Is the prejudice on YI starting to lift??

[thesheedera]

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What I'm saying is that there is a prejudice against Yi and it's because of his lack of exposure..

NOT RACE as you insinuated earlier when I asked you to check the definition of prejudice.

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twisting, twisting, twisting

"Race" may not have been a part of your accusation, but "nationality" most definitely was.

Diesel, you like metaphors. What we have are two prizes, you either pick the one you can see in clear view, or you pick the one behind the curtain. Durant is the one you can see and know what he is. Yi is behind the curtain. You haven't seen Durant play in the NBA, but you've seen him play over and over again against a level of competition where a vast majority of NBA talent comes from. You can make a good guess at his value and his future.

Yi's the unknown, you have to take other's word for it. You have to have faith in their judgements and descriptions. He may be a flop or the greatest of all time, like Durant, but because he's behind teh curtain you don't have your own personal opinion of him, you have an opinion based on the description from people who have seen him, so it's second handed information. And even those people have most likely seen him less than they've seen Durant, so you ahve to take that into accout. Add to it that none of those people (as far as I know) ahve ventured to claim Yi is better than Durant, and it seems pretty obvious why everyone prefers durant over Yi.

So to say that you prefer the more visible and known commodity who is regarded by experts as the better commodity is not being prejudiced, it's being logical.

Saying that Yi's being "punished" by not getting more exposure is nonsensensical and illogical.

[Diesel]

Very amusing ..

anyway,

First DJ Money said: "Nothing about Yi suggests that he will be able to defend in the NBA."

AHF then said something to the effect that one can conclude that Yi has no upside.

I'm sure that AHF was trying to surmize that there is a way that somebody could come to the opionion that Yi has no upside without being prejudice. However, I still stat that if that ONE has no basis or justification, it's prejudice. And it's damn near impossible to watch a 7'1" guy with Yi's skillset and speed and tell me that there's a basis for saying he has no upside.

To me that's like saying "It's possible to scientifically conclude that the sun is not hot.". It doesn't matter how Smart you're trying to sound, to make a dumb statement like that is easily refuted with just the little knowledge that we have. The same is true about being able to conclude that Yi has no upside without being prejudice. The fact that he's 7'1 and coordinated means that he has upside.

[mrhonline]

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If you want to insist that something seperates one Pg from the other two enough that we should put aside our need for talent and draft a Pg at 3 rather than 11...then PROVE IT.

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What part of Conley's "generally considered the best at distributing and running a team" is difficult to grasp?

If you don't think he is, so be it. But to act as if the rest of us are being illogical for thinking that Conley can be the distributing, pass-first PG the team needs is questionable.

We might be wrong, but we're not being illogical.

[DavidSomerset]

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Regardless, next to a so called 'tweener forward like JS a so called 'tweener forward like Yi could play to each other's strengths.

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That has nothing to do with the conversation.

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In the draft POSITION MATTERS. A true center will ALWAYS get picked way ahead of a tweener forward of similar ability.

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For a 4th losingest team, with it's two best players being less than all the top 10 team's and half the middle 10 team's two best players, a Pf of significantly greater ability than a Pg and two other Pgs "of similar ability" likely to be available at 11, the significantly more talented Pf should always get picked.

"Position matters" but so do ALL FACTORS like team needs including but not limited to TALENT, what the draft offers in terms of talent at 3 vs 11, what the draft offers in terms of Pgs at 3 and 11, the fact that we MUST make a trade to fill our center prospect needs...

All of which you seem to overlook for numbskull 1/2 truths like "but we need a Pg". Thanks for the enlightenment. NOW can we look at the details. That's where the devil is.

W

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You have probably never even seen the guy play.

Professional scouts that have watched him have said he has a big PF body (really a C's body) but plays like a SF...His game is mostly perimeter...His moves in the post aren't good and he GETS

PUSHED AROUND DOWN LOW

!!

Is that what you want on this team? Someone who is

soft

?

Yi would be the biggest waste of a pick in the Billy Knight era.

I can't believe the same people who have been bashing him for the past few years for taking SF's/PF's (as have I) want him to take ANOTHER one!!!

http://nbadraft.net/admincp/profiles/yijianlian.html

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Weaknesses:

There is some concern as to what position he will play in the NBA: He lacks the upper body strength and the back to the basket moves at power forward and is a bit long and rangy for the three

… Needs to improve his three point shooting to play minutes to be effective at SF … Despite his vast improvement, Jianlian needs to continue to develop his upper body strength …

At this point of his career, he’s more comfortable facing the basket than with his back to the basket

… Although he doesn’t shy away from physical contact

he can get disrupted with rough post play … Struggles to maintain his position in the low post as opposing defenders tend to push him out

… Defensively he will not be the huge shot blocking presence that he is in the China, due to his timing and the speed of the NBA game … Has a habit of putting the ball on the floor to achieve rhythm instead of keeping the ball high away from opposing guards …. Confidence can wavier in games when he’s struggling to score … Although listed as being born in 1987 many within China place him between 1985-1986 … Doesn’t always play defensive with great intensity, he won’t be able to get away with it in the NBA …

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[TroyMcClure]

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Walter, your touting a player you have never seen play a game. I thought you were more logical than this...

Can you at least wait until he works out and we get more info? Please?

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That's what we are all saying. We've seen a little. I am very intrigued.

It's not so much abot Yi with me as the rest of the draft being very underwhelming. This guy could be better than Marvin, that's why you take another forward. We could trade him, too.

I know everyone wants 40 wins so bad they can tast it, but Mike Conley is not going to lead us to 50 win seasons. It is delusional to think so. Maybe 40... once. We suck hard and Mike Conley ain't gonna' change that. We need talent. Seriously, someone name 1, just 1, 19 year old pg that has helped the team that drafted him.

[mrhonline]

And what 22(?) year old, skinny, forward from the CBA led their team anywhere?

That's not an argument for taking Yi, it's an argument for trading the pick. At least with Conley you're moving toward filling a need.

[exodus]

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AHF then said something to the effect that one can conclude that Yi has no upside.

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AHF said nothing like that.

Nobody said yi has no upside. You just made it up.

[AHF]

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Nobody here can credibly argue that Conley will be a better NBA Pg than Law or Crittenton.

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How do you reach this conclusion? [Note: This is a very different conclusion than simply concluding that Conley is no better than Law or Critt.]

Do you believe anyone can "credibly argue" that Yi will be a better NBA player than Brandon Wrigh, Al Horford, Corey Brewer, or even Julian Wright under the same standard by which you think no one can credibly argue Conley will be better than Law or Critt?

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We've (almost) all seen enough of Conley, Critt, Law to make a well educated determination that there isn't alot seperating these guys from each other. They are different in style somewhat but relatively the same in terms of NBA prospects. Moreover, if you are makign a positive claim the onus is on you to defend it. If you want to insist that something seperates one Pg from the other two enough that we should put aside our need for talent and draft a Pg at 3 rather than 11...then PROVE IT.

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Every mock draft in America lists Conley higher than Law and especially Critt yet you argue they are indistinguishable and I am the one who needs to prove it?

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The indication from the Noah interview was that Noah was "awed" by Yi and given Noah's knowledge of Horford to be awed by anyone suggests Yi is significantly better than Horford. I really like Horford but this shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone.

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Find one article quoting Noah as saying he he was "awed" by Yi and I will give you an apology.

[Diesel]

If we were choosing between Durant and Yi, I would take Durant on the basis of I know more about him. I'm prejudice too.

However, that doesn't mean that Yi is that far off of Durant. Becuase if it were possible to erase our prejudices...

What we would have before us is a 7'1 245lb PF/C who is agile and fast and have great fundamentals. vs. a 6'9 218 lb SF/PF who is agile, and has great fundamentals.

However, I think we allow our prejudice get the better of us when we say things like:

Well, Yi is soft.

or

Well, Durant is a "Special player" and Yi is another Sf.

Come on man... the truth is that until they are both in the same place doing the same thing, you can't make that kind of statement and definitely can't make an absolute judgement.

[AHF]

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AHF then said something to the effect that one can conclude that Yi has no upside.

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No I didn't. What are you talking about?

[Joker]

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Walter, your touting a player you have never seen play a game. I thought you were more logical than this...

Can you at least wait until he works out and we get more info? Please?

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I feel I was correct about Bargnani (even for Toronto) and I feel Yi looks even better so far. Yes, it's early. If I'm wrong I'll say so. I haven't committed to Yi or Wright or a trade of the 3rd pick for a center prospect. I can certainly change my position and will if it merits being changed. Still, the early returns, what I see in the clips, indicate to me that Yi is the front runner for the 3rd most talented player in this draft. I have no issue with him losing it. I also conceed that without seeing him compete against his counterparts we cannot well judge his ability to transition to the NBA. Fortunately, we sit in the cat bird, 3rd overall pick seat. Players will have to try out for us. We shouldn't have ANY problem working and double working out players against whomever. If BK blows this workout process like last year's he should be openly mocked by all GMs everywhere.

I simply do not believe that Mike Conley of Ohio State is REMOTELY the most talented player behind Oden or Durant. It's not even close. Hell, I think Crittenton has more potential in the NBA than Conley. I think Law is more NBA ready. While Conley MIGHT be a good mix of the two that hope is no reason to pick him 3rd in this draft.

That's the ONLY decision I have made for certain. Conley is not significantly better or worse than any of the 3 Pgs and at least 1 if not 2 of them will be available at 11. We have more needs than Pg and those needs are harder to fill and require more capitol than Pg.

Thus, don't use the greater capitol (3rd pick) on the equal need (Pg vs C, vs TALENT) that's easier to fill (TALENT=Center>Pg). That's ALL I've decided. If that isn't logical then what is?

W

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I don't feel Conley a reach, I feel he a bust. But to the point, none of ya'll hold credibilty on Yi, all of ya'll are going by youtube videos and all they show is he was much more atheletic then his opponents. He didn't look like he was quick, he did explode very good especially for a 7ft' but I didn't see much after that. He played in a league that's weaker then the ABA and didn't dominate. I question that, on I haven't seen much flim on him, other then NBATV showing CBA games, and China international games. I don't see him being great, Dirk dominated Germany, Gasol is king in Spain, but Yi is idolized for talents that most NBA players have already, I don't see this working, I wouldn't mind this pick last year, but not this year, it's too important and there are better players on the market. Most of ya'll are going by his youtube videos, and that is why many of you aren't scouts. I don't know, he could be good, but I don't see great, he can't shoot, something that Bargs can do, he drives well but in the NBA, people are going to throw his mess. The CBA is not the NBA, it's worst then the ABA. Bargs come from one of the best teams in Europe in the Superleague, Yi isn't even in the best league in Asia. Wang Zhi Zhi is the best player there, what does that tell you.

[Diesel]

AHF said

"That said, you could still conclude that Yi doesn't have a high upside and not be racist. "

Maybe if you were'nt so busy googling pictures you could read the thread before you make dumb comments.

[AHF]

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If we were choosing between Durant and Yi, I would take Durant on the basis of I know more about him. I'm prejudice too.

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I am beginning to think you may not understand what prejudice means.

Preferring someone or something because you know more about them or it is not prejudiced. It is acting on the basis of available information. That doesn't make it right or wrong but that is very different from prejudice.

[mrhonline]

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"That said, you could still conclude that Yi doesn't have a high upside and not be racist. "

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There is nothing inaccurate about that statement. Can everyone else agree (regardless of how you feel about Yi)?

[AHF]

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AHF said

"That said, you could still conclude that Yi doesn't have a high upside and not be racist. "

Maybe if you were'nt so busy googling pictures you could read the thread before you make dumb comments.

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If you read that in context to mean that I believe that Yi has no upside rather than as saying that a hypothetical person could conclude Yi does not have upside based on something other than race then I don't know what to tell you. I can't imagine how you find this confusing.

[mrhonline]

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[i can't imagine how you find this confusing.

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I'm kinda bamboozled by his confusion myself. It could be a Thursday thing.

[TroyMcClure]

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And what 22(?) year old, skinny, forward from the CBA led their team anywhere?

That's not an argument for taking Yi, it's an argument for trading the pick. At least with Conley you're moving toward filling a need.

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You can't answer the question because there aren't any. Mike Conley is going to be the first?

Yi would easily be, at worst, the 3rd or 4th best player we have. I say draft Yi and trade him or trade Marvin. Get some scrub, won't materialize pg at #11. Then, in a few years we can bring in a real pg.

[Diesel]

Prejudice to me is prejudge unfavorably without basis.

In other words, the only reason I would pick Durant over Yi is because I haven't seen Yi so I automatically think that what I have seen is better. That's prejudice.

YOU AHF were the first to make prejudice into a racial prejudice... that's prejudging unfavorably on the basis of race.

I told you a long time ago, it's not race, it's exposure.

It's not nationalism. It's Exposure.

If you don't believe that you can be prejudice based on exposure, then you've never met a person who didn't like something because they've never been exposed to it.

In college, I dated a girl who didn't like grits but she had never had them. Once she had them, she wanted them everyday. Her original attitude was prejudice. She was prejudice of grits because she knew nothing about them.

I think it is the same with a lot of posters here. Their lack of exposure to Yi causes them to make statements that are not valid, causes them to judge yi as being ___________. and they have never seen him play..

My question is what is your basis? They have none...

If you ask me my basis for liking him, I will say He's fast, He's 7'1 245. He's coordinated. He's got good fundamentals. He's exhibited good footwork in the clips I have seen.

I would doubt that you can come across that kind of set in the next 3 drafts.

[exodus]

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AHF said

"That said, you could still conclude that Yi doesn't have a high upside and not be racist. "

Maybe if you were'nt so busy googling pictures you could read the thread before you make dumb comments.

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Speaking of dumb comments yours takes the cake. AHF was making a hypothetical statement which is something that is apparently over your head.

First of all you left out the first part of AHF’s post

“thesheedera hasn't said that. In fact, I think he has acknowledged Yi's upside.

That is why you owe him an apology.”

He did not say that Yi has no upside and neither did anyone else.

If i said "someone can call Shaq dumb without being racist" does that mean I think Shaq is dumb? Anyone with a brain knows the answer is no but apparently you don't.

[TroyMcClure]

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AHF said

"That said, you could still conclude that Yi doesn't have a high upside and not be racist. "

Maybe if you were'nt so busy googling pictures you could read the thread before you make dumb comments.

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If you read that in context to mean that I believe that Yi has no upside rather than as saying that a hypothetical person could conclude Yi does not have upside based on something other than race then I don't know what to tell you. I can't imagine how you find this confusing.

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I haven't read everything, but how could a reasonable person, who's picked up a basketball in his life, say Yi does not have MAJOR upside? Who could say that? No one with any credibility. From a talent standpoint, he can do more things than any other player in this draft except Durant. Maybe more than him. The worst I've heard is 4th hand stuff about Del Harris saying he was a first rounder but not a top pick. I like Del Harris, but to my knowledge he has never been involved with drafting and team building. Or winning championships.