Why Shelden is the right pick for us... The Debate

[mrhonline]

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Im just saying turnover stats can be misleading because of carelessness with the basketball in general, it is not necessarily a reflection of the point guard.

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I wasn't trying to disagree, I was trying to add a complement to yours.

Turnovers can be misleading for another reason - overall team pace. Teams that push the ball will obviously have more turnovers than half court teams.

That's why the differential is a better stat IMHO.

[Guest Walter]

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It does not suprise me anymore that BK has only aquired one all-star (Gasol) in his whole career.

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Has another GM ever had as much draft capitol as BK in the history of the NBA?

Doubtful.

Fact is BK hurt us as the GM for Memphis and he's hurting us now.

W

[SportsGuy]

Hahahahahahaha!!!!

Please pass whatever you're smokin'! You compare Shelden Williams to Mutumbo, Mourning, and Okafor? All three of these guys were consensus top 4 picks. Nobody pegged Williams as even top 10 except Billy Knight. How many analysts pegged those guys as potential all-stars? A lot. How many have pegged Williams as such? Nodody. All defensive teamer? Again, nobody. And how far back in the basketball annals did you have to go to get those stats? All the way back to when much of the league's teams averaged over a 100 ppg. You're humorous. I'll give ya that. You cannot compare the scoring differential of the early 90s with that of today. Teams averaged well over 100 ppg game back then. Now just a handful reach that plateau. It's apples and oranges. They're both fruits, but they sure as hell don't look or taste the same. Neither does the NBA of the early 90s to present day. Mutumbo, Mourning, and Okafor are all taller with longer wingspans than Shelden and centers as well. Good comparisons for Shelden have been made. A poor man's Oakley, Antonio Davis, Dale Davis etc. These are not defensive all-stars. These are adequate players but not guys that will turn around a defense.

Okafor was a consensus #1 pick and dominated in the NCAA tournament two years in a row if I remember correctly. Shelden did no such thing. As it has been pointed out, Shelden had some really downer games against comparable big men during his stay at Duke. Killingsworth, Hansborough, Williams...the list goes on. The ACC was also very weak in terms of its big men. He mostly played against less talented SF that tried to post him inside. He'll get no such luxury in the NBA.

The team's defense...Josh Smith is a good HELP defender. He gets beat constantly on defense. Why do you think the lane opens up so badly? Nobody gets intimidated by him. They go around him and dunk on Zaza. Just like they'll go around him and dunk on Williams or get fouled by Williams. Childress? Please. The guy couldn't guard my grandma if she was holding a sack of groceries. Marvin? No comment.

These are not good individual defensive players right now. You mentioned Dallas. Dallas was very poor defensively up until this year. And don't give me this crap about Miami winning with its defense shutting down the Mavs. The Heat won because of one player, Wade. Anybody that watched that series will tell you Dallas dominated Miami every game, but they couldn't figure out how to stop Wade. Which is why you draft a Foye or Roy. A guy that can overcome a defense. Emphasize your area of greatest strength. Make it better. The Hawks offense is not that bad. It could be good with another playmaking guard besides JJ. Defense is a mentality. Dallas didn't have it until Avery Johnson willed it into those players. Woodson will have to do the same for the Hawks. Or he won't and he'll get fired. Players athletic enough to score a bunch of points can be taught defense. You can't teach offensive ability. Either a guy has it or he doesn't. Defense is mostly mental. It can be taught. But putting it on the shoulders of a 6'8" (if that) rookie is laughable.

It doesn't matter if you shoot 49% from the field if you turn the ball over and don't get to the free throw line. It means the other team will still get more shots than you and outscore you. It's not about the best percentage. It's about the most points scored from the field and from the line, period. Get a good PG so your'e best player (JJ) can move without the ball and be in more advantageous positions to score. The same with Smith, Childress (Lord knows he can't shoot of the dribble), and Marvin. As good as Wade is he still got help with Payton, Jason Williams, etc. with ballhandling duties and running the offense. He had/has good compliments to his game because he has guards he can count on. JJ does not. Childress is no playmaker. Neither is Lue or Ivey or (fill in the blank). JJ has no guards than he can count on.

I certainly disagree about the talent level of Dallas under Nellie and under AJ. It's about the same, but I do give credit above to AJ for putting that defensive mentality into the players. Phoenix got Bell and Thomas for depth. Nothing more and nothing less. Thomas would've barely played if Stoudamire had been healthy. And the clothesline Bell gave Kobe showed you his idea of defense.

You helped me make my point though. It's not the players in regards to defense. It's the coach. Dirk played under both Nellie and AJ. When did he decide to play defense? Under AJ. The Hawks don't need new players as much as they need a new philosophy from their coach (or just a new coach)if that's your argument.

Teams outgun because that's what they're good at. Teams try to outplay the other team with defense because they have less talented offensive players. Temple University is the biggest example of this. In the NBA the San Antonio team that beat the Knicks in 2000 is a good example of that. Robinson, Duncan, and old Sean Elliot manage to win the whole thing? They won with defense because they had little to no talent on offense as team.

"20th in assists is still not LAST.

However, we're near the bottom in every defensive category.

We're a good looking woman that's bleeding to death and you want the Dr. to give us Implants."

No, it's not last but it's near the bottom. And yet the team still averaged 97 ppg with one playmaker. Imagine if the Hawks had two. Who in the East would be able to stop us offensively? And how many PPG would this team average if it jumped into the top 10 in assists? How many droughts did this team go into offensively last year? A lot. Mostly when JJ left the game. That shouldn't happen. The offense shouldn't roll over and die when one guy leaves the game. That's what happens when you don't have a PG to run an offense. So ithout a playmaking PG we'll still be 20th in assists and still be LAST in most defensive statistics. Why? Because now we have a rotation problem at the 3, 4, and 5 spots with guys playing out of position.

The Hawks aren't a bleeding woman. They're a bunch of talented actors without a director to tell them where to go and what to do.

[Diesel]

Let me show you how to really laugh at somebody...

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Please pass whatever you're smokin'! You compare Shelden Williams to Mutumbo, Mourning, and Okafor? All three of these guys were consensus top 4 picks. Nobody pegged Williams as even top 10 except Billy Knight. How many analysts pegged those guys as potential all-stars?

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So now... you want to build your team based on the word of an analyst??

I'll tell you what. Tell Belkin to fire BK and Hire Chad Ford... Then you can watch us draft qwrtyuiop asdfghjkl who is a Russian PF who is 7'8 160. Who has a quick first step.

If you really want to know about Basketball, you don't rely on the praise of Chad Ford or any guy named Giovonni... because these guys get paid to talk up players to folks like you and GMs in hopes that you find them in anyway credible. These guys are on the payroll of agents like Lon Babby because these agents are smart enough to know that gullable fans will eat up BS like Chocolate especially when they are too lazy to watch the games for them selves.

Oh, BTW... Didn't the analyst peg Skita, Darko, Ferry, and Laettner as the future of the NBA?

OK, let me finishing going through your post to see what else I can laugh at!

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You cannot compare the scoring differential of the early 90s with that of today. Teams averaged well over 100 ppg game back then.

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OK, let me explain this to you. At no time did I compare ppg from 1990 to ppg of 2006. What I did was show the impact of a rookie player for his team from 1991 to 1992 and another one from 1992 to 1993. Did the game change so significantly over that 1 year period that what I showed you was irrelevant? If that's the case, then there's no need in us talking about effect of a rookie on defense huh? Game might make another drastic 1 year CHANGE!

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Good comparisons for Shelden have been made. A poor man's Oakley, Antonio Davis, Dale Davis etc. These are not defensive all-stars. These are adequate players but not guys that will turn around a defense.

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What makes these good comparisons, because you were gullable enough to believe them? Let me ask you this. What exactly did these three guys do in College or High School that would make them comparable to Shelden Williams? Dale Davis out of Clemson... Antonio Davis out of UTEP Oakley out of Virginia Union didn't play the level of competition that Shelden faced on any given weekend. Davis may have but he certainly was not on Shelden's level..

Williams earned the 2005 and 2006 National Defensive Player of the Year Awards while at Duke, becoming only the fifth player in history to earn the award two consecutive years. He is the third player in ACC history to have 1,500 points, 1,000 rebounds and 350 blocks (joining Tim Duncan and Ralph Sampson). His 1,217 rebounds and 1,859 career points rank him seventh in ACC history and sixteenth in Duke history, respectively.

National Association of Basketball Coaches National Defensive Player of the Year: 2005, 2006

Associated Press First Team All American: 2006

John R. Wooden First Team All American: 2006

Senior CLASS All-Senior All American Team: 2006

John R. Wooden National Player of the Year Finalist: 2006

You want to talk about the word of analyst... Chad Ford and the like... These are the people who voted Shelden defensive player of the year for the last two years...

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2005-06 NABC Board of Directors

Oliver Purnell, President (Clemson University)

Jim Boeheim, First Vice President (Syracuse University)

Orlando "Tubby" Smith, Second Vice President (University of Kentucky)/a>

Willis Wilson, Third Vice President (Rice University)

Dale Clayton, Fourth Vice President (Carson-Newman College)

Jim Burson, 2005-06 Past President (Muskingum College)

Pat Kennedy, 2004-05 Past President (Towson University)

Kelvin Sampson, 2003-04 Past President (University of Oklahoma)

Tom Izzo, Director (Michigan State University)

Dave Odom, Director (University of South Carolina)

Ernie Kent, Director (University of Oregon)

d*ck

Davey, Director (Santa Clara University)

Larry Gipson, Director (Northeastern State University)

Barry Collier, Director (University of Nebraska)

Page Moir, Director (Roanoke College)

Philip Martelli, Director (St. Joseph's University)

Ron Hunter, Director (IUPUI)

Jeff Jones, Director (American University)

Bill Self, Director (University of Kansas)

Paul Hewitt, Director (Georgia Tech)

Bo Ryan, Director (University of Wisconsin)

Jim Haney, NABC Executive Director

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Most of these guys faced Shelden, had to coach against Shelden, and after doing so decided that he was the best defensive force in college.

Notice, there are no footnotes about Antonio Davis or Dale Davis in college. Neither of them were coaches pick for Defensive player of the year. Neither of them was a Wooden Finalist. Neither one of them was the TEAM USA Men's Basketball Player of the Year.. Neither one of them holds distinctions that has only been held by Ralph Sampson and Tim Duncan. So how is it that somebody got you to believe that they were a "good comparison" to Shelden Williams?

I guess if somebody had come along and said that Shelden Williams compare favorably to Zach and Jan the wondertwins, you would have been all over that one too??

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The team's defense...Josh Smith is a good HELP defender. He gets beat constantly on defense. Why do you think the lane opens up so badly? Nobody gets intimidated by him. They go around him and dunk on Zaza. Just like they'll go around him and dunk on Williams or get fouled by Williams.

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So now, you want anybody to believe that Williams is equal to Zaza defensively? That's what you're suggesting...

I just have one question and we can call this. Will you be around during the season? When the season actually starts and our defense is better and our lane is closed to those who would like to do the layup drill for old time sake, will you and your 2 posts be around on Hawksquawk for me to remind you of the foolishness that you have said in this post?

[joannes3000]

As much as I love to argue with you, Diesel, this is why I highly respect you. When you get your facts straight you sure can put together a good post!

I gotta admit that when I checked on the draft hours after it was over I was kinda upset that we took Landlord. When I saw who was taken immediately after him I was more upset. When I saw that Portland then orchestrated a trade centered around Roy, I was officially pissed.

Then I calmed down and started thinking logically again. I give Williams enough credit for his past success to give him the benefit of the doubt. I feel that he will help contribute to one of our weaknesses - interior defense. If he is able to do that, I think he's worth the pick. I would've loved to have seen us take Brandon Roy but as much as I may feel like an informed individual, ESPN Insider is the closest I get to being in the know - that's doesn't quite qualify me to be an NBA GM.

[SportsGuy]

Sure I'll be around, but what's with the taunting about my number of posts. Just because I don't spend every waking hour reading and posting on Hawksquawk my opinion is meaningless? What a great guy you must be. Everyone bow down to the guy only known by the alias Diesel. Gimme a break. I used to post on the old AJC Hawks' board before you ever came around. So don't hold my post count on this board against me.

"At no time did I compare ppg from 1990 to ppg of 2006."

That's exactly what you're doing when you compare a player from that year to a player that will begin play this year. Can't you see that? What you did is compare the impacts of centers defensively in the league fifteen years ago. Show me the impacts of power forwards defensively in the last five years. Ben Wallace I'm guessing had an impact and Elton Brand. If Shelden does similar things I'll gladly eat my crow, but he's not at the level of Brand or Wallace. Surely you can see that.

"What I did was show the impact of a rookie player for his team from 1991 to 1992 and another one from 1992 to 1993. Did the game change so significantly over that 1 year period that what I showed you was irrelevant? If that's the case, then there's no need in us talking about effect of a rookie on defense huh? Game might make another drastic 1 year CHANGE!"

-What the hell are you talking about? Again you showed the impacts of rookie CENTERS fifteen years ago. And I've already told you they were taller with longer wingspans than Shelden. And it's different eras. Mutumbo reduced the points per game by 23.2 as you've already stated. Do you honestly think that if Mutumbo was a rookie coming to the Hawks this year he'd drop the Hawks ppg allowed to 69.8? That's crazy. If you want to talk percentage decrease that's fine, but don't give me ppg crap. Different eras make it impossible for any rookie coming into the league to drop ppg by 23.2 points for an entire team. Simply put, teams don't score that much per game anymore to have a decrease that large. That's why I'm saying you can't compare Mutumbo's numbers to anyone coming into the league these days. Understand?

And at no time did I ever mention Chad Ford. Stephen A. Smith, Jay Bilas, Greg Anthony, Scoop Jackson, Chris Broussard, the list goes on and on disgreed with the pick or disagreed with Shelden being taken that high based on the other needs of the Hawks. Don't put names in my mouth. I never said Chad Ford. I hate that guy. He's a pompous idiot. d*ck Vitale screamed last year we should've taken Paul. He was right. Analysts do know what they're talking about sometimes.

"So now, you want anybody to believe that Williams is equal to Zaza defensively? That's what you're suggesting..."

Again, you putting words in my mouth. I never said Williams was as bad as Zaza. You like to read into things to support your arguments don't you. All I'm suggesting is that Williams will be the poor sucker that gets blamed next season for the defensive defiencies of his teammates just like Zaza did last year. Is Zaza a good defender? Haha, no. Is Williams better? Yes. Significantly better in his jump to the NBA? No, because he'll still be just another rookie in the NBA and again he's not a center. You brush that off, but those 3-plus inches in height that differs between Shelden and Mutumbo, Mourning, and Okafor matters.

And how much do trophies in college impact a player's contributions in the pros? None. Haven't you seen all the washout/hasbeen Heisman trophy winners in the NFL. Or the good college players that did relatively nothing in the NBA? Bobby Hurley, Jason Williams, Sam Bowie, Marcus Fizer, Eddie Griffin, Alan Henderson, Juwan Howard

Since you don't seem to mind doing research, post the defensive players of the year award winners at the power forward position in the last 30 years so we can compare their college careers to their pro careers.

"2005-06 NABC Board of Directors

Oliver Purnell, President (Clemson University)

Jim Boeheim, First Vice President (Syracuse University)

Orlando "Tubby" Smith, Second Vice President (University of Kentucky)/a>

Willis Wilson, Third Vice President (Rice University)

Dale Clayton, Fourth Vice President (Carson-Newman College)

Jim Burson, 2005-06 Past President (Muskingum College)

Pat Kennedy, 2004-05 Past President (Towson University)

Kelvin Sampson, 2003-04 Past President (University of Oklahoma)

Tom Izzo, Director (Michigan State University)

Dave Odom, Director (University of South Carolina)

Ernie Kent, Director (University of Oregon)

d*ck Davey, Director (Santa Clara University)

Larry Gipson, Director (Northeastern State University)

Barry Collier, Director (University of Nebraska)

Page Moir, Director (Roanoke College)

Philip Martelli, Director (St. Joseph's University)

Ron Hunter, Director (IUPUI)

Jeff Jones, Director (American University)

Bill Self, Director (University of Kansas)

Paul Hewitt, Director (Georgia Tech)

Bo Ryan, Director (University of Wisconsin)

Jim Haney, NABC Executive Director"

You say Shelden played against most of these guys. I count five he played against more than once. And most of these schools suck for basketball competition. American? IUPUI?

Roanoke? St. Joe's (without Nelson)? Nebraska? Northeastern? Santa Clara? Who have they had besides Nash in the last 20 years? Towson? Muskingum? Carson-Newman? Rice? You gotta be out of your mind. These guys are good judges of basketball talent? And how many games do you think they have time to watch to be a fair judge of this? These are the same head coaches that have one of their assitant coaches vote in the Top 25 coaches poll because they don't have time to do it themselves. Collegiate awards are won on stats and reputation, not actual game play. There are really good players that get overlooked for awards because they don't play at Duke or Kentucky or Kansas or Indiana. Thus, they don't get media attention. It sucks. But Shelden is not as good as Sampson or Duncan when they came out of college. You find me someone of significance that agrees with your comparison to Duncan and Sampson and I'll never post on this board again.

My comparisons to Oakley and the Davis guys have to do with position and similar ability level. I liked the comparisons based on size as well (although that's being generous considering those guys are still taller than Williams) so I used them. So what?

You can laugh at my posts all you want, but I'm not as bad at this debate thing as you make me out to be. And didn't you ask to be debated in the first place? Why be an ass about it when you get what you asked for?

[Buzzard]

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My comparisons to Oakley and the Davis guys have to do with position and similar ability level. I liked the comparisons based on size as well (although that's being generous considering those guys are still taller than Williams) so I used them. So what?

You can laugh at my posts all you want, but I'm not as bad at this debate thing as you make me out to be. And didn't you ask to be debated in the first place? Why be an ass about it when you get what you asked for?

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You just need to understand who you are debating with. There is no middle ground with Diesel. A player he debates about either sucks or is going to the hall of fame. Your comparisons to Davis and Oakley are good. Not over optimistic and not down trodden either. That is not what Diesel wants. He wants someone to say Shelden is the next Russel or he is going to totally flop.

I like Shelden as a player, what you expect is pretty much what I see in him. I hated picking him at 5 and I hated passing on Roy and Foye as well.

My initial anger has subsided and my disappointment will lessen as well. But I just want the Hawks to win and sometimes that is just asking way to much. Patience, I keep hearing patience... I keep telling myself patience....Hopefully this lottery playing instead of playoff playing will happen real soon.

[Diesel]

One thing about Roy.

People talk about the deal we had with Shelden.. Roy had a deal with PTL. PTL was going to take him by any means. That's why they traded with Boston.. That's why they traded with Minny.

The other thing is that Roy wanted to go to PTL and no place else.

He snubbed workout opportunities with US and Charlotte. I get the feeling that he didn't want to be far from home. I also get the feeling he wanted to play for McMillian. It's kinda underhanded, but Arn Tellem twisted Minnesota's arm about Roy. I think he would have done the same to us.

I think we made the right decision.

Shelden helps us immensely.

When we get past the thought of Marvin/Smoove as our forward package because neither is a PF, I think we will see this as being the best move for our team.

Sure, there were sexier picks... BUT the importance of this pick can't be ignored. We have NO DRAFT next year to fix our biggest problem. It's harder to get a FA Big than it is to get a FA PG, Also, there are better quality PGs available in trade and FAcy than Bigs. Nobody will just trade us a good big and no FA big is coming here that we won't have to pay through the nose to get. Consider Damp's 70 million...

Now.. we don't have to be burdened with the idea of paying Cato 20 million dollars because we don't have a big.

[Diesel]

Many points to make, but I just want to start with the most obvious.. point of disagreement.

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"So now, you want anybody to believe that Williams is equal to Zaza defensively? That's what you're suggesting..."

Again, you putting words in my mouth. I never said Williams was as bad as Zaza. You like to read into things to support your arguments don't you. All I'm suggesting is that Williams will be the poor sucker that gets blamed next season for the defensive defiencies of his teammates just like Zaza did last year.

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When you said that players will go around Shelden the same way they went around Zaza... It's cut and dry, plain and simple that you are suggesting that Shelden's defense is going to be as weak as Zaza's. NO, I do not have a direct quote of you saying that verbatim. But let's not play word games and let's not try to change what you have said after the fact. You have suggested that Williams defense will be as weak as Zaza's and that's just plain funny. I would get my laugh on, but I want you to see this seriously. Shelden will be better than Zaza defensively. Shelden will be better than Al defensively. Shelden will play defense against PFs better than Smoove.

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Is Zaza a good defender? Haha, no. Is Williams better? Yes. Significantly better in his jump to the NBA? No, because he'll still be just another rookie in the NBA and again he's not a center. You brush that off, but those 3-plus inches in height that differs between Shelden and Mutumbo, Mourning, and Okafor matters.

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I've never known an inch of turso or forehead being of big help to a player playing defense. Never. Defense is more about strength and technique. I think that there might be guys who just beat Shelden because these same guys just beat everybody they play... That's something that no person can help. However, I think Shelden will vastly improve our defense. Now, if that inch means so much, then maybe BK out to go out and get Shelden those extra high shoes to make up the difference. I'm sure if he goes to Nike, they can specially make something that will give him an inch or 2. But will tht help his defense? I doubt it. His defense will be seen for exactly what it is when he uses his strength and technique to hold his defensive position.

[Diesel]

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You say Shelden played against most of these guys. I count five he played against more than once. And most of these schools suck for basketball competition. American? IUPUI?

Roanoke? St. Joe's (without Nelson)? Nebraska? Northeastern? Santa Clara? Who have they had besides Nash in the last 20 years? Towson? Muskingum? Carson-Newman? Rice? You gotta be out of your mind. These guys are good judges of basketball talent? And how many games do you think they have time to watch to be a fair judge of this? These are the same head coaches that have one of their assitant coaches vote in the Top 25 coaches poll because they don't have time to do it themselves. Collegiate awards are won on stats and reputation, not actual game play.

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So you actually believe that he was not worthy of the award that he recieved? Actually, sportsguy you're saying that you don't believe in colliegiate awards at all because "They are based on Stats and reputation". However, let me ask you something... Where do you think the Stats and reputation come from??

You think if we just give a guy a nickname, that these dumbass coaches will vote for him just becuase he has a cool sounding nickname??

I think you ought to give them a little more credit than that.

[thesheedera]

As a staunch dook hater and a critic of taking Shelden at 5 when that pick could have brought more assets and he could have been picked later, its a bit surprising to me how satisfied I feel with our draft. I don't love the move we made, but I think I like it...alot???

In my opinion Shelden wasn't the best defensive player in college, or the ACC the last two seasons, but I have no doubt that he is immediately our best post defender as soon as he walks on the court. He will help, he's dependable, he doesn't need to develop, he will make our other players better every single time he plays.

We didn't take a point guard, we didn't get a center. That upsets me, but this wasn't our last chance to do either. We added two defensive minded post players, one ready now, one with "potential". Both add things we didn't have before, both will challenge other post players, both know what they were drafted for, and they give us more flexibility in obtaining the asset we need the most, a point guard.

I guess I feel like I know what Shelden "isn't" after watching him closely for his college career, and the fact that it doesn't worry me that much makes me feel pretty darn satisfied. He's a rock, he's not Kevin Garnett, but we need some rocks in a bad way.

I'm on board without reservation, and I look forward to, hopefully, a couple more wise moves before the season starts in an effort to continue to balance out this team.

[drzachary]

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As a staunch dook hater and a critic of taking Shelden at 5 when that pick could have brought more assets and he could have been picked later, its a bit surprising to me how satisfied I feel with our draft. I don't love the move we made, but I think I like it...alot???

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Same here... and I even question what kind of assets we could have really got. It's academic at this point.

[Johnnybravo4]

Good posts diesel. I think it is hilarious that people bitched and moaned all season about wanting a "true" point guard...and then who are the guards that they wanted? Foye who is not a point guard and Roy who could be a point guard and was regarded as a second round pick talent last year.

It is a joke, for once I agreed with BK. BK said that our biggest need was interior defense. None of these point guards would address interior defense.

The truth is is that if you have talent you can survive with servicable pgs. I mean Miami won with White Chocolate. Dallas got there with Jason Terry. The same JT that when he was on the Hawks, all the "analysts" said that we needed a point guard.

[joannes3000]

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One thing about Roy.

People talk about the deal we had with Shelden.. Roy had a deal with PTL. PTL was going to take him by any means. That's why they traded with Boston.. That's why they traded with Minny.

The other thing is that Roy wanted to go to PTL and no place else.

He snubbed workout opportunities with US and Charlotte. I get the feeling that he didn't want to be far from home. I also get the feeling he wanted to play for McMillian. It's kinda underhanded, but Arn Tellem twisted Minnesota's arm about Roy. I think he would have done the same to us.

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No, no, I agree. All I was saying was that if PTL was determined to get Roy, why not take him and force PTL to deal with us instead? If anything we could've gotten Williams plus something in return. If they were that determined, why not squeeze Blake or Jack out of them, you know?

[DrReality]

Shelden is like drafting a very good offensive lineman to protect Vick. He plays a very similar role and helps 'protect' or make better the rest of the team.

[Diesel]

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I can't wait... I really can't wait to see our defensive interior better, Shelden leading the way to ROY or maybe second behind Morrison and All of you crybabies eating crow.

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[Diesel]

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Sure I'll be around, but what's with the taunting about my number of posts.

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The song was called: "promises, promises we don't keep" or something like that.

[exodus]

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I hate the situation where are in right now. We have a strong need for a rebounder/defender and there are really none coming out. I know there's Shelden Williams and Josh Boone but both of these guys seem like they have real problems on this level. Neither will bring any offense.

Williams will probably be a height aided flop.

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Shelden

I think today was typical. A 6'9 C vs. a bigger stronger body and Williams for Duke folded like a chair . What did he get 3 rebounds? Eric Williams had his way. I don't think anybody from Duke is worthy of a lottery pick.

I would prefer Smith's 6'7" and knowinig how to play in the post as a second round pick than to waste a pick on Williams in the first round.

Shelden I have never seen a landlord get evicted out of his own place the way that Ewilliams kicked him out.

[Diesel]

I hate duke. In the middle of NCAAs don't expect to hear me say anything nice about a duke player. However, when you're talking about what's best for the Hawks to draft at the end of the NCAA season, I have to put my anti-duke feelings aside and be honest. Shelden was the best post player in the draft.

I've said this before but somehow, it doesn't register with you??

Is it that you're just stuck in the past?

The Al era continues.

[Diesel]

You were for Shelden...

Then once the combine was over, you were making arguments about STANDING REACH Shall I go back into the Al era and get those for you...

Being that you are pro Shelden again, That would mean that you've done more flopping than John Kerry!

First you were for Shelden, then you were against Shelden, now you're for Shelden again??