Who is your GM: Babcock or BK...

[Sothron]

Jesus grant me patience.

The point I am making Gutzy is that Babcock knowingly traded for Ratliff and SAR when both were young All-stars at the two hardest positions to get, center and power forward, and yet both of them had contracts that were not long. He made the trades with the idea that IF key word IF they did not work AND he could not trade them that they would ONLY BE HERE for a short time and then we would have HUGE CAP SPACE to do something else.

So saying these "aging" (both guys were in the mid twenties when we got them) players with "Bloated" (both of them had deals that were ALMOST UP) contracts is simply not true. Its simply nonsense to say otherwise because of how untrue it is. Its like saying the Knicks beat the Bulls three years to win the NBA title. Its just not true.

At every major point in his tenure here Babs made deals that moved aging players for younger players and with an eye at total cap flexibility in case those younger players did NOT work out. Babs totally rebuilt the 1980's playoff team with aging players into the perennial playoff contender we had in the 1990's. The only two major mistakes he made was the draft and in hiring Lon Kruger.

There is simply no comparing him to a joke like Knight who can't even win THIRTY GAMES with TWO TEAMS.

[Sothron]

Theo had two years left on his contract after we traded for him and SAR had one year left on his deal when we traded him. Try again.

The only reason the S&T from SAR to the Nets fell through was from SAR flunking the physical on his knee. That has nothing to do with this argument so I'll mention the fact I'm listing to Silverchair on Yahoo radio right now to make the same point.

And btw you are totally wrong on your belief that Babcock "inherited a playoff team and basically did nothing to it" as you've stated repeatedly. Babcock had to dismantle the aging 80's roster and he BRILLIANTLY did so and put together the 90's playoff team that was the Jordan Bulls away from possibly winning a title.

To try and wilfully cover that up and not include it in an analysis of his tenure as GM is intellectually dishonest.

[Diesel]

The problem is that you don't trade your best player when you are winning. We were the best in the EC. It just didn't make any sense to make that drastic a change, when you're winning!

[Packfill]

Quote:

---

Again i'm not saying BK is any better but Babcock is awful! Do you realize we traded Nique for Manning(who was going to be UFA next season)? Why in the hell would you do that trade? Of course Manning was going to leave in the offseason to pursue a hefty contract. Friggin DUH!!!! We got zero compensation for the best player of all time to EVER wear a Hawks uniform. Your nuts if you think that was a good trade for the Hawks. HE also traded those same good character guys like SMitty and Mutombo for bums NOTHING. So whats your point. He trades for Smitty and Mookie but then trades them away and we go straight to the bottom of the standings again. No draft picks and no good players in return? He traded Terry for Walker to get cap relief and then traded Walker for draft picks moron! I don't even want to get into his horrible drafting over the years with numerous 1st round picks that were just downright laughable. I don't even think one of his draft picks is still in the NBA! Everyone on this board could have drafted better than Babcock. To BK's credit this is really only his 3rd year of the rebuilding process that had to take place because of Babcock's total BLUNDERS. Are you forgetting that Jerry West was winning in Memphis with ALL of BK's players as well? West came in and did nothing with Memphis going to the playoff the last 2 years with a whole roster constructed by BK. Like I said before both Babcock and BK are horrible GM's in my book. I just find it laughable that your saying Babcock was a good GM for the Hawks. Were now still living with the crippled franchise he left us with that we had to rebuild from scratch.

---

West did make some very necessary and important changes to get that team into the playoffs. First and foremost was hiring a decent coach - something BK has never done. Second was acquiring the teams second and third leading scorers the first year they made the playoffs (i.e., Posey and Bonzi).

I don't understand why people get all hot and bothered about the wonderful foundation BK built in Memphis. He did not exactly build a championship roster. Gasol is a good player, not a great one. Other then that BK only acquired complimentary players. Why is that such an accomplishment?

[Diesel]

Dude Theo was hurt when we traded for him and Larry Brown knew that Theo had some PUNK ways about him. Theo sat in the suit about a year longer than he was expected to.

[gutz]

Okay but your point is just stupid. Your saying that Babcock was willing to tank at least 2years in case these guys didn't pan out because when he acquired them they both had at least 2 years left on their salaries? Does that sound like being a good GM to you? That is just ridiculous thinking. Ratliff was awful offensively his whole career and most people don't really consider him all star talent for one even if he did somehow make the allstar team one year. Ratliff has been washed up for the last 6+ years dude. I guess you still don't realize that Memphis has been to the playoffs every year since BK left. Jerry West was just getting all the credit for it but now look at him. He trades their glue guy in Battier last draft and now fires his coach because they suck.

[gutz]

Sorry man but Bonzi and Posey are AT BEST complimentary players. Gasol is an allstar and dominant big man!! What are you talking about?

[gsuteke]

Quote:

---

The problem is that you don't trade your best player when you are winning. We were the best in the EC. It just didn't make any sense to make that drastic a change, when you're winning!

---

i see what you are saying but he got a player in return that was in the same ballpark talent wise with Nique at the time who was on the up and up and the time vs. on the downside of his career.

i guess a logical way to get Manning would have been to wait until the offseason to sign him since the season was almost 2/3 over.

you never know what Nique's camp was saying to Babcock at the time behind closed doors. perhaps he was a goner and Babcock was trying to get something for him before he walked.

[AHF]

Quote:

---

Theo had two years left on his contract after we traded for him and SAR had one year left on his deal when we traded him. Try again.

---

SAR played out his contract with Portland through the end of the 2004-05 season.

Quote:

---

Abdur-Rahim was traded to the Portland Trail Blazers on February 9, 2004, along with Theo Ratliff and Dan Dickau, in exchange for Rasheed Wallace and Wesley Person. He played 1½ seasons in Portland before becoming a free agent at the end of the 2004-05 season.

---

I said SAR's first season under a new contract was the 2005-06 season. How is that wrong?

[gutz]

Exactly that is what I've been saying. Babcock traded away the best player to EVER wear a Hawks uniform for an in-season rental in Manning who left right after the season anyways. We got ZERO in return! Not even one draft pick or player. Why make that trade? There had to be other options available at the time. Babcock is just an idiot trading for someone who was going to be a FA next season.

[Sothron]

No I am saying that in a WORST CASE scenario we would ONLY have to eat two years in bad contracts IF two freaking All-stars didn't work out. Who in the world knew that a team with the **entire frontcourt** loaded with All-stars couldn't win? It was good in theory, great even, but it did not work out that way.

WITH THAT SAID! Babs **still** had the foresight to only take these guys with few years left to protect the long term future of the franchise. You guys are not giving him ANY credit for rebuilding the old 80's team into the winning 90's team almost ALL on trades and free agent signings and the fact when he blew that team up he still left us with pieces and contracts that were valuable. No one hands out first rounders for bad deals or bum players (unless its Isiah Thomas).

And as other people have pointed out the only thing Knight really did in Memphis was make the trade to get Gasol. It wasn't until West made roster changes AND HIRED good coaches that they did anything. So how much credit do you want to give Knight for one trade?? Why doesn't Babs get the same credit for practically stealing Mookie, Smitty, Laettner and Terry away in trades? You can't have it both ways.

[gsuteke]

Quote:

---

Exactly that is what I've been saying. Babcock traded away the best player to EVER wear a Hawks uniform for an in-season rental in Manning who left right after the season anyways. We got ZERO in return! Not even one draft pick or player. Why make that trade? There had to be other options available at the time. Babcock is just an idiot trading for someone who was going to be a FA next season.

---

Gutzy I think we operate on two different wavelengths. in fact I'm sure of it.

[Sothron]

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Exactly that is what I've been saying. Babcock traded away the best player to EVER wear a Hawks uniform for an in-season rental in Manning who left right after the season anyways. We got ZERO in return! Not even one draft pick or player. Why make that trade? There had to be other options available at the time. Babcock is just an idiot trading for someone who was going to be a FA next season.

---

Gutzy I think we operate on two different wavelengths. in fact I'm sure of it.

---

Trust me you aren't the only one who feels like he's talking to a brickwall here.

[AHF]

Quote:

---

No I am saying that in a WORST CASE scenario we would ONLY have to eat two years in bad contracts IF two freaking All-stars didn't work out. Who in the world knew that a team with the **entire frontcourt** loaded with All-stars couldn't win? It was good in theory, great even, but it did not work out that way.

---

Two years in bad contracts and high lottery draft picks.

Quote:

---

WITH THAT SAID! Babs **still** had the foresight to only take these guys with few years left to protect the long term future of the franchise.

---

BS. If he was trying to protect against failure he would have lottery protected those #1 picks he so carelessly gave away.

Quote:

---

You guys are not giving him ANY credit for rebuilding the old 80's team into the winning 90's team almost ALL on trades and free agent signings and the fact when he blew that team up he still left us with pieces and contracts that were valuable. No one hands out first rounders for bad deals or bum players (unless its Isiah Thomas).

---

He deserves credit for that. He did a good, albeit not perfect, job with FA and trades. How that is relevant for an expansion franchise is a good question, though.

[Diesel]

Were you watching the Hawks back then?

Seriously. I was. Big fan.

We got a player who looked good on the stats pages... but Danny Manning had no heart.

Dominque had the biggest heart in the world. The OMNI was the place that Nique had built. He went to war every night for the Hawks. That season was like the Homecoming for the Warrior King. He had fought and fought and fought and finally he had a team who could fight with him... We were the best team playing. Yeah, we had some early losses but we played hard, learned the defense, and fought. Nique was always what we needed. Then what happened?

We traded Nique for Manning.

Manning was bigger, he was younger, but he didn't have any heart. We played INDY in the playoffs. In the time when we needed Heart the most, Danny the dinosaur disappeared!! Dominqiue would have died on the court before he let us lose to Indy especially they way we lost. We had scores in the 70s....

Where was Manning?

I'll tell you where he was, he was making plans to go to Phoenix...

Heartless.

[gsuteke]

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Exactly that is what I've been saying. Babcock traded away the best player to EVER wear a Hawks uniform for an in-season rental in Manning who left right after the season anyways. We got ZERO in return! Not even one draft pick or player. Why make that trade? There had to be other options available at the time. Babcock is just an idiot trading for someone who was going to be a FA next season.

---

Gutzy I think we operate on two different wavelengths. in fact I'm sure of it.

---

Trust me you aren't the only one who feels like he's talking to a brickwall here.

---

have you seen any of that classic stuff over at RealGM?

[gutz]

Why give him credit for making us to the playoffs what 2 yrs in the 90's with 1st and 2nd round exits to only ruin the franchise the way he did when he acquired bums like Big Dog and Rider and doesn't know how to draft young talent for the future? Are you serious that he left this frachise in good shape for the future? Okay thanks Babcock for getting us to the playoffs with a huge payroll only to lose in the 1st or 2nd round. Wow that takes a lot of talent to accomplish. It sounds to me you giving Babs a little too much credit not realizing why were in the position we are in now.

[gutz]

Your points are dumb which is why you usually talk to a brick wall. I know what your saying but they are senseless to even bring up to try and prove a point that has no merit. I'm sure you know exactly what Babcock's thinking was Sothron! Your a genius

[gsuteke]

Quote:

---

Your points are dumb which is why you usually talk to a brick wall. I know what your saying but they are senseless to even bring up to try and prove a point that has no merit.

---

LOL @ Gutzy.

[gsuteke]

Quote:

---

Your points are dumb which is why you usually talk to a brick wall. I know what your saying but they are senseless to even bring up to try and prove a point that has no merit. I'm sure you know exactly what Babcock's thinking was Sothron! Your a genius

---

you've changed this thing 3 times already Gutzy.