Convince me Horford can be our CENTER!

[exodus]

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When you say Horford isn't significantly better than Shelden, I wonder if we are watching the same games.

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So do I. Horford is averaging 8.5 pts in 32 minutes. That sucks, no way around it. He rebounds well but i have no doubt that Shelden could get a lot of rebounds if he played 32 minutes per game. Last year Shelden was our best rebounder on a per 40 minute basis. Nobody else was even close. Defensively they both struggle with bigger players. Horford has a higher reach and better hops so he can get more blocks. Shelden is stronger and can hold his position better against bigger players. Offensively Horford is better down low while Shelden has a better J and is better at the ft line. The only way there will be a big difference between the two is if Horford becomes an effective scorer.

[TexasPete]

Horford simply can't be an effective scorer until JJ and Smoove start moving the basketball. Horford and Marvin can both get frozen out for long periods and thats on Woody. We are still basically shooting jumpers. Horford is a gifted passer and as he progresses as a player I'm hoping we run more of the offense through him because he has great instincts at knowing where the ball needs to go.I was not a Horford fan, but I am now. He will be a great team basketball player for us during the next decade. Plus, he's highly intelligent. I see glimpses of a great low post player and Shelden isn't fit to carry his water. Shelden has no upside at all while Horford has a ton. These two guys are like two ships passing in the night.I do think Woody should play Shelly a little more and that he can be serviceable. But there isn't one GM in the league who would take Shelden over Horford. Not a one.

[exodus]

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But there isn't one GM in the league who would take Shelden over Horford. Not a one.

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True but it is also a fact that Sheldens per 40 numbers last season (with a bad shoulder) are very comparable to what Horford is doing now. I would bet that Horford is getting outscored by every rookie in the top 10 rankings on a per 40 basis. he needs to step it up. And given his play so far i can certainly understand other players being reluctant to pass to him.

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Horford simply can't be an effective scorer until JJ and Smoove start moving the basketball.

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Smoove didn't even play against Seatle, they had an undersized front line and Horford played 53 minutes. yet he only made 2 baskets.

[Nicholasp27]

yeah, i'd be reluctant to give it to the big man in the post who scores over 50% of the time when he gets a shot off and gets fouled another 18.4% of the time...they should NOT be anywhere near reluctant to give horford the ballhe's only getting 6.7 attempts per game, which is far too few for a low post guy who draws fouls and scores at a high clipalso, about shaq/zo...doesn't matter that they weren't in foul trouble...offensive fouls are TURNOVERS...causing those 2 on those guys instead of giving up the basket was FOUR points in a game that we won by 2

[exodus]

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when he gets a shot off

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That is a key issue.

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gets fouled another 18.4% of the time...

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A mixed blessing when you shoot 63% from the line.

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offensive fouls are TURNOVERS...causing those 2 on those guys instead of giving up the basket was FOUR points in a game that we won by 2

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I didn't realize that turnovers automatically equal points. If they do then think about how many points Horford has given up so far this season on his turnovers. And how exactly did Horford entice them to elbow him in thehead? Speaking of points how many did Horford score in that game? i forgot.

[Nicholasp27]

i said him causing them to off foul INSTEAD of allowing them to score = 4 pointsi gave the two sides...horford did the good thing by getting them to commit an offensive foul...the opposite side woulda been letting them score...4 point swing from one to the otherhe did the former, so they scored 4 less points than the latter

[Nicholasp27]

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when he gets a shot off

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That is a key issue.

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no, i'm talking about when not fouledif he gets blocked, then he got a shot off and it goes against his fg%he has >.500 fg% so he's efficient on the blockhe also draws fouls so that helps the team as well; even if he misses the shots 40% of the time, he still makes them 60% AND helps get the other big guy in foul trouble, which is VERY VERY valuable to the teamfor instance, he got okafor in foul trouble; bobcats' coach even commented on how horford got okafor in foul trouble

[Nicholasp27]

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Speaking of points how many did Horford score in that game? i forgot.

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u don't win by scoring points...u win by scoring more points than your opponentthus, preventing 4 points of ur opponent is the same as scoring 4 points yourself

[atlien]

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Horford isn't doing much better than Shelden was this time last year. he is just playing more minutes.

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This is what gets me. Sometimes you just gotta watch the games and actually SEE how players are performing (and not run to 82games.com or any other statistical site... and even when you do that, Horford owns Shelly, but anyways...)If you haven't seen that Horford is clearly outperforming Shelly (both this year and last year) then that means:A) You're not watching the gamesB) You are watching the games, but arent paying close enough attention to Horfordc) You lack the ability to accuraretly judge player performance.And say what you want, you absolutely, positively cannot actually say that Horford is not a much better player than Shelly already, and is a MUCH better prospect going foward. You lose all credibility in my eyes if you actually want to argue that Horford isn't doing better than Shelden Williams.

[exodus]

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i said him causing them to off foul INSTEAD of allowing them to score = 4 points

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He didn't cause them to foul. It isn't like he ran in to take a charge on the fast break. He was just standing there and got clocked in the head when Shaq turned.

[jerrywest]

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Horford is averaging 8.5 pts in 32 minutes. That sucks, no way around it.

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If you are a rookie who gets less than 7 shots a game despite averaging 3 offensive rebounds, you know you are way down the pecking order. He is making half of his shots(40/81). Its too early to tell how good he'll be and he has already shown improvements.

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He rebounds well but i have no doubt that Shelden could get a lot of rebounds if he played 32 minutes per game. Last year Shelden was our best rebounder on a per 40 minute basis. Nobody else was even close.

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I don't recall Hawks players calling Shelden a "beast" in practices. Obviously, Horford dominates the boards there.

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Defensively they both struggle with bigger players. Horford has a higher reach and better hops so he can get more blocks. Shelden is stronger and can hold his position better against bigger players.

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Shelden is slightly stronger if you go by the combine, I don't know if he is stronger at this time or in game situations. Horford's speed and athleticism leaves Shelden in the dust.

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Offensively Horford is better down low while Shelden has a better J and is better at the ft line.

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Both are shooting .611 FT%. Horford's J looks smoother, and Shelden's J look like Charles Oakley's. My nba/horizon isn't working. What's their fg% outside the box?

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The only way there will be a big difference between the two is if Horford becomes an effective scorer.

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Even if they score & rebound the same, there is a big difference in them - in passing, in dribbling, in running, in blocked shots, in contesting shots, with loose balls, with hustling, with team-chemistry, with tiring their opponents ... wait till Horford learns the NBA game.

[jerrywest]

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i said him causing them to off foul INSTEAD of allowing them to score = 4 points

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He didn't cause them to foul. It isn't like he ran in to take a charge on the fast break. He was just standing there and got clocked in the head when Shaq turned.

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Did you see the game. To my surprise, he fought for positions with Shaq to take that foul out of Shaq. He had a much harder time with Alonzo's dancing. I doubt he had seen moves like that before. Even then he made Alonzo commit an offensive foul once. This kid has something special in him.

[exodus]

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I don't recall Hawks players calling Shelden a "beast" in practices. Obviously, Horford dominates the boards there.

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That is just speculation. I really don't care what they do in practice anyway.

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Both are shooting .611 FT%

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LOL Shelden is hardly playing this year. Last year he shot 76% with a bad shoulder that was wrapped.Horford shot 60% in college from the line. Doesn't look like he has improved so far.

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in passing, in dribbling, in running, in blocked shots, in contesting shots, with loose balls, with hustling, with team-chemistry, with tiring their opponents ...

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LOL looks like you are still drinking the Kool Aid. Jefferson had 23/16, Horford 6/7. Maybe Jefferson was tired from lifting his arms to grab all those rebounds. The biggest come from behind victory the Hawks had last year was in Denver when they put Shelden at C for the whole 4th quarter and made up a 20 pt deficit.

[exodus]

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This kid has something special around him.

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It's called hype and it doesn't last.

[Guest Walter]

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This kid has something special around him.

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It's called hype and it doesn't last.

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...and frankly, I don't see how he got it. That NCAA title was a team effort. Al is a good, prototypical NBA Pf, but he isn't an NBA center and he is does not have superstar potential nor is he a mismatch advantage no matter where you play him (much less at center).

Horford was "the player most like SW" in this year's draft, the good and bad of it. I wish we learned from our mistakes.

W

[jerrywest]

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I don't recall Hawks players calling Shelden a "beast" in practices. Obviously, Horford dominates the boards there.

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That is just speculation. I really don't care what they do in practice anyway.

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What speculation. Didn't you read what Josh Smith said in AJC? Ask Sekou. Besides, Horford is not only doing it in practice only, despite his inexperience, he penetrated the top 10 list in rebounds in the first month of his rookie year. How do you ignore that?

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Both are shooting .611 FT%

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LOL Shelden is hardly playing this year. Last year he shot 76% with a bad shoulder that was wrapped.Horford shot 60% in college from the line. Doesn't look like he has improved so far.

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Even if Shelden's FT% goes up, Horford draws so much more fouls that he'll score much more free throw pts and will help the team from the line a lot more than SW. You care about the minor things more when it supports your cause. Look at the fouls Horford will draw that Shelden won't. Look at the extra points he'll score simply because he'll be on the line so much more than Shelden.

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in passing, in dribbling, in running, in blocked shots, in contesting shots, with loose balls, with hustling, with team-chemistry, with tiring their opponents ...

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LOL looks like you are still drinking the Kool Aid. Jefferson had 23/16, Horford 6/7. Maybe Jefferson was tired from lifting his arms to grab all those rebounds. The biggest come from behind victory the Hawks had last year was in Denver when they put Shelden at C for the whole 4th quarter and made up a 20 pt deficit.

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What Kool Aid. I wanted Yi. When Horford's TO was up, I was opening giving him hell. I don't know if he'll ever be a go to scorer. Nevertheless, he has impressed me a lot with his all around game and intelligence.Wolves, particularly Jefferson and Employee #8 came in superhot early that night. Hawks had no energy and they were not double teaming Jefferson early. Woody takes time to understand whats going on. The blame can be shared by all. Horford outplayed Jefferson in the second half. I remember that Denver game. Horford contributed more in the last two come from behind wins than Shelden did in all of the comebacks last season.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

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The biggest come from behind victory the Hawks had last year was in Denver when they put Shelden at C for the whole 4th quarter and made up a 20 pt deficit.

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The Hawks switched to a zone defense in that game, around the 8 - 9 minute mark. Salim, Lue, JJ, Smoove, and Shelden were on the floor.Shelden deflected passes, rebounded the ball well that quarter, and made the game-winning play at the end.His stat line?7 points ( 2-3 FG . . 3-5 FT )3 rebounds4 stealsIf you just look at the box score at his stats, he didn't do much, other than the steals. If you watched the game, you'd see that he had a tremendous impact in that game, especially in the 4th quarter.And that's basically what you have to do with Horford. He's not going to put up big numbers statistically, so you have to see the effect he has on games. So far, I'd give him a grade of B, for the job he's done at center for us.Without Horford, we could EASILY be 2 - 9 right now, instead of 5 - 7. Easily. His work on the boards is one of the key reasons why this season isn't a total disaster right now.While he definitely needs to be better offensively, he's been more than solid on the defensive end. But with like everybody in this league, it's hard to stop or even slow down good to great offensive players. I'm not going to bash him for not slowing down KG or Al Jefferson, because honestly, both of those guys are having all-star caliber years to this point.As far as Shelden vs Horford. It's Horford hands down. To me, when you watch Horford play, he just plays smarter and harder than Shelden. Horford can do more things more efficiently as a player, than Shelden.What I want to see, is if Shelden can step up his game to finally put ZaZa deep on the bench. Horford is doing this year to ZaZa, what I thought Shelden could do to ZaZa last year, and that is take minutes away from him. While Woody will still affectionally start ZaZa at times, ZaZa isn't the one finishing games on most nights . . it's Horford. Eventually, ZaZa will be completely phased out, especially if he continues to struggle offensively.

[jerrywest]

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This kid has something special around him.

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It's called hype and it doesn't last.

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...and frankly, I don't see how he got it. That NCAA title was a team effort. Al is a good, prototypical NBA Pf, but he isn't an NBA center and he is does not have superstar potential nor is he a mismatch advantage no matter where you play him (much less at center).

Horford was "the player most like SW" in this year's draft, the good and bad of it. I wish we learned from our mistakes.

W

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I wonder why Tyrone Hill said Horford will be a perennial all-star in 2-3 years.

[exodus]

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If you watched the game, you'd see that he had a tremendous impact in that game, especially in the 4th quarter.And that's basically what you have to do with Horford.

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That is just it. I am not seeing that big impact from Horford. He is a liability on offense and defensively he has given up big games not just to Garnett and Jefferson but also to Haywood and Maxiell.I don't expect him to shut down KG or Jefferson but it would be nice if he was at least a speed bump.

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As far as Shelden vs Horford. It's Horford hands down. To me, when you watch Horford play, he just plays smarter and harder than Shelden.

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Shelden hasn't gotten the opporutities that Horford has had to play big minutes. That makes a big difference. I just can't get excited about a guy who is putting up points like Kwame but can't defend as well as Kwame.

[TexasPete]

We cannot be a good defensive team with ZaZa on the court. When your big man is an open door to that degree it kills your defense. I'm not sure why he isn't better on D...effort or skill level???But, it seems that the Euros really play great offensive basketball where they utilize all 5 guys to fullest advantage. Most Euros play defense only as a last resort whereas on offense they are very fundamentally sound.But, if Shelly can start playing with toughness on the defensive end then I would play him more than Z.