What if Horford is better than Smoove . .?

[TheNorthCydeRises]

. . from DAY 1?

This isn't out of the realm of possibility. In fact, this may already be true.

Horford wasn't considered a top 3 - 5 prospect for nothing. In most drafts, he either goes 1 or 2 because teams always covet a big man with multiple skills. While most of us hope that Horford can get us somewhere around 11 ppg - 8 rebs - 50% FG, it's not out of the realm of possibility to see this guy go for 16 ppg - 10 rebs - 53% FG in his rookie year. If he proves that he's the best low post offensive option we have ( by far ) on the team, he'll receive a lot of touches on the blocks. A LOT.

We all hope that Horford can play center, because it will enable us to keep Smoove at PF, where he's most effective as a player. That'll also be the best case scenario for the Hawks, because it improves our frontline talent tremendously. But if Horford has trouble at center, but can play PF much better than Smoove, we might have a problem.

Our options would be:

1) to put Smoove at center, and hope his athleticism can overcome the weight differences on the inside and his issue with toughness.

2) to put Smoove at SF, where he's much less efficient as a player, but maybe a more electrifying one, especially on the fast break.

3) to bring Smoove off the bench, as a "catalyst" type player that plays the 3, 4, and 5 spots, ala Robert Horry.

Option 1: Play Smoove at center

I've been saying this for the past year, because of two things.

1) . . because of his athleticism, he's able to do things around the rim at his size, that maybe only a guy like Ben or Gerald Wallace can. Smoove's problem will be toughness, and if he's willing to bang on the inside.

2) . . his offensive game is much better in the high post, than in the low post. Whether it's settling for the 15 - 20 foot jumper from straight on ( which he can make ), or taking his man off the dribble and getting to the rim, Smoove's game is much like . . dare I say it . . BORIS DIAW'S in Phoenix.

Diaw's rise to "stardom" began as soon as Phoenix started playing him at the 5 ( out of sheer necessity ), and realizing that he can use his quickness to take advantage of the slow centers in the league. Diaw is an "elbow" player, that likes to either take the 15- 20 footer from the left or right elbow, or take his man off the dribble and get to the rim. Smoove's offensive game is along those same lines.

Option 2: Play Smoove at SF

To me, this is the NIGHTMARE option not only for that kid, but for the Hawks as well.

It's been well documented on this board on how he's a much different player at SF than he is at PF. He settles for too many jumpers that he can't make. He's a little more passive on the defensive end, especially when guarding quicker, more athletic SFs. And he's less active overall, because he's not around the action at SF, like he is when he plays PF.

Offensively, there is one MAJOR perk for having him play SF. And that is his ability to run the break and finish out in the open floor. And this has everything . . EVERYTHING to do with Acie Law, and his ability to get the ball to people in the right spots.

It'll also mean that Smoove, after grabbing a defensive rebound, would have to give the ball up to Acie, then fill the wing on the break. As exciting as Smoove's dunks are right now, his "elevation" game could be taken to another level, with a PG like Law getting him the ball on the break.

Of course, this can also be achieved with Smoove playing the 4 or the 5. But he'd get more chances at the 3. And these chances are also dependent upon if the Hawks become a vastly improved defensive team.

Playing Smoove at the 3, Horford at the 4, and a guy like ZaZa and Shelden at the 5, also means something else. And just by the sentence, you should be able to figure it out. It'll mean that Marvin Williams isn't progressing nearly fast enough to even beat out Smoove at SF. That'll be a major red flag for Marvin, and his future with us.

Option 3: Smoove as an "off the bench catalyst"

Maybe this is the nightmare scenario.

Smoove, still erratic as a player offensively, undisciplined defensively, and becoming more tempermental toward Woody, is demoted to the bench because Horford, Marvin, and ZaZa are playing very well at the 3, 4, and 5 spots.

This doesn't necessarily mean that Smoove won't play 30 + minutes a game, because he very well could in this role. It's just that when he's playing bad, he'll never see the floor. And when he's playing well, he might be in the game at the end.

While this scenario is highly unlikely, don't think that it couldn't happen. It's happening to Andrei Kirilenko right now. That guy was a budding young star 4 years ago. And his skill-set is very similar to Smoove's.

What's happening to AK47, is that the Jazz have been bringing in/drafting better players that are indirectly hampering AK's development as a well-rounded player. This took a full 2.5 years to see the effects, but now we're really seeing it.

3 years ago, when Boozer and Okur first came to the Jazz, AK was hurt 1/2 of the year. The following year, it was Boozer who went down. Last year was really the 1st year that AK, Boozer, and Okur really got to play together for the entire year. The result was catastrophic for AK, who saw his production drop dramatically. And you have to also factor in the rise of Deron Williams, to the demise of AK's "star potential" in Utah.

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When you look at the Hawks right now, I could see that EXACT same thing happening to Smoove, if guys like Horford, Marvin, and even Acie Law play up to their offensive potential. If they do, this will relegate Smoove to a defensive specialist role, that has him only looking for his offense when he's with the 2nd unit, or when he's on the break.

This is an extreme scenario that I hope doesn't happen. But the possibility that this could come about, is all the more reason to WAIT AND SEE what Smoove will show up next season.

Is it the Shawn Kemp-like Smoove, that attacks the rim on offense, and becomes a consistent rebounder on both ends of the floor?

Is it the Rasheed Wallace-like Smoove, that bails other teams out with all of those long jumpers, and brings somewhat of a "can't tell me nothing" attitude that can be viewed as the beginning stages of a locker room "cancer"?

Or is it the Robert Horry-like Smoove, that can do some of everything, but is probably best used as a role player.

One thing is for sure. Smoove's NBA career path depends on what role Smoove wants to excel at. If he commits himself to being an athletic PF that can take people off the dribble, and resist the temptation to take the wide open 22-footer that he can't make, then he has a chance to be a star.

If not, don't expect his current or future coaches to let him get away with playing like that. Especially if guys drafted to upgrade the team like Horford, M. Williams, and Law are playing really well offensively.

[Johnnybravo4]

Or just play Horford at center as planned.

[atlien]

I feel if this happens, and we absolutely CANT play Horford at the 5, than one of Horford, Smoove or Marvin needs to be traded to net a legit, star 5 (Gasol?). Of course, if it is Marvin that is traded, Smoove is playing the 3 (which I dont want to see either) with Horford at the 4. If Horford or Smoove are traded, Marvin stays at the 3 and one of those guys is at the 4.

And, I agree with you that Horford is going to be our best offensive, low-post scorer right off the bat. That just shows how big of a hole that was for us, and how bad we needed Horford.

Im hoping for the best-case though! And that is that Horford CAN play the 5 (I think he can for 20 minutes a night, with maybe 10 at the 4). And that Marvin and Smoove form a forward tandem that we look forward to watching for years to come.

[gsuteke]

then BK has the best crop of under 22 Forwards in the NBA. hands down.

[Johnnybravo4]

Whats wrong with having 2 stud PF's? We aren't the Florida Marlins, we don't need to trade our players just because they got good.

[AtLaS]

If Horford is better than a 16 and 9 PF his rookie season, than he'll easily be able to play center. He's definitely big and strong enough for the position.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Johnny, my concern is mainly on the defensive end. It's kind of like with your boy Salim.

Offensively, Salim may be our most explosive player next to JJ. Defensively, he's better than he used to be, but is still the 2nd worst defending guard on the team ( Lue being the worst ). Because of that, his playing time is cut considerably, and is limited to just being an offensive specialist. His "too small to be a 2-guard, but doesn't have a PG mentality" also hurts him.

There's a reason why Phoenix brings Barbosa off the bench, instead of Raja Bell.

It's going to be very interesting to see who is truly the best offensive and defensive player out of ZaZa, Shelden, Horford, and Smoove. Maybe I should be looking at this from the standpoint of which two players compliment each other best.

No matter who it is, we might be better off as a team if our best defender starts, along with our best offensive player. If that's Smoove and Shelden, so be it. If it's ZaZa and Smoove, so be it. Even if it's Shelden and ZaZa, and those two give us the best chance to win next year, I'm even down with that.

But I wonder what Hawk fans would do, if Woody went with Shelden and Horford on the frontline to start games?

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Well why didn't Karl Malone play center all those years in Utah? LOL . . I broke out my old tape of Game 6 Chicago vs Utah in 1998 ( Jordan's "last" game as a Bull ).

Guess who was the starting center for Utah that game? Take a wild guess. And no, it wasn't Greg Oestertag.

[Iman]

I have no problems with Smoove at SF. He is improving dramatically in his basketball skills and decision making. Just because he plays SF doesn't mean he goes back to jacking up 3's and trying to defend smaller players by letting them go by him and going for backside blocks.

The key is that we currently have two top 15 or so SF's in Marvin and Chillz, whereas Horford and Shelden are unproven. So if we are lucky and Horford is very good then it may cut into Smoove's minutes but he'll still get most of his minutes at PF. Also, since we don't have a solid center, Horford will definitely get minutes at center. I think a Shelden/Horford combo on the court together will work and maybe force Smoove to get more SF minutes by later in the season. Then by 2009, we move Chillz or Marvin for a good center and we have our team set.

[AtLaS]

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Well why didn't Karl Malone play center all those years in Utah? LOL . . I broke out my old tape of Game 6 Chicago vs Utah in 1998 ( Jordan's "last" game as a Bull ).

Guess who was the starting center for Utah that game? Take a wild guess. And no, it wasn't Greg Oestertag.

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That's so crazy because I watched that entire game 2 nights ago. I own the Michael Jordan DVD that has his 5 greatest games and watched it. It was 6'9" Adam Keefe, and yeah Malone was dominating that 1st half.

But again, if Horford is able to put up 16/9 than he'll definitely be able to play center IMO. He's at least an inch taller than Malone and already has a defensive reputation anyway. Also, when Malone played, the center position was stacked, in today's league teams often get away with slightly undersized centers. The league is different than it was 10-15 years ago.

[Zone034life]

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But if Horford has trouble at center, but can play PF much better than Smoove, we might have a problem.

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How is having more talent a problem? People the Hawks won 30 games last season!Thats horrible!More talent is exactly what this roster needs.Depth is essential on a playoff roster.If Sheldon Williams can play minutes at center surely Al Horford can.

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Maybe I should be looking at this from the standpoint of which two players compliment each other best.

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Yes!Yes!Yes! Thats the smartest thing i've heard posted on this message board since i've joined.Why is every post about who is taking whos minutes and not more about who will play well together.Even i've started threads that seperates our players in some way.

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Smoove, still erratic as a player offensively, undisciplined defensively, and becoming more tempermental toward Woody, is demoted to the bench because Horford, Marvin, and ZaZa are playing very well at the 3, 4, and 5 spots.

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Excuse me folks for being a little disturbed right now but I am. Why is it that our 17th picks game is broken down to a tee and he is often critisized for his flaws when we have a #6,#2 and #5 pick that he has clearly outplayed?Why aren't there more people saying Josh Childress isn't better than J-Smoove even though he went to college 4 years and was drafted higher.Or Marvin Williams doesn't average more or doesn't seem interested in doing so than smooth?Why does the #5 pick in the draft average less rebounds and blocked shots than the 17th pick when thats what he was drafted to do?Since Josh Smith arrived he has been critisized and over analyzed while these other cats seem to get a pass from some of you. Is it because you think he lacks high basketball IQ or do you think he is to flashy?Whatever the case the guys goes out and runs people down and blocks shots for a horrible team and gives great effort.Sometimes you forget Marvin Williams is even on the court.

Why would you trade the best of all your draft picks so far just because you drafted someone who could eventually help,not unseat,him and Joe Johnson reach the playoffs. If anything Marvin,Childress and Sheldon need to step there games up.These three are the ones who have shown the least promise NOT JOSH SMITH!!!!!I'm not saying he is beyond reproach but I am saying of all the young players he has earned the right to stay with this franchise for years to come.Potential is nothing if you do not have the desire to reach it.

If I hear another break down of minutes my head will explode! If Manu Ginoboli can come off the bench for the champions any player(outside of Joe Johnson) should be willing to play less minutes if it means more wins on the Hawks!Look at team USA in the FIBA tournament.These all stars and great players play no more than 20 minutes and no ones complaining.Mike Woodson should take a page out of Mike ############'s book and get his players to play for the team not themselves. We as Hawks fans have become fixated on how to tear our team apart and not thinking how we can make this team better!

[Diesel]

Many of them don't know it, but they are. When they start to recite that you can just play this guy at whatever position is open, they have no respect for position (like BK) and they don't understand how important positions are to winning.

Positions are not just a formalism. There's a definite skillset required to play some positions.

Horford is a PF. He's almost the epitome of PF. The textbook definition of PF. Many people say "play him at 5"... not understading that those two skillsets are different and in some way you diminish Horford's game by playing him there.

Smoove is a position not yet determined but his desire seems to be Sf. In order to get on the court, he has played PF.. but he has no post moves and very weak post defense.

It is a very strong possibility that Horford is a better PF than Smoove. Very strong... The problem is that the BK Disciples will then start to point and say play Smoove at the 4 and play Horford at the 5. They can line up at those positions, but it's just as silly as playing Karl Malone at Center and playing Loul Deng at PF. Eventually, somebody has to come in a make the right players and their skillsets in the right positions.

[Diesel]

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Excuse me folks for being a little disturbed right now but I am. Why is it that our 17th picks game is broken down to a tee and he is often critisized for his flaws when we have a #6,#2 and #5 pick that he has clearly outplayed?Why aren't there more people saying Josh Childress isn't better than J-Smoove even though he went to college 4 years and was drafted higher.Or Marvin Williams doesn't average more or doesn't seem interested in doing so than smooth?Why does the #5 pick in the draft average less rebounds and blocked shots than the 17th pick when thats what he was drafted to do?

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In the case of Smoove vs. Chillz.

The things that Smoove does well, he does very well. He blocks shots very well. He finishes very well. He is very enthusiastic. However, the things that he doesn't do very well, he doesn't even do good.

Chillz on the other hand doesn't nothing very well, but he does everything well. His defense is not great, but it's good. His offense is not great but it's good. His shooting is ugly, but it goes in. Chillz has mastered being consistent at everything but he's not dominant at anything.

So in comparison, Smoove is always working on some part of his game because he is deficient. Chillz is not really deficient at any part of his game, he's just not dominating at any part of his game either.

Smoove vs. Shelden

Well, the ballots are still out on Shelden. For as many people who hate Shelden because he went to Duke or because he's not what they expected, Shelden still had a good year. He was no Roy, but he still led all rookies in rebounding. He still put up double doubles up and down the stretch. I think a lot of people will be interested in what happens this year. Without the injury and with more understanding of how he fits, what type of player will Shelden be? He could be a 16/10 C... That won't be so bad.

Skillwise, his blocks didn't translate. His rebounds did. His scoring has not yet. However, it's only after year one. I don't think any player can just step in the NBA and eveerything translate and they never miss a beat.

Smoove vs. Marvin

I can write a thesis on all the wrongs of Marvin. However, the truth is Marvin is about where Marvin will be. In my opinion, he is the product of hype and the hype keeps going. Why isn't Marvin looked at with the discerning eye the way that Smoove is? The answer is that Hawks fans are truly embarrassed about Marvin. So many were on the Marvin Bandwagon and that's a lot of crow to eat. So instead of calling a spade a spade in the case of Marvin, people would rather attack anyone who dares to say "Isn't that a spade"...

[Nicholasp27]

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Horford is a PF. He's almost the epitome of PF. The textbook definition of PF. Many people say "play him at 5"... not understading that those two skillsets are different and in some way you diminish Horford's game by playing him there.

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that's why he played center for a back2back champ ncaaa team? with a 7'1 guy playing pf? why not vice-versa? maybe because horford is a center?

[Zone034life]

Do you agree that Smoove has accomplished and shown more promise than those three?

-I have heard alot of people say Chillz has good defense.His foot speed is slow and his lateral movement is not very quick.Thats why you will see Jamal Crawford or D-Wade cross him and blow past him.Thats why I believe he is a better prospect at the three.

-The word that comes to mind when it comes to Sheldon is unimpressed.The thing that really turned me off to him last season was his defense.He could not block shots and he didn't foul enough when other teams continously drove in the lane on the Hawks.Thats what I believe Woody's biggest problem was with Sheldon.

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Skillwise, his blocks didn't translate.

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Sheldon was brought in to block shots and be tough in the interior and he did neither last season.Watching his interior defense in the RMR doesn't give me the impression that this season will be any different.The rebounds are nice but if he does not combine that with being a defensive presence then he is a bust in my opinion.

-As for Marvin,if he was a second round pick and he specialized in mid range shooting then that would be great.Unfortunately he was the 2nd overall pick and that is not enough.His draft position and hype dictates that he drive to the basket,rebound well and play at least above average defense.Marvin should be held to the highest standard more than any of the young Hawks players not Smoove.

This is a very important season for all four of these guys.The truth is is that the Hawks don't need all these young players to succeed.This season is an audition of who will be extended and be apart of this team in the future.JJ,Acie and Horford are safe the next two seasons but the young Vets must prove thier worth.Including my boy Smoove!!!!!!

I enjoyed reading your opinion on the players even if they differ from mines.

[AtLaS]

So you think Shelden can play C and be average 16/10, but Horford can't play center? That's absolutely rediculous.

[coachx]

If Horford is better then Smoove it just means we got one heck of a player at #3 in the draft.

One of the two, probably Horford, would grow into a center in today's era.

The big guys in the East like: Bosh, Gasol, J. O'Neil, Okefor, and Howard may not start at center but they play more then 1/2 their minutes at center. Those are the minutes Horford would be playing at the center position.

Horford can guard these PF/C hybrids as good as any one.

[AHF]

Here is the reason, IMO, that Smoove is being most heavily scrutinized right now.

(1) Only Chill and Smoove are up for contracts. Marvin and Shelden don't have to be evaluated right now for purposes of what their future is with the franchise because they are on their rookie deals for another 2-3 years.

(2) Smoove is the only player who has shown that he warrants a big contract extension. No one is heavily scrutinizing Chill because he clearly doesn't deserve anything like 10M/year. With Smoove, everyone (nearly everyone) recognizes he has significant value to the team. However, it takes some careful scrutiny to figure out exactly what that value is. He is worth somewhere between 8M/year and a max contract. Since his worth isn't easy to pinpoint and there is significant risk for getting it wrong, he is being scrutinized very closely right now.

[coachx]

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Many of them don't know it, but they are. When they start to recite that you can just play this guy at whatever position is open, they have no respect for position (like BK) and they don't understand how important positions are to winning.

Positions are not just a formalism. There's a definite skillset required to play some positions.

Horford is a PF. He's almost the epitome of PF. The textbook definition of PF. Many people say "play him at 5"... not understading that those two skillsets are different and in some way you diminish Horford's game by playing him there.

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Then what positions are: Gasol, J. O'Niel, Howard, Bosh, and Okefor. All these guys are very similar to Horford and they all play both PF and Center for succesful teams who have made playoff runs. Most ofthem play more minutes at center then PF.

I don't get your point. All these guys can play either the PF or the Center position succesfully. The specific match up on a given night is all that determines which position best fits their skill set that night.

There are nights Dirk Norwitsky mans the center spot. There are nights Harrington and Bedrinas play center. Horford is perfect for those nights. He can definatly guard these guys better then ZaZa.

Oh ! As previously stated, Horford is our best low post scoring option as well....unless Smoove retained alot for the dream.

[atlien]

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The answer is that Hawks fans are truly embarrassed about Marvin.

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Or it could be that many fans have more reasonable expectations for a 19-year-old kid who was PROJECTED to need a 2-3 year learning curve in the league.

I think you can be much more "embarassed" about a player who is expected to come in and be NBA-ready his first year, and then comes in and looks thoroughly outmatched like your boy Shelly.

But, it's true, it's time for Marv to grow up. Everyone should expect a lot from him now. Before, not so much.