I was right! - thread locked, enough already

[Diesel]

Is a comparison of Dirk and Rasheed.

I think that both of these players have the same type game.. In fact, Sheed has a much better post game and is much better defensively.

However, I have NEVER heard any MVP buzz for Rasheed and He is the reason why Detroit was a championship team...

However, Dirk has played with Nash.. He has done well. He has been an allstar.. and anytime Dirk has a 20/10 season going, he gets MVP buzz.

Why is that?

[AHF]

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Is a comparison of Dirk and Rasheed.

I think that both of these players have the same type game.. In fact, Sheed has a much better post game and is much better defensively.

However, I have NEVER heard any MVP buzz for Rasheed and He is the reason why Detroit was a championship team...

However, Dirk has played with Nash.. He has done well. He has been an allstar.. and anytime Dirk has a 20/10 season going, he gets MVP buzz.

Why is that?

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IMO, it is because Wallace plays too much as a complimentary player. Dirk and KG both carry their teams on their back and are the primary focus of their teams every game. Wallace has never embraced that kind of role for his team.

In addition, Wallace has always had attitude issues (internal team strife at its worst and excessive technicals at its best) which takes away from the image of him as a team leader.

Personally, I think KG would have taken the Dallas teams farther than Dirk did had he played with them the last 6 years.

[Lascar78]

yeah I agree. Sheed had the potential to be a MVP caliber player, but he never quite applied himself. He'd rather yap it up and settle for shooting 3s than giving full effort every night. He was one of my favorite players when he was a blazer, and I found it really disappointing that he never applied himself. He never played at the level Dirk is currently playing at though

[chillzatl]

simply saying that "any time Dirk posts a 20/10 season he gets MVP buzz" is completely absurd. I have only ever heard Dirks name mentioned along with MVP this season and last. In both cases it was legit. Last year he put up 26/10 while leading his team to the best record in the league. Despite all this, the nod he got was more lip service to show recognition for his and his teams improvement. This year, due to his improved defensive effort I feel the mention carries more weight. But I still consider him a long shot.

From a stats standpoint, I don't think it's very close at all:

Dirk has a 21ppg career average, 8.9rpg, 2.5apg, etc etc. 46% fg, 38% 3pt. He also leads and carries his team and has never done anything detrimental to it.

Rasheed on the other hand has a 15ppg career average, 6.9rpg, 2apg. His career fg% is higher, at 48% with a 33% 3pt. But he also has never carried a team. He's a #2 guy. Yes, he is a better defender and HAS a better post up game, though he doesn't use it nearly enough anymore. He has also hurt his team on many occasions with his childish behaviour. Case in point, his current Pistons team that is trying to get the best record in the league. He just got himself suspended for too many tech's this season.

I don't think it's a fair comparison at all. One guy is practically unguardable and has gotten a little better every year. The other guy has underachieved his entire career and has hurt his team(s) with his behavior more times than you can count on your fingers and toes.

[exodus]

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That really shows how special Nash is this year, and also shows that there is no racial bias in this at all. If anyone says there is a bias then you are a bigot plain and simple.

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Exactly. And if you watched him in the playoffs last year you know that he can be a dominant scorer when that is what is best for the team. He went off.

Saying he isn't a top 20 player is totally ridiculous.

[Diesel]

I just used Wallace because he has a similar type game to Dirk's.

However, I'm sure that statwise, Dirk puts up better numbers..

Still, I don't think that Dirk is MVP material.

As long as there is Lebron, Kobe, Brand, Wade, Tmac, Nash, Duncan, and KG in the league.

I would say that it wasn't until last year that Dallas ran a defense that could hide all of Dirk's defensive defiencies that he heard MVP buzz.

I say that Dirk is the start (top) of second tier guys for MVP realistically.

Those guys are like:

Vince, Kidd, Ray Allen, Shaq (this year), Yao, Paul, and Gasol.

Over his career, Dirk has been as deserving of the MVP buzz as Wallace..

[chillzatl]

I think that's retarded. I wouldn't put him as the front runner. But to say that he's not a legit candidate, especially over KG and Tmac, is retarded. He's the best player and leader on a top 5 team and puts up ridiculous stats. But MVP aside, he's still a top 10 player in the league.

[Plainview1981]

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Anyone who doesn't think Dirk is a top 10 NBA player is crazy. The guy is arguably the best shooter in the NBA and he can get his shot off against ANYONE with or without a pick. He is also a great rebounder and an excellent passer. Everyone thought Dallas would fall apart without Nash and yet they have been BETTER since Nash left with Dirk handling the ball more. I LOVE KG but I believe that Dirk could have won a lot more with Cassell, Spree and Wally World at his side than KG ever did.

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Dirk is a good rebounder... Not a great one. When you're a 7 PF playing 36MPG you should have to be averaging 10RPG to be considered a great rebounder.

They've been better because they're a more defensive team than they were. Dirk doesn't really offer much more than shooting ability. You have guys like Brand that CAN average 25/10 while blocking shots and playing great defense. No doubt in my mind Brand has had a better year.

I would take the following players over Dirk:

LeBron James

Kobe Bryant

Kevin Garnett

Tim Duncan

Amare Stoudmire

Paul Pierce

Allen Iverson

Tracy McGrady

Elton Brand

Dwayne Wade

I think Dirk does fit in the 10-15 range... But not much better than that.

[Diesel]

I didn't say that Dirk wasn't a top 10 guy. From what I said, he'd be about 9th.

What I did say is that to me, all those top tier guys goes before him...

As far as your statement about Tmac and KG.

If I were starting a basketball team...

And I could pick between KG, Tmac, and Dirk to be my centerpiece.

I would pick both KG and Tmac before I would pick Dirk.

KG because KG can do it all at a very high level.

When has Dirk ever averaged more than 11 rebounds...

KG is averaging more than 12 rebounds now is always first team all defensive PLUS he gets more assists.

Don't confuse team success with individual success... In either case. KG is a much better all around player. But people boo and Hiss KG because his team doesn't win as many as it should. I don't think you can fault him for the makeup of his team other than salary structure.

[DrReality]

I think you guys have run amuck and gone beyond the scope of this blog. Sounds like it belongs on the history channel or something.

Seems as the year has progressed and the record digressed, the conflict on the board has done anything but regress.

I agree with one think Al said: We need to keep it a game and have fun. Same for the blog. Peace.

[CBAreject]

Not once did you use "you're" in lieu of "your" to mean "you are" in that abyss of reason. You'd think you would get it right even accidentally at least once in a while.

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I'm the oppressed minority yet your [sic] the one who is probably broke and relatively uneducated

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Uneducated relative to whom? I'm also a Tech alumn with 2 engineering degrees, and I'm in medical school at Duke. Broke? I'm in med school, and I've paid my own way with scholarships. My lower-middle class status didn't give me much of a nest-egg going in, either.

Oh, and how can you say in one post that you hate it when people say "the white man kept me down", then turn around and say that you're "the oppressed minority"? You're still talking out of both sides of your mouth.

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No its [sic] because I am a Ni**er, We [sic] just sit around robbing poor whitemen like yourself of all your opportunities

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I never said that blacks "rob" whites of all their opportunities. It's actually the Asian-Americans that you rob.

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The truth of the matter is Affirmative Action was established to force racist instituitons [sic] to let 5 or 6 over qaulified [sic] black [sic] in a year

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I know what AA was for. The man who coined the phrase said that organizations should take "affirmative action" to ensure that applicants were treated without regard to race, color, creed, etc. This was sorely needed on the heels of the Civil Rights movement.

What AA became, though, was a movement for reparations. The lowering of standards in some cases was justified by the assertion that past discrimination against a group would negatively affect the performance of individuals in that group. This is often called "reverse discrimination", as the over-qualified Asian-Americans must meet higher standards to avoid being over-represented.

Schools generally use quotas to meet diversity regulations, even though these quotas were outlawed in a few big court cases. Recently, UMich was forced to abandon it's 150 pt scoring system that gave blacks and Hispanics 20 pts as a "head start" [

see the Gratz vs. Bollinger case of 2003

]

That you claim this lowering of standards does not occur is laughable when there are SUPREME COURT CASES THAT SHOW IT DOES (in 2003, no less!). Show me some data that AA only benefits "over-qualified blacks". I can show you data that blacks have lower average scores than whites (and asians, particularly) in medical school admissions.

...but who needs facts and data when you can shout really loud?

[CBAreject]

Who is making "black people are keeping us down" arguments? I never said that. I know AHF didn't say that. For my part, I asserted that blacks should not argue whites were keeping them down. After all, they do receive preferential admissions/job offers in many cases. It was white men who instituted affirmative action in the first place.

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it is as rare for an underqaulified [sic] black to get in as it is a underqaulified [sic] rich kid, [sic] to get in

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What does that even mean? Why are we comparing black admission standards to those of rich kids? Also, why do you seem to feel those are mutually exclusive groups?

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believe it or noit [sic] AA has no effect on admissions

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OK, I will choose the 2nd option, "not". I suggest you read the Gratz vs. Bollinger Supreme Court case review to see what kind of stuff is going on in the 21st century in admissions to top universities.

[wasBlackHawkDown]

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Is a comparison of Dirk and Rasheed.

I think that both of these players have the same type game.. In fact, Sheed has a much better post game and is much better defensively.

However, I have NEVER heard any MVP buzz for Rasheed and He is the reason why Detroit was a championship team...

However, Dirk has played with Nash.. He has done well. He has been an allstar.. and anytime Dirk has a 20/10 season going, he gets MVP buzz.

Why is that?

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Exactly, Sheed has a very similar game, comparable numbers and even more team success than Dirk, yet Sheed instead of praise gets lambasted in the media and is portrayed as wild and out of control, Dirk gets a technical foul....he's passionate, Sheed gets a technical foul....he's crazy

[wasBlackHawkDown]

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In addition, Wallace has always had attitude issues (internal team strife at its worst and excessive technicals at its best) which takes away from the image of him as a team leader.

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Chris Bozworth, Jeremy Shocky run their mouths .....they are confident

Sheed, Keyshawn Johnson run their mouths.....attitude problem

[wasBlackHawkDown]

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Sheed had the potential to be a MVP caliber player, but he never quite applied himself.

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Sheed wins a ring, goes to 3 finals and a conference final.....underachiever

Dirk goes to one conference final.......A great leader

[wasBlackHawkDown]

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But he also has never carried a team. He's a #2 guy

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No Micheal Finley wasnt the teams leading scorer and primary option for most of Dirk's career.......Dirk #2 option to Finley.....Sheed #2 Option to Scottie Pippen, Steve Smith......resutl Sheed is a loser, Dirk is a hero

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He has also hurt his team on many occasions with his childish behaviour. Case in point, his current Pistons team that is trying to get the best record in the league. He just got himself suspended for too many tech's this season.

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Sheed wins a championship and leads his team to the best record in the league......A Cancer

Dirk never wins in the playoffs but leads his to to its best record ever one season........The best player in the league!

[wasBlackHawkDown]

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Dirk is a good rebounder... Not a great one. When you're a 7 PF playing 36MPG you should have to be averaging 10RPG to be considered a great rebounder.

They've been better because they're a more defensive team than they were. Dirk doesn't really offer much more than shooting ability. You have guys like Brand that CAN average 25/10 while blocking shots and playing great defense. No doubt in my mind Brand has had a better year.

I would take the following players over Dirk:

LeBron James

Kobe Bryant

Kevin Garnett

Tim Duncan

Amare Stoudmire

Paul Pierce

Allen Iverson

Tracy McGrady

Elton Brand

Dwayne Wade

I think Dirk does fit in the 10-15 range... But not much better than that.

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Co-signing

[Seano]

Ugh, this thread is absolutely terrible.

This entire thing should be nuked, in my opinion. Discussions of race have no place on a Hawks message board.

[wasBlackHawkDown]

Yes the black-white test gap exist,.....yada yada, ni**ers are stupid, yet blacks @ white institutions have similar GPAs as their white counterparts. .......Ever consider that white benefit from AA.....98% Blacks used to attend HBCUs not only 49% do.......What you mean black people dont have to go to white colleges? No......You mean they could go to Howard, Meharry or Charles Drew instead of Emory or USC.....No couldnt possibly be.

Oh and by the way in that U.Mich case what you dont realize is that only a small percntage of the applicants @ Michigan are white, any whites that didnt get, all 10 of them, in were borderline anyway.

AA doesnt effect one white single person in a negative way, it only forces institutions that would not let a single black person in to let in a handful. But this doesnt help blacks because every black student that goes to a white institution is tution money leaving a historicaly black college or university. Every athlete that wins a national championship for Florida or Texas is taking one from Grambling or South Carolina State. So whine all you want but at the end of the day the fact that their white institutions use blacks so that they can have more diverse views in liberal arts studies, give white students exposure to different cultures & religions, and gaurantee that their football and basketball recruits wont be scared to that they are walking into a Klan rally.

But then again I'm just a dumb black gorilla that got by in life due to AA and lowered admissions standards. Yesterday I walked into a bank and they said " Hey here's a bag of money...sorry that we colonized your homeland, benefited from a system of racial oppression and at one point raped 40% of all black females". You know Ni**ers are out of hand, the poor white man has to work 10 times as hard everyday just to get by.

[exodus]

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Exactly, Sheed has a very similar game, comparable numbers and even more team success than Dirk, yet Sheed instead of praise gets lambasted in the media and is portrayed as wild and out of control, Dirk gets a technical foul....he's passionate, Sheed gets a technical foul....he's crazy

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Dirk's career numbers are 22/8.5, Sheeds are 16/7. Saying they are comparable is a major stretch.

Sheed has always had a problem with the refs and used to get tossed constantly. In fact he just got a 1 game suspension for getting his 16th technical. His attitude problem is obvious to anyone who isn't a blind apologist.

If anything Dirk has been too laid back and unemotional on the court for most of his career.

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Dirk is a good rebounder... Not a great one. When you're a 7 PF playing 36MPG you should have to be averaging 10RPG to be considered a great rebounder.

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Dirk is averaging two more rebounds per game than Sheed this year yet I don't see you criticizing Sheed's rebounding. I wonder why.

YOu say you don't like 7 footers who play on the perimeter, yet Sheed has taken more 3s this season than Dirk has ever taken his entire career. Pretty strange since Sheed averages only 16 ppg. Yet I don't see you criticizing Sheed.

Your racial bias is so obvious it is ridiculous.