Is the prejudice on YI starting to lift??

[Guest Walter]

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No, oi, if he wasn't a FORWARD people wouldn't be so hard on the guy.

Why dont you get that we cant use another forward?

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We have 3 needs all essentially equal: Pg prospect, C prospect, and TALENT. While it is correct to say we NEED a Pg, it is not correct to say that that is all we need.

Nobody here disputes that Conley is NOT the most talented player available at 3. Nobody here can credibly argue that Conley will be a better NBA Pg than Law or Crittenton.

The argument that we don't need another forward is 1/2 correct, but we do need more talent and this draft provides it, potentially a superstar, at the Pf position. The argument that we need a Pg prospect is 1/2 correct, but we can get an equal if not better one at 11. The argument that we need a center prospect is 1/2 correct, but you won't get a credible one with the 11th pick in this draft and certainly not a better one than you would get with the 3rd pick or even trading MW (or JC)/SW.

So, to state the obvious (i.e. that we don't need another Pf, or we do need a Pg) is simply ridiculous. NOBODY is saying that we do need a Pf or don't need a Pg. All anybody is saying is that being the 4th losingest team with it's two top players that do not compare to the top 15 teams in the league...we NEED TALENT also. All anybody is saying is that if we are to get a center prospect this year we will HAVE to trade PERIOD! So, if we're going to have to trade for a center prospect anyway and if we need TALENT, don't make assinine statements that don't consider either such as "we don't need a Pf". NO [censored]! But we do need a star-superstar better than JS and/or JJ, we can get an equal Pg at 11, and since we're going to have to trade to get a center prospect anyway, let's trade more value than the 11th pick to ensure we get a center prospect of some merit!

Note: I'm also open to trading the 3rd pick for a star quality center prospect.

W

[thesheedera]

Any day now Diesel, read through my posts and admit that I never wrote anything that suggests a prejudice regarding Yi. If you find a post where I did, please feel free to quote it.

[thesheedera]

Man enough to admit when you're wrong about someone, or that you made a mistake?

Didn't think so.

[TexasPete]

Walter, your touting a player you have never seen play a game. I thought you were more logical than this...

Can you at least wait until he works out and we get more info? Please?

[thesheedera]

Can we get a sticky on this one?

Just how stubborn are you?

All you have to do is write that you misunderstood what I was saying. Go ahead, give it a try.

"...and the truth shall set you free"

[Diesel]

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My point was that because of Yao's position (as well as height and

his dominating resume,

both more impressive than Yi's) he was a more sought after prospect, therefore more interest from teams and scouts, therefore a lot more exposure to NBA fans following draft prospects.

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Let's start there. What dominating resume'? At the time Yao was drafted, he had no dominating resume'. The only thing Yao had done was participate in the 2000 olympics and got beat down by Team USA. He scored 5 points.

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Position is not relevant when discussing Yi compared to Durant. I prefer Durant, because I've watched him play dozens of times and know what I think I can expect from him. I've never seen Yi play. If I could, I would, but I don;t have that option with my cable package.

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This is the basis of this thread. The only difference between a guy like Yi and a guy like Durant in the eyes of Squawkers is EXPOSURE. Nobody here has seen as much Yi and they have seen Durant. Yet, there are many here who has come to the conclusion that "Yi has no upside", "Yi is another Sf while Durant is a 'Special Player'", "Yi is Soft"...

All of that is prejudice.

I apologize to you for saying you had prejudged Yi. You obviously haven't. But there are others on this board who have and are stilling doing it.

[Guest Walter]

Regardless, next to a so called 'tweener forward like JS a so called 'tweener forward like Yi could play to each other's strengths.

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That has nothing to do with the conversation.

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In the draft POSITION MATTERS. A true center will ALWAYS get picked way ahead of a tweener forward of similar ability.

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For a 4th losingest team, with it's two best players being less than all the top 10 team's and half the middle 10 team's two best players, a Pf of significantly greater ability than a Pg and two other Pgs "of similar ability" likely to be available at 11, the significantly more talented Pf should always get picked.

"Position matters" but so do ALL FACTORS like team needs including but not limited to TALENT, what the draft offers in terms of talent at 3 vs 11, what the draft offers in terms of Pgs at 3 and 11, the fact that we MUST make a trade to fill our center prospect needs...

All of which you seem to overlook for numbskull 1/2 truths like "but we need a Pg". Thanks for the enlightenment. NOW can we look at the details. That's where the devil is.

W

[TexasPete]

Sheed, I don't think he is man enough by a long shot. I wouldn't worry about it. Just ignore him like I do...

Because debating with a guy with his mentality you cannot win. He zigs and zags, throws insults, then zigs and zags some more.

I honestly don't believe he even believes some of what comes out of his own head. But, even he should know that hurling prejudice charges is not cool. Especially when nobody has done it.

[AHF]

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I think Carmello Anthony was the first or second Rookie CPOY.. and it may have even been Isiah Thomas...

Anyway..

I don't doubt anything else of what you say.

What I say is this: Yi didn't play in college.

Everything you have built up about Durant is built up on a house of EXPOSURE. He has had a lot of exposure. Since he was at Oak Hill.

Yi has not had any exposure except his play against team USA where the players for team USA recognized Yi's game specifically...

so to make a statement that Yi has no upside to me seems like you are rushing to a conclusion without facts or basis. In my eyes, that's prejudice.

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Let me say this again so it is clear and you can stop raising this strawman: I am not saying Yi has no upside.

Are we past that? If so, good. If not, please state your source for me saying he has no upside and we can address that directly because if I said that I believe he has not upside it was a typo.

(1) Exposure does not equal performance. You and I agree that Yi didn't play in college. We agree he did not have the opportunity to be the first freshman college player of the year (Carmelo wasn't the POY so you are flat wrong on that). Where we disagree is that I am not willing to grant him status equal to winning the college player of the year simply because he didn't have the opportunity to do so. A lot of great players didn't win the POY award as a freshman when they had the chance to do so.

What I am saying is that Durant and Yi obviously both have great tools but that I give Durant more credit as a prospect because he has proved it on a level that Yi hasn't. You may believe that Yi would have done that had he been in college here but I am not willing to give him that speculative credit.

(2) Yi's success in China does not carry the same weight with me. Look at the people who have also put up great numbers in China and it is not a list of guys who could go #3 in this draft. That doesn't mean that Yi shouldn't go #3 in this draft. It simply means his accomplishments to date don't stack up against Durant for me.

Scouts don't equate Durant and Yi as prospects and neither do I. That doesn't mean Yi is being stereotyped.

(3) Yi's international play was a mixed bag. Someone else has posted it before but he did well against the US and did poorly against other teams. That is intriguing but also does not equate to Durant's pedigree for me. Carlos Arroyo killed the US in international play and was praised much more than Yi by the US players but still is not even an NBA starter. So that is good but not as meaningful for me as what Durant has done.

(4) The skills and physical tools Yi demonstrates are very intriguing. Similar tools and skills are why Bargnani was a lottery pick, why Dirk was a lottery pick, why Skita was a lottery pick, etc. They are why I think he is a high risk/high reward guy. That doesn't mean I am rushing to take him with the same fervor I would Durant. It also doesn't mean I am prejudiced against him because of his race.

[mrhonline]

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Can you at least wait until he works out and we get more info? Please?

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Agreed. And I think a lot of this is going to make more sense over the new few weeks when we start hearing rumors of trades involving the Hawks.

Drafting Yi may very well be seen as filling a need very soon(who knows, maybe Smith will be traded for a center?).

[exodus]

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so to make a statement that Yi has no upside

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http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g195/tontoz/strawman.jpg

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[thesheedera]

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I apologize to you for saying you had prejudged Yi. You obviously haven't. But there are others on this board who have and are stilling doing it.

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FANTASTIC Now doesn't that feel good? No where did I say anything prejudiced about Yi. I like Yi, and I have no problem taking him at 3. But you still maintain that you know why posters like Durant more, and it isn't as simple as prejudice and race. For some it may be, but you have no right to claim that you know why others prefer one player over another.

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"Yi has no upside", "Yi is another Sf while Durant is a 'Special Player'", "Yi is Soft"...

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Those a prejudgements to be certain. Just be careful who has made them and who hasn't. Also make sure you read carefully enough to see when someone is saying "Yi is ____" and if they're making that judgement based on an expert who has scouted the player, than it is not an innate prejudice, it's taking information and repeating it.

I've seen Durant play. I believe he's better than Marvin or Childress. He may be better than Smith. I would like to make room for him.

I ahven't seen Yi play, so I have no reason to assume he is as good as or better than Durant.

And just because we don't know, doesn't mean you can say that he's as good or better than Durant, cause you don't konw either.

Yao actually did have an impressive resume, I pasted it in my post above - It's included in his scouting report.

[TexasPete]

AHF, your position makes perfect sense to most people. I wouldn't try to clarify/justify it to him because he is simple, has been caught in lies and hypocrisy, and is now resorting to phony accusations to try to make himself look plausible.

His opinions on this board have been trivialized and have little weight. He is like the bearded lady at the circus...you don't look because it's pretty, you might peak just because of how freakish she is...

I believe Diesel is the bearded lady of Hawksquawk.

[TexasPete]

MRH, I agree with you 100%.

[AHF]

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Nobody here can credibly argue that Conley will be a better NBA Pg than Law or Crittenton.

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How do you reach this conclusion? [Note: This is a very different conclusion than simply concluding that Conley is no better than Law or Critt.]

Do you believe anyone can "credibly argue" that Yi will be a better NBA player than Brandon Wrigh, Al Horford, Corey Brewer, or even Julian Wright under the same standard by which you think no one can credibly argue Conley will be better than Law or Critt?

[exodus]

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so to make a statement that Yi has no upside

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[Guest Walter]

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Walter, your touting a player you have never seen play a game. I thought you were more logical than this...

Can you at least wait until he works out and we get more info? Please?

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I feel I was correct about Bargnani (even for Toronto) and I feel Yi looks even better so far. Yes, it's early. If I'm wrong I'll say so. I haven't committed to Yi or Wright or a trade of the 3rd pick for a center prospect. I can certainly change my position and will if it merits being changed. Still, the early returns, what I see in the clips, indicate to me that Yi is the front runner for the 3rd most talented player in this draft. I have no issue with him losing it. I also conceed that without seeing him compete against his counterparts we cannot well judge his ability to transition to the NBA. Fortunately, we sit in the cat bird, 3rd overall pick seat. Players will have to try out for us. We shouldn't have ANY problem working and double working out players against whomever. If BK blows this workout process like last year's he should be openly mocked by all GMs everywhere.

I simply do not believe that Mike Conley of Ohio State is REMOTELY the most talented player behind Oden or Durant. It's not even close. Hell, I think Crittenton has more potential in the NBA than Conley. I think Law is more NBA ready. While Conley MIGHT be a good mix of the two that hope is no reason to pick him 3rd in this draft.

That's the ONLY decision I have made for certain. Conley is not significantly better or worse than any of the 3 Pgs and at least 1 if not 2 of them will be available at 11. We have more needs than Pg and those needs are harder to fill and require more capitol than Pg.

Thus, don't use the greater capitol (3rd pick) on the equal need (Pg vs C, vs TALENT) that's easier to fill (TALENT=Center>Pg). That's ALL I've decided. If that isn't logical then what is?

W

[Diesel]

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What I am saying is that Durant and Yi obviously both have great tools but that I give Durant more credit as a prospect because he has proved it on a level that Yi hasn't. You may believe that Yi would have done that had he been in college here but I am not willing to give him that speculative credit.

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It is true that Durant has had opportunity that Yi has not. Should Yi be penalized because he didn't have the opportunity? It seems like you are saying that he should be.

I'm saying I wouldn't overemphasize Durant's college accomplishments in comparison to Yi. It's like if you were to compare me to Racer X.. and Racer X said that he was the Greenland National Champion in Racing. What exactly does that mean?? A true comparison can not take place until they are in the same league doing the same thing...

You know, it's misplaced arrogance. You believe that because Durant dominated the college game that he's the best in the world? Here's a secret, basketball around the world has caught up and past the US. Our professional players haven't won the Gold in the olympics in a long time. Our best shows up on a World stage and Spain and Argentina whips their ass. So how dare you come to a conclusion that just because Durant has college Hardware, that makes him better?

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The skills and physical tools Yi demonstrates are very intriguing.

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When evaluating a basketball player, this is the only thing that really matter. And when you consider Yi... When was the last time you have seen a 7'1 245lber with speed like a Sf and great fundamental moves... I say KG.. What do you say? I'm not saying that Yi is better than Durant. NO not at all, i think Highly of Durant. What I'm saying is that there is a prejudice against Yi and it's because of his lack of exposure..

NOT RACE as you insinuated earlier when I asked you to check the definition of prejudice.

[mrhonline]

I'm definitely convinced that Yi's skill set for his size makes him at least the 3rd best option at #3. (Option #1 is trading the pick for a veteran, All-Star caliber big, and option #2 is taking a chance that Conley is a starting-caliber PG). Unfortunately, the gap between option #2 and #3 is MONSTROUS unless Knight thinks he can play effectively at center, or has plans to trade away Smith or Shelden.

[Guest Walter]

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Nobody here can credibly argue that Conley will be a better NBA Pg than Law or Crittenton.

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How do you reach this conclusion? [Note: This is a very different conclusion than simply concluding that Conley is no better than Law or Critt.]

Do you believe anyone can "credibly argue" that Yi will be a better NBA player than Brandon Wrigh, Al Horford, Corey Brewer, or even Julian Wright under the same standard by which you think no one can credibly argue Conley will be better than Law or Critt?

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We've (almost) all seen enough of Conley, Critt, Law to make a well educated determination that there isn't alot seperating these guys from each other. They are different in style somewhat but relatively the same in terms of NBA prospects. Moreover, if you are makign a positive claim the onus is on you to defend it. If you want to insist that something seperates one Pg from the other two enough that we should put aside our need for talent and draft a Pg at 3 rather than 11...then PROVE IT.

I can't say whether Wright or Yi are better in part because I haven't seen enough of or heard enough about Yi. I do believe Wright is clearly better and a better NBA prospect than all the Pg prospects and I suspect Yi is better than Wright based upon the footage I've seen. However, I will reserve final judgement until I see or read enough about he and Wright together. The indication from the Noah interview was that Noah was "awed" by Yi and given Noah's knowledge of Horford to be awed by anyone suggests Yi is significantly better than Horford. I really like Horford but this shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone.