For all of those who wanted Paul instead of Marvin

[BornandDieHawks]

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I can't beleive we've still got people so wrapped up in this Paul over Williams draft. There is one statement that can sum up why that draft was not some horrible GMing by Billy that everyone makes it seem: EVERYONE AND THEIR MAMA HAD MARVIN OVER PAUL AND HE'S ONLY PLAYED ONE GAME THIS YEAR. It wasn't just BK, you could have your pick of any GM in the freakin NBA and almost all of them would have done the same. So why should he be bashed for something the rest would have done? You gonna fire him and hire someone who would have done the same damn thing? The argument based on STRICTLY HINDSIGHT is null and void because the same people arguing how bad it was wanted Marvin too (yes i know there are some of you exceptions out there).

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Exactly...You would think BK well out on his own and picked Marvin from Central Middle Tennesse State or something. He was considered the best all around talent in the draft and all the so-call draft experts had hime going 1 or 2.

[hawkman]

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I can't beleive we've still got people so wrapped up in this Paul over Williams draft. There is one statement that can sum up why that draft was not some horrible GMing by Billy that everyone makes it seem: EVERYONE AND THEIR MAMA HAD MARVIN OVER PAUL AND HE'S ONLY PLAYED ONE GAME THIS YEAR. It wasn't just BK, you could have your pick of any GM in the freakin NBA and almost all of them would have done the same. So why should he be bashed for something the rest would have done? You gonna fire him and hire someone who would have done the same damn thing? The argument based on STRICTLY HINDSIGHT is null and void because the same people arguing how bad it was wanted Marvin too (yes i know there are some of you exceptions out there).

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Exactly...You would think BK well out on his own and picked Marvin from Central Middle Tennesse State or something. He was considered the best all around talent in the draft and all the so-call draft experts had hime going 1 or 2.

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Yeah, that's cool and all but we really needed a Point Guard. We had enough Small Forwards at the time. Dumb pick period. This will probably be argued as long as there's anyone who doesn't believe that this was a bad pick. Between the two forums I frequent, there seems to be a "Glad we didn't get Paul" thread posted from time to time. I usually just ignore them, but I can't anymore. The thought that someone can really believe that we made the right choice looking back really irritates me. It's even more irritating to see the irrelavent stats that are posted to support such a bullcrap argument. Sorry for the rant

[BornandDieHawks]

We did need a PG but no one knew how C Paul or D Williams would play in the NBA. (It's all a risk) So do you just pass up on the players who was picked with the most talent and potential? What if Lebron, Melo and D Wade were in this draft? Would your opinon be the same and say by-passed them because we need a PG? I am not saying MW is in the same class as them, but at the time he was projected by many as the number 1 overall pick. I am a fan of CP, but to continue with these "what if" treads and not putting some support behind MW is crazy.

[hawkman]

To be honest, Marvin doesn't need our support, at least not as far as this theoretical argument is concerned. He will be just fine. Afterall, he will always be a #2 draft pick. Heck, even Darko is still highly regarded and he has shown very little so far. Besides, this is not about dissing Marv as much as it is about questioning the decisions of the GM and organization. I see nothing wrong with that. BTW, Lebron and Wade were can't miss prospects. I watched Wade in college and he was every bit as exciting as he is now. The same applies to Lebron out of high school. I honestly can't say that Marvin was dominating on the college level. I hope Marvin does well now that he's here, but that still doesn't mean that drafting him wasn't a mistake. It's going to take a lot more than what I've seen so far to change my mind about that.

[exodus]

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So do you just pass up on the players who was picked with the most talent and potential? What if Lebron, Melo and D Wade were in this draft?

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Melo and Wade weren't drafted on potential. They were drafted on prodution. Melo was dominant on a title team and Wade was very strong in the tourney as well.

Lebron would be a first pick almost any year and shouldn't be in this discussion.

[gsuteke]

hopefully it will be short-lived.

he has a good attitude. from listening to Marvin talk I think he'll put in the work to get back from this hand injury.

[exodus]

The only way it will be short lived is if Marvin becomes better than those two and he has a looooonnng way to go to get to that level.

Right now i would just settle for him not jumping into people every time he drives the lane ala Zaza.

[gsuteke]

he always has looked kind of clumsy to me.

[Guest Walter]

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Exactly...You would think BK well out on his own and picked Marvin from Central Middle Tennesse State or something. He was considered the best all around talent in the draft and all the so-call draft experts had hime going 1 or 2.

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Is there ANY part of that people here do not understand! He's the GM, the buck doesn't stop at Jay Bilas and the "consensus", "our scouts", or the Michael Jordan rule. It stops at BK. Hold him accountable. He not only selected the less talented player (with seemingly TWO Pgs more talented...of course well see by next year for sure might be 3, might be 1, might be 0) but he selected him at a position we had 4 other young players at while having no Pgs in a franchise Pg draft. Indefensible and unforgivable! But the BK apologists continue.

As far as "BK (not) going out on his own". What do you think the SW pick was?!? He nøt only "went out on his own" but he failed to try out the top prospects and promised SW a month before the draft. There was no "consensus" here! Can't blame "scouting" when you don't try out the top talent. In fact, he wasn't even a "consensus" top 10 pick! I'm sure I'm going to here how SW was a "Woody pick" and how ownership wanted to win now (so BK didn't have control over the selection of SW). Blah-f-ing-blah! Nonsense! Hold this man accountable!

Quit making excuses for BK out of what every other GM in the league has to deal with. You think Colangelo didn't have to wade through the fog of the consensus? Every GM has to deal with the "consensus", his team's "scouting", ownership (eccentric, power-hungry, cheap, or dysfunctional), whether the MJ rule applies and to what extent, whether other "rules" apply (such as BPA in the 2nd rd), their coach's wants. When did the GM job description become a grocery-list of excuses for Billy Knight?!?

Just because Joe-fan get caught up in the MW hype (and those of us who watched him 10+ games didn't) because Vescey says too doesn't excuse a GM if he should. In fact, that might be the worst indictment against a GM I've ever heard. If a GM bases his decision on the chorus of fellow opposing team's representatives who would like nothing better than to start an avalanche of truthiness about a prospect, a new-rep that would like nothing better than the "scoop" and quoting anonymous "scouts", and the once removed rehash reporter who just repeats what he read,...that GM should be fired immediately.

BK got it WRONG! What's so hard about that to swallow that people use his job description as an excuse letter from his parents. He's a big boy in a big boy job. Treat him like one people!

W

[Guest Walter]

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he always has looked kind of clumsy to me.

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That's how I saw him. Some people ironically insist this awkwardness characteristic will allow him to draw more fouls. Turn that frown upside down I guess.

W

[AHF]

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Exactly...You would think BK well out on his own and picked Marvin from Central Middle Tennesse State or something. He was considered the best all around talent in the draft and all the so-call draft experts had hime going 1 or 2.

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Is there ANY part of that people here do not understand! He's the GM, the buck doesn't stop at Jay Bilas and the "consensus", "our scouts", or the Michael Jordan rule. It stops at BK. Hold him accountable.

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I agree with this. BK has to be accountable for his total track record as GM in Atlanta - including the Marvin pick.

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He not only selected the less talented player (with seemingly TWO Pgs more talented...of course well see by next year for sure might be 3, might be 1, might be 0) but he selected him at a position we had 4 other young players at while having no Pgs in a franchise Pg draft. Indefensible and unforgivable! But the BK apologists continue.

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This is a bit of 20/20 hindsight. Seemingly, Marvin was more talented than anyone else in the draft. You may disagree but there is a lot of evidence to support that notion and very little to contradict it (from the published opinions of GMs & scouts; to the media pundits; to Roy Williams himself comparing Marvin's potential to that of lottery picks like Raymond Felton and Sean May; to the comments of Sean May; etc.)

BK did not get the most out of this pick. That is the only conclusion you can reach based on what we know today. However, I think it was defensible at the time it was made. Defensible and right are two very different standards.

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As far as "BK (not) going out on his own". What do you think the SW pick was?!? He nøt only "went out on his own" but he failed to try out the top prospects and promised SW a month before the draft. There was no "consensus" here! Can't blame "scouting" when you don't try out the top talent. In fact, he wasn't even a "consensus" top 10 pick! I'm sure I'm going to here how SW was a "Woody pick" and how ownership wanted to win now (so BK didn't have control over the selection of SW). Blah-f-ing-blah! Nonsense! Hold this man accountable!

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I also fault BK for the methodology he used in arriving at the Shelden pick. You have to work out the top players when you have a top pick, IMO. Both because you will be better informed and because you want to build a relationship with the top players for when they are FAs down the line.

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Quit making excuses for BK out of what every other GM in the league has to deal with. You think Colangelo didn't have to wade through the fog of the consensus? Every GM has to deal with the "consensus", his team's "scouting", ownership (eccentric, power-hungry, cheap, or dysfunctional), whether the MJ rule applies and to what extent, whether other "rules" apply (such as BPA in the 2nd rd), their coach's wants.

When did the GM job description become a grocery-list of excuses for Billy Knight?!?

Just because Joe-fan get caught up in the MW hype (and those of us who watched him 10+ games didn't) because Vescey says too doesn't excuse a GM if he should. In fact, that might be the worst indictment against a GM I've ever heard. If a GM bases his decision on the chorus of fellow opposing team's representatives who would like nothing better than to start an avalanche of truthiness about a prospect, a new-rep that would like nothing better than the "scoop" and quoting anonymous "scouts", and the once removed rehash reporter who just repeats what he read,...that GM should be fired immediately.

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I agree with the position argue here but I am not sure why you think it applies to BK. If BK made his drafting decision based on the scouts of other teams or (god forbid) Vescey then he should be fired on the spot. However, I have not seen any indication that this is the case.

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BK got it WRONG! What's so hard about that to swallow that people use his job description as an excuse letter from his parents. He's a big boy in a big boy job. Treat him like one people!

W

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Other than KB is there anyone still arguing this? The most aggressive defense of BK I see on the Hawksquawk anymore is that we need to give Marvin more time before concluding that he was the wrong pick. I don't think anyone is arguing that what we have seen so far suggests that BK was right to take Marvin over Paul or Deron. This is the part of the Paul/Deron "debate" that irritates me. Everyone acknowledges that the evidence points to those two PGs as being better picks - just as the evidence suggests that Jameer Nelson was a better pick than Sebastian Telfair or that JR Smith was a better pick than Kirk Snyder.

The only issue here is with BK's decision-making process re: Shelden and his judgment re: any of his picks. However, reiterating over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over...ad nauseam that BK should have taken Paul or Deron doesn't really move the ball much on this discussion, IMO. It has been beaten to death.

[terrynoonan]

The pick would be fine if we had a coach. Why pick Marvin, and have a coach who doesn't know how use him?

[BornandDieHawks]

Is there ANY part of that people here do not understand! He's the GM, the buck doesn't stop at Jay Bilas and the "consensus", "our scouts", or the Michael Jordan rule. It stops at BK. Hold him accountable. He not only selected the less talented player (with seemingly TWO Pgs more talented...of course well see by next year for sure might be 3, might be 1, might be 0) but he selected him at a position we had 4 other young players at while having no Pgs in a franchise Pg draft. Indefensible and unforgivable! But the BK apologists continue.

As far as "BK (not) going out on his own". What do you think the SW pick was?!? He nøt only "went out on his own" but he failed to try out the top prospects and promised SW a month before the draft. There was no "consensus" here! Can't blame "scouting" when you don't try out the top talent. In fact, he wasn't even a "consensus" top 10 pick! I'm sure I'm going to here how SW was a "Woody pick" and how ownership wanted to win now (so BK didn't have control over the selection of SW). Blah-f-ing-blah! Nonsense! Hold this man accountable!

Quit making excuses for BK out of what every other GM in the league has to deal with. You think Colangelo didn't have to wade through the fog of the consensus? Every GM has to deal with the "consensus", his team's "scouting", ownership (eccentric, power-hungry, cheap, or dysfunctional), whether the MJ rule applies and to what extent, whether other "rules" apply (such as BPA in the 2nd rd), their coach's wants. When did the GM job description become a grocery-list of excuses for Billy Knight?!?

Just because Joe-fan get caught up in the MW hype (and those of us who watched him 10+ games didn't) because Vescey says too doesn't excuse a GM if he should. In fact, that might be the worst indictment against a GM I've ever heard. If a GM bases his decision on the chorus of fellow opposing team's representatives who would like nothing better than to start an avalanche of truthiness about a prospect, a new-rep that would like nothing better than the "scoop" and quoting anonymous "scouts", and the once removed rehash reporter who just repeats what he read,...that GM should be fired immediately.

BK got it WRONG! What's so hard about that to swallow that people use his job description as an excuse letter from his parents. He's a big boy in a big boy job. Treat him like one people!

W

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I am sure BK did not sit up and make this nor any other pick from watching SportsCenter. You, me, or anyone else on this board do not have a clue of what went on during their pre-camp workouts with the Hawks.

It's easy to sit back after the season starts and see who's doing what and start the blame game.

I live in North Carolina and during the Tarheels (who I hate by the way) national championship season, Roy Williams always would say MW was the most talented person on the team. The other players would say he was the most talented on the team. Everyone who gave MW high marks seen alot more of him in person and in tapes to make a more educated guess on what he might be as a pro than you or I. If MW had went first we would have ended up with Bogut anyway..

The bottom line is we got MW... period. We went through hundreds of treads last year about who we should have drafted and nothing has changed. CP is still under contract with another team. Just let it go....

[AtLaS]

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You, me, or anyone else on this board do not have a clue of what went on during their pre-camp workouts with the Hawks.

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It was widely reported that Marvin came in out of shape and was an inch shorter than reported. He did NOT have a great workout here. Paul, on the other hand, thought he was going to the Hawks because of how well his workout went and how well he got along with everyone. He even quoted that this was his best workout, AND he wanted to come here.

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The bottom line is we got MW... period. We went through hundreds of treads last year about who we should have drafted and nothing has changed. CP is still under contract with another team. Just let it go....

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I almost think that BK drafted Marvin with the intention to trade him to Charlotte or NO, thinking they would crack and give up a huge package for him, but they didn't. How else do you explain the pick?.. considering how his workout went? and how he was virtually unproven at ANY level in his career, HS or College?

It would have made sense for one of those teams to take a chance on Marvin because they were both horrible teams, and had NO talent at the SF position, so it's worth the risk. But in our situation, we already had THREE FIRST ROUND SF'S ON THE ROSTER! Marvin made it 4! Plus we had Harrington, which gave us FIVE SF'S and still NO PG! Just a horrible decision..

He either drafted Marvin because of that or out of spite since everyone was saying how much we needed a PG, and there was NO WAY he'd draft another SF. So he did it anyway, we know how egotistical BK is..

[Guest Walter]

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He not only selected the less talented player (with seemingly TWO Pgs more talented...of course well see by next year for sure might be 3, might be 1, might be 0) but he selected him at a position we had 4 other young players at while having no Pgs in a franchise Pg draft. Indefensible and unforgivable! But the BK apologists continue.

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This is a bit of 20/20 hindsight. Seemingly, Marvin was more talented than anyone else in the draft. You may disagree but there is a lot of evidence to support that notion and very little to contradict it (from the published opinions of GMs & scouts; to the media pundits; to Roy Williams himself comparing Marvin's potential to that of lottery picks like Raymond Felton and Sean May; to the comments of Sean May; etc.)

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"Seemingly"?!? Not to most of us who watched more of MW and UNC. I believe 100% that if you watched enough UNC games that year you would not have been very impressed with MW. Impressed? Yes. Very impressed? No.

I watched him play at least 15 times and can tell you that he wasn't "more talented" than Paul or Deron. He MAY have "seemed" to have more "potential" but it wasn't "freakish", nor did it suggest he would LIKELY be more talented than Paul or Deron or that his impact would be greater than that of one of the franchise Pgs regardless of team needs. Of course, we had serious Pg team needs.

Other (smart) GMs mislead intentionally, I don't care what Roy Williams has to say about his own players BUT if his "potential" was only as good as Felton's then that is a knock on MW. We KNOW his talent wasn't as good, but if his potential was only comperable then why on earth would we ever consider him with 4 prospect Sfs on the roster.

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BK did not get the most out of this pick. That is the only conclusion you can reach based on what we know today. However, I think it was defensible at the time it was made. Defensible and right are two very different standards.

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I don't believe it to be defensible. If you conceed that MW did not justify the MJ rule (and few players do, none of them with MW's meager credentials) then you had to consider team needs, the difficulty of filling and importance of the Pg position, etc. If you consider team needs AT ALL you cannot defend selecting MW.

MW needed to be slam-dunk, head and shoulders better than the franchise Pgs. A franchise Pg and JS at the 3 makes us far better than MW and JS at the 3 unless MW was a slam-dunk better. He's not remotely as good so there's no slam dunk coming.

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I also fault BK for the methodology he used in arriving at the Shelden pick. You have to work out the top players when you have a top pick, IMO. Both because you will be better informed and because you want to build a relationship with the top players for when they are FAs down the line.

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Isn't this covered in GMing for dumbies? Just a weak move by BK.

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I agree with the position argue here but I am not sure why you think it applies to BK. If BK made his drafting decision based on the scouts of other teams or (god forbid) Vescey then he should be fired on the spot. However, I have not seen any indication that this is the case.

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Because, these are two of the excuses made for BK. I don't believe BK's ego would let anyone else make these decisions, but don't bring them up as excuses for BK's mistakes when doing so would call into question his credibility even more.

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Other than KB is there anyone still arguing this?

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AHF, you just posted about how our scouts got it wrong (also). Truth is our scouts may have gotten it right and been overturned, we don't know, but regardless, it's comments like this meant to avert crticism from BK for his decision.

[Sothron]

I just wonder how many people actually watched Marvin, Paul and Deron in college? Seriously? I watched almost all of UoI's games that year (like every year) because my wife is an alumnus of University of Illinois and a huge sports fan. I knew Deron was the truh. Paul I saw a good bit of playing against GT and watching a good bit of ACC basketball. I saw Marvin in the same way.

It was pretty obvious to me that for our team with a plethora of 6'9" forwards or swingmen that we desperately needed a big man who can score in the low post and be a defensive force in the middle and a true franchise point guard. We couldn't get the big man but both Deron and Paul were top notch franchise point guards ready to be plucked.

What I saw from Marvin was a raw kid with some good fundamentals for his age and a great pick for about 25 other teams. Not us. Nothing I've seen since then in the real NBA has changed my opinion that we should have nabbed Deron or Paul.

[SmooveTheFuture]

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I just wonder how many people actually watched Marvin, Paul and Deron in college? Seriously? I watched almost all of UoI's games that year (like every year) because my wife is an alumnus of University of Illinois and a huge sports fan. I knew Deron was the truh. Paul I saw a good bit of playing against GT and watching a good bit of ACC basketball. I saw Marvin in the same way.

It was pretty obvious to me that for our team with a plethora of 6'9" forwards or swingmen that we desperately needed a big man who can score in the low post and be a defensive force in the middle and a true franchise point guard. We couldn't get the big man but both Deron and Paul were top notch franchise point guards ready to be plucked.

What I saw from Marvin was a raw kid with some good fundamentals for his age and a great pick for about 25 other teams. Not us. Nothing I've seen since then in the real NBA has changed my opinion that we should have nabbed Deron or Paul.

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Well said I think Marvin is far from anything big yet hes still pretty raw and people are expecting him to be the 2nd go to man for this franchise I find that hard to beleve. The fact that we passed on 2 of the top 5 PGs in the NBA right now will haunt this franchise for a long time.

[AHF]

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I just wonder how many people actually watched Marvin, Paul and Deron in college? Seriously? I watched almost all of UoI's games that year (like every year) because my wife is an alumnus of University of Illinois and a huge sports fan. I knew Deron was the truh. Paul I saw a good bit of playing against GT and watching a good bit of ACC basketball. I saw Marvin in the same way.

It was pretty obvious to me that for our team with a plethora of 6'9" forwards or swingmen that we desperately needed a big man who can score in the low post and be a defensive force in the middle and a true franchise point guard. We couldn't get the big man but both Deron and Paul were top notch franchise point guards ready to be plucked.

What I saw from Marvin was a raw kid with some good fundamentals for his age and a great pick for about 25 other teams. Not us. Nothing I've seen since then in the real NBA has changed my opinion that we should have nabbed Deron or Paul.

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Scouts and GMs did. Unlike fans like us, they have over $10,000,000 riding on making the right pick.

[AHF]

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He not only selected the less talented player (with seemingly TWO Pgs more talented...of course well see by next year for sure might be 3, might be 1, might be 0) but he selected him at a position we had 4 other young players at while having no Pgs in a franchise Pg draft. Indefensible and unforgivable! But the BK apologists continue.

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This is a bit of 20/20 hindsight. Seemingly, Marvin was more talented than anyone else in the draft. You may disagree but there is a lot of evidence to support that notion and very little to contradict it (from the published opinions of GMs & scouts; to the media pundits; to Roy Williams himself comparing Marvin's potential to that of lottery picks like Raymond Felton and Sean May; to the comments of Sean May; etc.)

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"Seemingly"?!? Not to most of us who watched more of MW and UNC. I believe 100% that if you watched enough UNC games that year you would not have been very impressed with MW. Impressed? Yes. Very impressed? No.

I watched him play at least 15 times and can tell you that he wasn't "more talented" than Paul or Deron. He MAY have "seemed" to have more "potential" but it wasn't "freakish", nor did it suggest he would LIKELY be more talented than Paul or Deron or that his impact would be greater than that of one of the franchise Pgs regardless of team needs. Of course, we had serious Pg team needs.

Other (smart) GMs mislead intentionally, I don't care what Roy Williams has to say about his own players BUT if his "potential" was only as good as Felton's then that is a knock on MW. We KNOW his talent wasn't as good, but if his potential was only comperable then why on earth would we ever consider him with 4 prospect Sfs on the roster.

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Obviously, you didn't even bother to read the comparisons I cited. Roy Williams and Sean May both went on about Marvin being clearly the most talented player on a talented UNC team. Please bother to read the information before raising a strawman like this.

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BK did not get the most out of this pick. That is the only conclusion you can reach based on what we know today. However, I think it was defensible at the time it was made. Defensible and right are two very different standards.

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I don't believe it to be defensible. If you conceed that MW did not justify the MJ rule (and few players do, none of them with MW's meager credentials) then you had to consider team needs, the difficulty of filling and importance of the Pg position, etc. If you consider team needs AT ALL you cannot defend selecting MW.

MW needed to be slam-dunk, head and shoulders better than the franchise Pgs. A franchise Pg and JS at the 3 makes us far better than MW and JS at the 3 unless MW was a slam-dunk better. He's not remotely as good so there's no slam dunk coming.

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No one on our team had put together more than half a good season when we made the pick. You can have different views on how to build a franchise and it is absolutely defensible to say that a team like Atlanta went for the guy who was most likely to be a star. It is also subject to criticism - like you make over and over and over and over again. However, that doesn't make it indefensible.

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I agree with the position argue here but I am not sure why you think it applies to BK. If BK made his drafting decision based on the scouts of other teams or (god forbid) Vescey then he should be fired on the spot. However, I have not seen any indication that this is the case.

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Because, these are two of the excuses made for BK. I don't believe BK's ego would let anyone else make these decisions, but don't bring them up as excuses for BK's mistakes when doing so would call into question his credibility even more.

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Please stop with this strawman. Find me one post where some says "I excuse BK's selection of Marvin because he didn't independently scout Marvin and relied on the opinions of opposing scouts or the press and I think that was a great idea."

The reason it is brought up is because there was a consensus that Marvin and Bogut were the top two prospects in the draft and the revisionist history that tries to make it look like Marvin was a reach near the top is disingenuous.

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Other than KB is there anyone still arguing this?

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AHF, you just posted about how our scouts got it wrong (also). Truth is our scouts may have gotten it right and been overturned, we don't know, but regardless, it's comments like this meant to avert crticism from BK for his decision.

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No it isn't. Every GM relies on scouts. It is BK's responsibility to make the right call. Stating the most likely scenario is not making excuses.

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The only issue here is with BK's decision-making process re: Shelden and his judgment re: any of his picks. However, reiterating over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over...ad nauseam that BK should have taken Paul or Deron doesn't really move the ball much on this discussion, IMO. It has been beaten to death.

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[/indent]

I believe the only issue here is whether or not BK should be trusted with another draft. It's too late in the rebuilding game for any high selections given we traded our pick, but two years consecutively he's gotten the draft terribly wrong and is ideologically all over the board doing so, the latest example making a grade-school GMing error. It's not a dead issue until BK isn't making the decisions or he has made a majority of major draft decisions without mistake. Until either occur his draft mistakes are at issue because guess who may be drafting for us again. With his ego I don't see him learning from his mistakes.

W

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Dear god, we know. I know you are responding to someone else's thread and kudos for that restraint but this has been discussed to death.

At least do a comparison of all his drafts to the collective drafts of competent GMs instead of beating the same drum over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.

[Yeti]

I disagree with a lot of this talk. Given our situation and track record, isn't it just as likely that Paul or Deron would be sitting on our bench just like Ivey? Why do we think our coaches would have been more successful with them than they have been with any other player? I have zero confidence in our coaches to get the most out of our players. We brought in JJ because he didn't need development and he's the only one playing like a professional.

Of course if that's true, it's BK's fault too. He hires the coach.