Who is your GM: Babcock or BK...

[Diesel]

You want to give Babcock credit for winning, but you don't see how he screwed us over on every turn.

You know why that Deke, Smitty, Mookie team was not more successful??

Becuase Babcock tied up all the capspace in Bums like Ken Norman, Blair Rasmussen, Sasha, and guys who just didn't play but had these longterm deals that stretched from the 90s to 2000.

We needed a good Sf or PF and we had to settle for guys like Corbin and Long because we couldn't afford anybody who wanted more than the vet minimum??

Did you forget those days? Or did you ever know them?

Or How about this.

In our Most competitive Playoffs, I watched Laettner go toe to toe with Rik Smits, then Toe to toe with Shaq... For his troubles, Laettner doesn't get resigned by the Hawks instead we opted to give Hendu a long term deal that stretched deep into the future.

How about for 1 qtr, Chris Crawford hit 4 3 pointers on the Knicks in the playoffs, his reward was a 7 year deal... Damn, are we still paying him?

And you'd think that the answer is simple.. just go out and draft somebody...

Did you say draft?

Let see:

Big Balla Ed Gray.

Priest Latterdale.

My personal favorite "the next Jordan" Roy Marble.

Conzo Martin.

Donnie Boyce.

Plastic Man Augmon.

Hendu

Dion Glover

Cal Bowdler!

Then you have those picks he gave away in trade:

Philly, LAC, Milwaukee twice (Big Dog, Ken Norman)...

Come on man...

I'll give Babcock credit for one thing...

Getting Deke!

[gutz]

I'm not even talking to you

[Sothron]

The more you post the more I just shake my head at work. Do you really think the Hawks only made the playoffs two years in the 90's? Wow. I'll just leave it at that.

[gutz]

That Henderson longterm bloated contract was the best signing ever by Babcock! LOL @ SOthron who thinks Babcock never made one bad signing. hahahahah good job!

[gutz]

Okay they made it 5 yrs in the 90's total. Point is it doesn't matter when you lose in the 1st round or 2nd round every year does it?

[gsuteke]

I wasn't able to follow the Hawks as closely as you seem to have in the 90s.

Both you and Sothron make valid points. I hate to break it to you guys but I don't think either of you are wrong.

losing has an amazing negative effect on a pro sports team's message board.

[Sothron]

I have been a fan of the Hawks since my dad took me to see "Fast" Eddie Robinson. Look at my sig for further details. I've followed this team longer than most people on this site have even been alive.

Ty Corbin and Grant Long were two of the best hard working players on those teams. If you are going to attack Babs starting with those two isn't going to get it done. You ranted about "heartless" Manning before (note I don't disagree, one of the reasons I hated Manning) but you attack the two guys with the most heart on our team? Priceless.

Laettner wanted a king's ransom to return to Atlanta. We wanted to resign him and resign Hendu who if you might recall had totally OUTPLAYED Laettner that year and Hendu did deserve a new deal. Sadly for us we found what "contract year play" meant the hard way with Hendu as he later admitted to Jason Walker privately that Hendu had NO HEART for the game and was only still playing for $$$.

Anyways. Babs tried to bring him back and Laettner refused. He signed with Detroit and tore his ACL and was never the same. Go compare his numbers in Atlanta and after it and its not even close.

I won't defend every Babs decision, I already stipulated that he was a horrible drafter. As for the deals you mentioned you might want to mention just how much Crawdaddy's was worth. It was chump change compared to some of the truly horrible contracts players get for having similiar playoff performances. We never knew what Crawdaddy could have done because of his injuries.

[Diesel]

Did you mean Fast "Eddie Johnson"?

[Sothron]

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Okay what 3 or 4 yrs. ? Point is it doesn't matter when you lose in the 1st round every year does it?

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Please stop posting about this, seriously. You have no idea how many years Babs teams made the playoffs or what team absolutely dominated the NBA in that timespan. No one in the NBA repeat for emphasis NO ONE beat the Bulls in the 90's in the playoffs when they had Jordan. The Hawks teams of the 90's had the same problem the Hawks teams in the 80's had: really good but not quite great. And when you had to beat Bird's Celtics, Isiah's Pistons or Jordan's Bulls just to GET TO the Finals that is never going to cut it.

Blaming Babcock because the Hawks like the other 31 teams in the NBA could not beat the Bulls in the 90's in the playoffs is grossly unfair.

[Sothron]

Yes, sorry I'm at work and trying to multitask here. It was Johnson and not the other Eddie Johnson.

[gutz]

Hey I might not have religiously followed the Hawks in the 90's mostly because i was young but my only point in all this is that Babcock left this franchise in ruins. which is why we had to COMPLETELY rebuild. WIll you at least acknowledge that?

[Packfill]

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Sorry man but Bonzi and Posey are AT BEST complimentary players. Gasol is an allstar and dominant big man!! What are you talking about?

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But he is not enough to win a championship with, so what is the point. BK did not know how to bring in the complimentary pieces that make a team work. That should be obvious.

Is BK's entire reputation based on one good draft pick? He has an absolute horrid track record for winning and picking coaches.

[Diesel]

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Ty Corbin and Grant Long were two of the best hard working players on those teams. If you are going to attack Babs starting with those two isn't going to get it done. You ranted about "heartless" Manning before (note I don't disagree, one of the reasons I hated Manning) but you attack the two guys with the most heart on our team? Priceless.

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Sure they were hard working...

Hell Royal Ivey works hard too.

Hell, Ty Lue works hard too.

However, we had several guys who wanted to play for us during that time:

Ced Ceballos.

Rick Fox.

Big Nasty even came through.

But we couldn't offer these premiere Sfs any money because we didn't have any because we were still trying to pay off guys like Ken Norman and Blair Rasmussen.

I was really hurt after reading about the Ced Ceballos incident. Our front office got a reputation for being inept.

That was the last time since JJ, Lue, and Al that FAs wanted to play for Atlanta.

Now, Corbin and Long... they were very good guys but they were not starter material. Yet we made them starters. Not because we saw something, but because we didn't have anything else.

[Sothron]

No, I will not agree he left this team in ruins. If you want a 2006 example of that look at the Knicks: grossly over the salary cap with several poison pill contracts that will NEVER be moved.

That is nowhere near what Babcock did. He traded for a frontcourt with three All-star players. He drafted a young point guard in Terry who almost won the Finals with another team last year. If Dermarr Johnson had not been almost killed we never know how that team would have done.

Even with those trades he made sure we took no insane contracts back. He never compromised our long term salary cap for a short term gain which is what many bad GMs do. He left us with tradeable pieces with short deals that could be moved. All Knight had to do was move some pieces around and reap the GIGANTIC cap space Babcock had already cleared by trading guys like Blaylock, Smitty and Dikemebe away.

We may all hate the way the Babcock era ended but its not intellectually honest to try and portray him as a do nothing GM who never did anything to help this OR had years and years and *years* of playoff teams. He had some other shortcomings (drafting) but all in all he is a much better general manager than Knight could ever hope to be.

I honestly would not pick either one to start an expansion franchise with unless all drafting powers were out of Babcock's hands. Knight has done such a moronic job of rebuilding this team that he wouldn't get any chances at all with me.

[gutz]

Hey again i'm not a BK fan by any means I just find it laughable that Ron is saying Babcock is so much better. They are both horrible GM's in my book.

[Packfill]

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Hey again i'm not a BK fan by any means I just find it laughable that Ron is saying Babcock is so much better. They are both horrible GM's in my book.

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That we agree on! It is frustrating being a Hawk fan.

[Sothron]

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Ty Corbin and Grant Long were two of the best hard working players on those teams. If you are going to attack Babs starting with those two isn't going to get it done. You ranted about "heartless" Manning before (note I don't disagree, one of the reasons I hated Manning) but you attack the two guys with the most heart on our team? Priceless.

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Sure they were hard working...

Hell Royal Ivey works hard too.

Hell, Ty Lue works hard too.

However, we had several guys who wanted to play for us during that time:

Ced Ceballos.

Rick Fox.

Big Nasty even came through.

But we couldn't offer these premiere Sfs any money because we didn't have any because we were still trying to pay off guys like Ken Norman and Blair Rasmussen.

I was really hurt after reading about the Ced Ceballos incident. Our front office got a reputation for being inept.

That was the last time since JJ, Lue, and Al that FAs wanted to play for Atlanta.

Now, Corbin and Long... they were very good guys but they were not starter material. Yet we made them starters. Not because we saw something, but because we didn't have anything else.

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Yes, I guess Ty Corbin didn't play in the NBA for what 17 years and started on other teams besides the Hawks. He was widely regarded as the best "glue guy" in the game when he played (which is how he played for so long) and Grant Long was a rugged PF who started for both the Heat and for the Hawks.

We offered Rick Fox a contract, TWICE, when his previous deals ended. He passed us over TWICE for other teams.

I wish we had went after Ceballos as well but even with him on board do you really think this team could have beat the Bulls in the playoffs? Especially when NO ONE IN THE NBA beat them with Jordan?

[gutz]

I agree I'm just so frustrated with this team right now. I actually think we have tons of talent and right when we see our team come out strong these ridiculous injuries start happening. This team has to be cursed or something. I just can't believe it. I think with a better coach this team can easily make the playoffs though. The talent is there. Were just missing a big Defensive Center right now. We can remedy that in the draft next year with INdy's pick by taking Hibbert from Georgetown. We need him badly.

[Diesel]

You're right, we did offer Rick Fox a contract...

The first time, our offer was so low that it was laughable. He was leaving Boston, stopped in Atlanta, we offered him a little more than the league minimum and he laughed and went on to LAL. The Second time, he outright used us to get a better deal with LAL.

You're right.

However, we also had a chance to get Ceballos.

We also had a chance to get Big Nasty. I think it was Big Nasty who wanted to play for us and said that he waited by his phone in Ark. for Babcock to call him back and Babcock never did.

About those other guys:

Long was a hard worker, but not starting material.

Corbin was an older vet by the time we got him. Here's how the story read when we got him (NY TIMES):

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Corbin has played with eight N.B.A. teams during his 11-year career. He also played under Hawks Coach LENNY WILKENS when Wilkens was with Cleveland. Last year, with Sacramento and Miami, Corbin averaged 5.8 points per gam

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Now, if he were "the best GLUE guy" in the game, why is it that 8 other teams didn't recognize this and their need for him?

No. Corbin wasn't the best glue guy in the game000. Corbin was a very good reserve player. By the time we got him, he was old. 11 years at the Sf position... That's Corliss Williamson right now. Would you make Corliss Williamson or even 11 year player your starting Sf.

Hell, you'd be fired for playing a guy who scored 5.8 ppg with his previous team as your starter.

[Sothron]

Who cares what his scoring average was on another team? Are you actually being serious here or what? Corbin was the glue guy who held our offense and defense together. He is the best help team defensive player I have ever seen in the NBA (along with Charles Oakley) and he was a huge contributor to our team. Not everything shows up in a stat column. Except for wins which Corbin most definitely helped us to get.

At least you could admit you were wrong about Rick Fox. We offered twice a good contract and he spurned us both times.