Convince me Horford can be our CENTER!

[exodus]

Quote:

---

Since you understand the weaknesses of small sample, why do you go nuts over the Minnesota game without following the game live? That PER has more weight than your 6/7 mantra.

---

Wrong.AJ is giving up an opponents PER of 21.8. yet the Hawks give up 7.7 fewer ppg when he plays.Salim gives up an opponents PER of 13.7 which is good, yet the team gives up 10 ppg more when he plays. Like i said the PER and +/- stats have no relevance in a small sample size.

Quote:

---

Haven't you seen enough of Horford's defense to reallize that he has slowed down opponent centers to a certain degree?

---

The only guys i have seen him slow down are Okafor and Wilcox. Maxiell, Garnett, Jefferson, haywood... that's another story.

[Peoriabird]

Quote:

---

Maxiell, Garnett, Jefferson, haywood... that's another story.

---

Haywood had those hof type numbers of 13 points and 6 reboundsMaxiell 15/8Garnett and Jefferson are power forwardsPerkins is the starting center for Boston and scored 4 points 7 rebounds

[coachx]

Quote:

---

Haven't you seen enough of Horford's defense to reallize that he has slowed down opponent centers to a certain degree?

---

The only guys i have seen him slow down are Okafor and Wilcox. Maxiell, Garnett, Jefferson, haywood... that's another story.

---

I have seen enough to say Horford is by far our best, on man, interior defender. 1000 X's better then ZaZa. I sat this debate out b/c I would have only been repeating myself from earlier post. Now that specific games are being brought up I can actually comment without being a "broken record."Detroit Game:Maxielle was matched up vs. Josh Smith for the 90% of that game. I still have it on the DVR if you have to see this to believe it. Smith is at fault for Maxielle going wild on us much more then the rookie, Horford.Washington Game:Haywood had 11 first quarter points and finished the game with 13 against us. I was at that game. It was a 2:00 day game that was not on TV due to NFL Sundays. So to comment on this game you had to have been there to really know what happened (you were probably there too). I would not call holding your opponent to a 13 point game with only 2 points after the 1st quarter a horrible performance by a rookie, Horford. Our rookie got taken to school for a quarter but then made adjustments to shut Heywood down. Especailly in his 9th game ever.(The whole team slept walk through the 1st half of that game.)Minnesota Game:Jefferson would dominate 95% of people in the NBA if he was free to post up without double teams. This game was not on TV and no, I did not go to Minnesota to see it. So I really can only comment on the AJC reports that the team did not implement the game plan to double team Jefferson in the post ,(like every team does), until the 2nd half.Boston Game:Garnett scored 30 points on our rookie, Horford ! Oh know the sky is falling, we drafted a bust at #3 ! To hold a rookie at fault for not dominating Garnett in their 1st matchup (Horford's 8th game) is a pretty brutal critique coming from anybody, even some one with an agenda. Especially considering Garnette splits time at center and PF. Its not like Horford was on him for the whole game any way.I am really more interested to see how Horford plays the dominate C/ PFs in the league in the 2nd matchup vs. one another much more then their first matchup (especially when it falls in the first month of the season).

[exodus]

Quote:

---

Haywood had those hof type numbers of 13 points and 6 rebounds

---

Actually he had 12 rebounds including 6 on offense.

Quote:

---

Maxiell 15/8

---

In 25 minutes. He is averaging 7/5 on the season. Horford had 3 pts in 36 minutes.

Quote:

---

Garnett and Jefferson are power forwards

---

And Hoford was guarding both. Smith was on Perkins.I remember being pissed when i saw them put Horford on Garnet and they didn't change all game. At least against Minny they had the sense to start doubling.

[exodus]

Quote:

---

Maxielle was matched up vs. Josh Smith for the 90% of that game.

---

No he wasn't. Not only was Maxiel scoring on Horford but also was clowing him on the other end when Horford tried to post him up.

Quote:

---

I was at that game. It was a 2:00 day game that was not on TV due to NFL Sundays.

---

yes it was. I live in MD and got the local broadcast here. Not to mention it was also on LP.

Haywood got 6 offensive rebounds that game. he hasn't gotten close to that since.

Fortunately the Wizards stopped passing him the ball after the first quarter.

Quote:

---

To hold a rookie at fault for not dominating Garnett in their 1st matchup

---

Nice strawman. I never said anything even remotely like that.

What concerned me more than the points was the 18 rebounds after 3 quarters WTF.

Quote:

---

Its not like Horford was on him for the whole game any way.

---

he was on him the whole time he was in the game.

[jerrywest]

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Since you understand the weaknesses of small sample, why do you go nuts over the Minnesota game without following the game live? That PER has more weight than your 6/7 mantra.

---

Wrong.AJ is giving up an opponents PER of 21.8. yet the Hawks give up 7.7 fewer ppg when he plays.Salim gives up an opponents PER of 13.7 which is good, yet the team gives up 10 ppg more when he plays. Like i said the PER and +/- stats have no relevance in a small sample size.

Quote:

---

Haven't you seen enough of Horford's defense to reallize that he has slowed down opponent centers to a certain degree?

---

The only guys i have seen him slow down are Okafor and Wilcox. Maxiell, Garnett, Jefferson, haywood... that's another story.

---

Does that prove that PER of 12 games is a worse indicator than box-score of one game? Especially when you have no idea what happened in that game.Smoove came out and apologized about how atrocious he was guarding Maxiell. Why do you keep putting that on Horford?Hawks came out with zero energy on Washington and Minnesota and played like they didn't care. It wasn't like Haywood went Hakeep in the first quarter. The ball just came his way and he scored. After 12 minutes he disappeared. Can't go nuts on Horfy for that. NBA players have occasionally have small outbursts, especially when their opponent come out with low energy.I blame Woody for Jefferson's outburst. Jefferson on the other hand, did play like a superstar. All Woody had to do was to watch a game tape of Wolves and he'd have known what to do. I guess he's just lazy and waited till half time to make any adjustment. Garnett is Garnett. What can you do. I am surprised TD, Shaq didn't go nuts on Horfy. Shaq went nuts on Zaza but was huffing and puffing from running after Horfy. You say TD just didn't care when Garnett just did. Double standard. Give credit where credit is due.

[exodus]

Quote:

---

I was at that game. It was a 2:00 day game that was not on TV due to NFL Sundays.

---

Here is the Wizards game thread. a bunch of us were watching it. click

[jerrywest]

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

No. Horford was all over the court playing a total game.

---

Hopefully his next "total game" will include more points and rebounds. he keeps putting up 6/7 i will have to start calling him Shelford.

---

Hopefully, but when was the last time Shelden had a total game?Horf went 3/4 75% most of it from offensive rebounds. He got 4 offensive rebounds in the game. Nobody was setting him up for shots, nor was he getting any plays called for him.Hawks and Wolves had 37 rebounds each, but Hawks basically outrebounded Wolves if you go by % (which is better) because we had 4 more offensive rebounds. It was a group effort as MW+JC had 12 rebounds. Not like the other team overpowered Horf+Smoove. Wolves funneled rebounds to Jefferson.You are looking at the numbers at the surface level. A couple of Marvin's early shots didn't fall in the first half and he was also out of the line up when the hawks blew them away, since Chillz+Smoove+Horf were playing awesome. However, Marvin was the one who started the run when he out scored Wolves 8-0 early 3rd quarter. If you just look at the stat you won't understand it. One SmooveNameSake fan started bashing Marvin at the end of the game in the game-thread and ended up apologizing because she just looked at the stats. Its hard to understand anything from numbers alone unless the numbers are sufficiently large.

---

So when did Shelden play a total game?

[exodus]

Quote:

---

You say TD just didn't care when Garnett just did. Double standard. Give credit where credit is due.

---

I did give credit to Horford for playing D on Duncan when they were matched up. But that game was over in the 3rd quarter. The big mismatch was Parker against AJ and they exploited it. In the Boston game the big mismatch was KG against Horford and they exploited it the same way.

Quote:

---

Does that prove that PER of 12 games is a worse indicator than box-score of one game?

---

Correct. Those stats have no relevance to anything this early in the season. A box score of 1 quarter shows more than those PER stats do now.

[exodus]

Quote:

---

So when did Shelden play a total game?

---

He plays a total game all the time if playing a total game doesn't include points, rebounds or defense. A better question would be when was the last time Shelden played 32 minutes in a game. It hasn't happened yet this year. I wonder how the board would react if Shelden was guarding someone who scored 19 in the first half without missing a shot.

[coachx]

I do wish the Washingtom game would have been televised out side of Maryland so the ATL fans could have seen it on TV. Glad you could watch that one on MD. It was such an awful game. I only went b/c it was not televised in the local Atlanta area due to NFL football being too much competition.Do you honestly not remember Maxielle and Smith going at one another. They were "clowning'' on one another. Smith would block Maxielle then Maxielle would block Smith, then they would score on each other in between blocks. I can recall this quite vividly. (Maybe b/c I have it DVR and watched the 4th quarter of that game probably 10 times.)The whole team played like crap vs, Washinton. I think we were shooting 29% at half time. (If Phippips arena kept accurate stats). When shoot like that their are a lot of rebounds to be had. That game the effort was not there from he whole team.

[jerrywest]

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

I was at that game. It was a 2:00 day game that was not on TV due to NFL Sundays.

---

Here is the Wizards game thread. a bunch of us were watching it. click

---

Before Horfy went out (for Zaza) in the 1st quarter, he had 5 pts, 3 rebounds and he drew 2 fouls from Brenden Haywood. Nothing big deal about that game. The ball just bounced Brenden's way early and after the first quarter he just sucked. Why are you going nuts about that?

[exodus]

Quote:

---

I do wish the Washingtom game would have been televised out side of Maryland so the ATL fans could have seen it on TV

---

Anyone with LP could watch it. A bunch of people here did. I already posted the game thread.

Quote:

---

They were "clowning'' on one another. Smith would block Maxielle then Maxielle would block Smith, then they would score on each other in between blocks.

---

But those weren't scores. I remember Horford doing the same thing when Maxiel tried to dunk on him. Horford went for the block but got called for the foul. And it was pretty sad watching Horford trying to back down and score on maxiel.

[jerrywest]

Quote:

---

I do wish the Washingtom game would have been televised out side of Maryland so the ATL fans could have seen it on TV. Glad you could watch that one on MD.

---

Everybody watched it. Someone posted a temporary link.

[exodus]

Quote:

---

Why are you going nuts about that?

---

I didn't go nuts. I just mentioned it along with the other games where Horfords defense was weak. Zaza only played 7 minutes all game. I doubt he is the reason haywood got 6 offensive rebounds.

[jerrywest]

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

You say TD just didn't care when Garnett just did. Double standard. Give credit where credit is due.

---

I did give credit to Horford for playing D on Duncan when they were matched up. But that game was over in the 3rd quarter. The big mismatch was Parker against AJ and they exploited it. In the Boston game the big mismatch was KG against Horford and they exploited it the same way.

Quote:

---

Does that prove that PER of 12 games is a worse indicator than box-score of one game?

---

Correct. Those stats have no relevance to anything this early in the season. A box score of 1 quarter shows more than those PER stats do now.

---

Why? Just because you say so? I can show a quarter when Selim scored 20+ pts. or a playoff game when AJ scored 40 pts.

[jerrywest]

Quote:

---

I doubt he is the reason haywood got 6 offensive rebounds.

---

You should be 2/3rd as excited when Horford got 4 offensive rebounds against a rebounding machine named Jefferson.

[oiatlhawksfan]

I've watched some Grizzles games, and from what i've seen from Conley,is that he'll be solid, but those numbers mean nothing cause most of his damages has been done in garbage time. Horford in garbage time, would be putting up monster numbers.

[exodus]

Quote:

---

Why? Just because you say so?

---

No because the PER and +/- stats are supposed to aggree with each other and i already showed you two examples where they contradicted each other completely (AJ and Salim).Not only that the PER numbers are completely different depending on what page you look at. Here Josh Smith's opponent PER is showing as 15.0.http://www.82games.com/0708/0708ATL.HTMHere it shows his opponent PER at 22http://www.82games.com/0708/07ATL9C.HTM

[exodus]

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

I doubt he is the reason haywood got 6 offensive rebounds.

---

You should be 2/3rd as excited when Horford got 4 offensive rebounds against a rebounding machine named Jefferson.

---

Kind of tough to be excited when he got outrebounded 16-7.