

- Johnson 38 +

- Hinrich 32 +/-

- Stoudamire 25 +/-

- Ivey 5 +/-

Forwards

- Smith 30 +/-

- Childress 30 +/-

- Williams 28 +/-

- T.Thomas 10 +/-

Centers

- Pachulia 34 +/-

- Edwards 6 +/-

- Batista 4 +/-

[exodus]

Chicago will never let Hinrich go and JJ will never be a 30 ppg scorer. I would be happy with 20ppg from him as long as he is shooting 45% or better.

[unknownjdb]

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Chicago will never let Hinrich go...

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This is why I say Hinrich or Duhon. I would much rather Hinrich, hence the reason I place him in my lineup. I figured everyone would understand that with "Hinrich or Duhon" being said, if one is surely not happening, replace one with the other.

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JJ will never be a 30 ppg scorer.

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I think it's possible, especially with him getting the ball where he needs it and being our "main" option. On this team he should at least get 26 ppg.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Quote:

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so i guess i'm the only one that thinks that Joe Johnson can be our point guard? look he may not be Jason Kidd, but he is definitely serviceable as a scoring point guard and i really don't think his play is the reason for our demise.

we should focus on what is really causing our problems and then later can tweak the things the are smaller(joe being a scoring point rather than dishing point)...and to me, it's D in the post and getting a 3rd player to step up on scoring. i truly believe that every team needs a big three.

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(( clapping ))

Great posts Doc. I agree with everything you said. While people are trying to trade this and trade that, we should be trying to make the best out of what we have right now.

I absolutely hate to see Salim in the game for 4 - 5 minute stretches at a time, and only getting one shot. Run some plays for the guy, instead of just letting him stand out on the perimeter and wait for the ball to be swung to him. Salim should be getting 10 - 15 shots a game.

And you're right on the money about JJ playing the point. He would be fine if he had a veteran SG out there with him. A Spreewell or even a Wesley Person would be adequate for JJ right now, until we get that PG here.

But people act like it's a crime for JJ to be playing the point. Shoot, he may be the best option we have right now at the position. If Lue played like he did last night in every game, I'd have little problem with him. LOL . . but we all know that he doesn't play like that most of the time.

If Lue runs the team, and JJ is the fist option, I have no problem with that. But Lue is too passive of a PG these days to justify giving him 30 minutes a game. Because of that, I want to see JJ at the point at least 20 - 25 minutes a game, along with Salim beside him at the 2 . . with PLAYS being ran for Salim. JJ could run the team, while deferring to Salim and others for offense . . and JJ could still get his own shot whenever he wanted.

[CrawDaddy]

Quote:

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I think it's possible, especially with him getting the ball where he needs it and being our "main" option. On this team he should at least get 26 ppg.

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I don't think it is possible either. JJ has been a streaky shooter thus far this season, and I don't see him putting up more than 20ppg with any type of consistency. ON top of streakiness, he also likes to distribute the ball a lot of times where he should probably shoot it.

[unknownjdb]

Quote:

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JJ has been a streaky shooter thus far this season, and I don't see him putting up more than 20ppg with any type of consistency. ON top of streakiness, he also likes to distribute the ball a lot of times where he should probably shoot it.

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Add the fact that JJ's our main ball-handler to also being our main scoring option and you get a streaky shooting percentage. If we had a real starting PG he would have more time to find that open shot and the ball would get to him at the right moments in a set. He would still create for others but he'd also have more freedom to actually be our big scorer (minus the streakiness).