What if Horford is better than Smoove . .?

[exodus]

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As previously stated, Horford is our best low post scoring option as well

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I would say that is jumping the gun. He hasn't scored a point in an NBA game, only averaged 12 ppg in college and didn't exactly light it up in summer league.

If Horford turns out to be better than Smith at the 4 that would certainly be a nice problem to have but i am not holding my breath on that.

[Zone034life]

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Marvin and Shelden don't have to be evaluated right now for purposes of what their future is with the franchise because they are on their rookie deals for another 2-3 years.

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I disagree with this point.The moment you step foot on an NBA floor you are being evaluated.Teams will look at these players tapes in the future to see how they dealt with losing and to see if they want to sign or trade for them.If Billy Knight is not evaluating at all times then he should be fired.What if a Gasol or a Jermaine Oneal becomes available at the trade deadline.His assessment of the talent on his team will be critical in deciding which players stay and which go.Although these players contracts are not up for another year or two I would include either one of them(Marvin,Sheldon) in a trade for Gasol or O'neal this season. So to say they shouldn't be evaluated right now is a very bad mindset to have.When a team wins 30 games there should be evaluating go on all the time to make the team better.And to say Marvin should be given a pass because of his age before showing progress is an excuse.He was #2nd pick in the draft and he is no more than the third or fourth,maybe even lower with Acie and Horford,on the team.He can either improve or be moved for a veteran who can consistently bring numbers and leadership!

[AHF]

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Marvin and Shelden don't have to be evaluated right now for purposes of what their future is with the franchise because they are on their rookie deals for another 2-3 years.

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I disagree with this point.The moment you step foot on an NBA floor you are being evaluated.Teams will look at these players tapes in the future to see how they dealt with losing and to see if they want to sign or trade for them.If Billy Knight is not evaluating at all times then he should be fired.What if a Gasol or a Jermaine Oneal becomes available at the trade deadline.His assessment of the talent on his team will be critical in deciding which players stay and which go.Although these players contracts are not up for another year or two I would include either one of them(Marvin,Sheldon) in a trade for Gasol or O'neal this season. So to say they shouldn't be evaluated right now is a very bad mindset to have.When a team wins 30 games there should be evaluating go on all the time to make the team better.And to say Marvin should be given a pass because of his age before showing progress is an excuse.He was #2nd pick in the draft and he is no more than the third or fourth,maybe even lower with Acie and Horford,on the team.He can either improve or be moved for a veteran who can consistently bring numbers and leadership!

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I didn't mean they shouldn't be evaluated at all or that every player on the roster shouldn't constantly be evaluated by the Hawks staff. Clearly they should. And clearly they have been extensively evaluated on this board over the last two years.

What I meant (and what I think is more fully communicated in my full post from above) was that Smith is at a critical juncture not only for himself but for this team with his RFA year coming up. Marvin and Shelden aren't in that position. It may be fun to try to figure out exactly what Marvin's free agent value is but that doesn't matter as much to a fan as how much Josh Smith's free agent value would be. That team doesn't have to fish or cut bait with Marvin or Shelden right now. We are reaching that point with Smoove.

I think that is the reason so much more focus is on Smith right now - because he is the one who could be our next star, wreck the franchise by leaving if we can't reach a deal or wreck the franchise by signing a cap crippling contract and then going Larry Hughes or Juwon Howard on us.

We should always be ready to make a move and our GM should always have his finger on the pulse of league opinion of our players, but things are coming to a head right now with Josh Smith. Many are afraid to lose him. Many are afraid to overpay him. This leads to a lot of debate and evaluation of him as a player now and in the future.

[DJlaysitup]

I think this is the year Woody/BK will have to make some hard decision early playing-time wise. Most of us figure this is a do-or-die year for them (even with the ownership problem), so they can't afford to be fiddling with the lineup throughout the year. Moreover, the have to put the players on the court that give us the best chance to win now...it's that simple.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

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Many of them don't know it, but they are. When they start to recite that you can just play this guy at whatever position is open, they have no respect for position (like BK) and they don't understand how important positions are to winning.

Positions are not just a formalism. There's a definite skillset required to play some positions.

Horford is a PF. He's almost the epitome of PF. The textbook definition of PF. Many people say "play him at 5"... not understading that those two skillsets are different and in some way you diminish Horford's game by playing him there.

Smoove is a position not yet determined but his desire seems to be Sf. In order to get on the court, he has played PF.. but he has no post moves and very weak post defense.

It is a very strong possibility that Horford is a better PF than Smoove. Very strong... The problem is that the BK Disciples will then start to point and say play Smoove at the 4 and play Horford at the 5. They can line up at those positions, but it's just as silly as playing Karl Malone at Center and playing Loul Deng at PF. Eventually, somebody has to come in a make the right players and their skillsets in the right positions.

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I fully expect Horford to come in and be able to play center for us. I'm just saying that if he's a much better PF than he is a C, and if his production at PF trumps what Smoove can give us there, we might have a problem on our hands in regard to where we should play Smoove. Because in my mind, I don't see Josh Smith, all of a sudden, becoming a guy that can shoot 50% FG from the field. I fully expect that from Horford. But I've always understood where you were coming from, when talking about Horford though.

Case in point to back up what you're saying about Horford.

We all know that Gasol can play C and PF. But Gasol would much rather play the 4, than the 5, especially on defense. Back when Memphis was really starting to get good, their ideal frontline was to have Gasol and Stromile Swift man the 4 & 5 spots.

But it quickly became apparant that while Gasol didn't like playing center, he could play it at a high level if necessary. Not necessarily on the defensive end, but definitely on the offensive end.

But it really mattered where Swift played, because he couldn't play it, unless the team was in running mode. And when it came to the team, Memphis was much better off pairing a big "stiff" that can bang on the inside, defend a little, and rebound ( Lorenzen Wright, Jake Tsakalidis ) alongside Gasol, than pairing him with Stromile.

And like Smoove with us, Stro was the electrifying dunker and shot blocker that Memphis fans loved. Smoove has more desire to be great than Stro does though, so that's what separates the two.

The more I think about this, the more I believe that it isn't cut and dry at all to pencil in either Smoove nor Horford on the frontline. One of them will probably start, but I'm not sure if both will. It all depends on how good of a center Horford is, right from the jump.

Here's something for you D. OBJECTIVELY rank ZaZa, Shelden, Horford, Smoove, Solomon as you see them overall as a player.

Then rank those same players in regard to playing center.

Then rank them in regard to playing PF.

I'd like to see how they would rank.

[Diesel]

There's quite a difference between those guys and Horford. Mainly Size and strength and position training.

Tell me, what skillset does Horford has that makes him an offensive C??

Horford really have not exhibited the footwork or the offensive moves to be a C.

Sure we can just "put him there" out of neccessity... but that doesn't make him a C... Just like putting Diaw at C does not make him one neither. Nor does putting Bosh in the C position make him one.

If you like, we can play JJ at the 5... That wouldn't make him a Center either.

I mean, if you want the best 5 out there...

Speedy, Lue, JJ, JSmoove, and Chillz... at this point, you can make whoever you want to be your 5?? Does that really make them a C?

[Diesel]

I think Shelden is strong enough and has the right skillset to play the position.

I think Horford can play it too... Hell anybody can. I just don't think it's the best position for Horford to play. I think he's a prototypical PF like Karl Malone was. He just needs to work on his offensive moves.

[AtLaS]

Because he benched 5 more reps than Horford while being 2 years older? I'm sure Horford could throw up 25 reps when he's 23 years old.

And exactly what skillset does Shelden have for the C position that Horford doesn't, that also makes up for Horfords' extra 1.5" in height, 3" in reach, and 3" in vertical?

[Diesel]

If we were suddenly able to trade Marvin for Bynum...

Tell me, what's your starting lineup?

[TheNorthCydeRises]

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Marvin and Shelden don't have to be evaluated right now for purposes of what their future is with the franchise because they are on their rookie deals for another 2-3 years.

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I disagree with this point.The moment you step foot on an NBA floor you are being evaluated.Teams will look at these players tapes in the future to see how they dealt with losing and to see if they want to sign or trade for them.If Billy Knight is not evaluating at all times then he should be fired.What if a Gasol or a Jermaine Oneal becomes available at the trade deadline.His assessment of the talent on his team will be critical in deciding which players stay and which go.Although these players contracts are not up for another year or two I would include either one of them(Marvin,Sheldon) in a trade for Gasol or O'neal this season. So to say they shouldn't be evaluated right now is a very bad mindset to have.When a team wins 30 games there should be evaluating go on all the time to make the team better.And to say Marvin should be given a pass because of his age before showing progress is an excuse.He was #2nd pick in the draft and he is no more than the third or fourth,maybe even lower with Acie and Horford,on the team.He can either improve or be moved for a veteran who can consistently bring numbers and leadership!

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I didn't mean they shouldn't be evaluated at all or that every player on the roster shouldn't constantly be evaluated by the Hawks staff. Clearly they should. And clearly they have been extensively evaluated on this board over the last two years.

What I meant (and what I think is more fully communicated in my full post from above) was that Smith is at a critical juncture not only for himself but for this team with his RFA year coming up. Marvin and Shelden aren't in that position. It may be fun to try to figure out exactly what Marvin's free agent value is but that doesn't matter as much to a fan as how much Josh Smith's free agent value would be. That team doesn't have to fish or cut bait with Marvin or Shelden right now. We are reaching that point with Smoove.

I think that is the reason so much more focus is on Smith right now - because he is the one who could be our next star, wreck the franchise by leaving if we can't reach a deal or wreck the franchise by signing a cap crippling contract and then going Larry Hughes or Juwon Howard on us.

We should always be ready to make a move and our GM should always have his finger on the pulse of league opinion of our players, but things are coming to a head right now with Josh Smith. Many are afraid to lose him. Many are afraid to overpay him. This leads to a lot of debate and evaluation of him as a player now and in the future.

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Bingo!

I think the people who want to give Smoove his money right now, want to give it to him on how he played from Feburary until the end of the season . . at POWER FORWARD. Not at SF or at Center. There is no rush to sign this kid right now, especially with the two rookies here. Let Smoove's play set his market value.

To me, it's the same mistake that Phoenix made concerning Diaw.

They were so afraid to lose ANOTHER player, especially one that could play Amare's spot, that they jumped the gun and locked the kid up, before he went onto the market. He played so well in the playoffs 2 years ago, that people thought he was going to be a future All-Star. Now, I bet they're wishing that they waited a little longer.

We have to be very careful with Smoove in these negotiations. Let's see how he ane Horford play together first, before we make a long-term big money commitment to the guy.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

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If we were suddenly able to trade Marvin for Bynum...

Tell me, what's your starting lineup?

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You're hilarious.

Keep Marvin out of the discussion. And no hypothetical trades that won't happen or aren't in the works. Just talk about what we have now.

I'll make it easy for you.

Rank these players 1 - 5 overall as a player. ( ZaZa, Smoove, Horford, Solomon, Shelden )

Then rank them 1 - 5 as to how good of a center each is.

Then do the same 1 - 5 as to how good of a PF each is.

3 easy questions. Stay on topic please .

[jerrywest]

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3 easy questions. Stay on topic please .

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Until Marvin gets traded for Al Harrington, all of Diesel's posts will have one underlying agenda, whether it mentions Marvin's name or not. His rankings will be based on that agenda too.

[Buzzard]

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It is a very strong possibility that Horford is a better PF than Smoove. Very strong... The problem is that the BK Disciples will then start to point and say play Smoove at the 4 and play Horford at the 5. They can line up at those positions, but it's just as

silly

as playing Karl Malone at Center and playing Loul Deng at PF. Eventually, somebody has to come in a make the right players and their skillsets in the right positions.

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Well you can cry all you want (and you probably will for the next decade or so) about Smoove playing the 4 and Horford playing the 5; but I will take the silly ol Suns lineup and their record with Diaw or Amare at the five over your floundering and lottery bound lineup every day.

You call Horford the next Malone; yet he played center for 4 years in college. Shelden is a better choice for center than Horford in your mind. Here is your take; Shelden is Big Ben, Horford is Malone; all we need to do now is trade away Marvin, Chilz, and Acie for Deron is gonna be better than Jason Kidd Williams! I have no idea what game you watch; but I would bet a dollar to a doughnut you never miss your favorite soapoperas...

Give it a rest Diesel. You sound like a spurned woman going through menopause more and more every day. Show a little pride and man up for a damn change!

[Swatguy]

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As previously stated, Horford is our best low post scoring option as well

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I would say that is jumping the gun. He hasn't scored a point in an NBA game, only averaged 12 ppg in college and didn't exactly light it up in summer league.

If Horford turns out to be better than Smith at the 4 that would certainly be a nice problem to have but i am not holding my breath on that.

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Amen

[Swatguy]

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I think this is the year Woody/BK will have to make some hard decision early playing-time wise. Most of us figure this is a do-or-die year for them (even with the ownership problem), so they can't afford to be fiddling with the lineup throughout the year. Moreover, the have to put the players on the court that give us the best chance to win now...it's that simple.

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With a team as ours. With players earning PT. Adjustments will continuefor at least 25 games. Lineups change for many many reasons and are inevitable.

[Zone034life]

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Marvin and Shelden don't have to be evaluated right now for purposes of what their future is with the franchise because they are on their rookie deals for another 2-3 years.

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I disagree with this point.The moment you step foot on an NBA floor you are being evaluated.Teams will look at these players tapes in the future to see how they dealt with losing and to see if they want to sign or trade for them.If Billy Knight is not evaluating at all times then he should be fired.What if a Gasol or a Jermaine Oneal becomes available at the trade deadline.His assessment of the talent on his team will be critical in deciding which players stay and which go.Although these players contracts are not up for another year or two I would include either one of them(Marvin,Sheldon) in a trade for Gasol or O'neal this season. So to say they shouldn't be evaluated right now is a very bad mindset to have.When a team wins 30 games there should be evaluating go on all the time to make the team better.And to say Marvin should be given a pass because of his age before showing progress is an excuse.He was #2nd pick in the draft and he is no more than the third or fourth,maybe even lower with Acie and Horford,on the team.He can either improve or be moved for a veteran who can consistently bring numbers and leadership!

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I didn't mean they shouldn't be evaluated at all or that every player on the roster shouldn't constantly be evaluated by the Hawks staff. Clearly they should. And clearly they have been extensively evaluated on this board over the last two years.

What I meant (and what I think is more fully communicated in my full post from above) was that Smith is at a critical juncture not only for himself but for this team with his RFA year coming up. Marvin and Shelden aren't in that position. It may be fun to try to figure out exactly what Marvin's free agent value is but that doesn't matter as much to a fan as how much Josh Smith's free agent value would be. That team doesn't have to fish or cut bait with Marvin or Shelden right now. We are reaching that point with Smoove.

I think that is the reason so much more focus is on Smith right now - because he is the one who could be our next star, wreck the franchise by leaving if we can't reach a deal or wreck the franchise by signing a cap crippling contract and then going Larry Hughes or Juwon Howard on us.

We should always be ready to make a move and our GM should always have his finger on the pulse of league opinion of our players, but things are coming to a head right now with Josh Smith. Many are afraid to lose him. Many are afraid to overpay him. This leads to a lot of debate and evaluation of him as a player now and in the future.

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Bingo!

I think the people who want to give Smoove his money right now, want to give it to him on how he played from Feburary until the end of the season . . at POWER FORWARD. Not at SF or at Center. There is no rush to sign this kid right now, especially with the two rookies here. Let Smoove's play set his market value.

To me, it's the same mistake that Phoenix made concerning Diaw.

They were so afraid to lose ANOTHER player, especially one that could play Amare's spot, that they jumped the gun and locked the kid up, before he went onto the market. He played so well in the playoffs 2 years ago, that people thought he was going to be a future All-Star. Now, I bet they're wishing that they waited a little longer.

We have to be very careful with Smoove in these negotiations. Let's see how he ane Horford play together first, before we make a long-term big money commitment to the guy.

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So let me get this straight...Smoove is a comparable player to Boris Diaw and Stromile Swift.Lol...yeah right.Boris Diaw never showed the desire to ever get better while he was in a Hawks uniform.He was passive and showed no passion for the game.With him geting around his fellow frenchman and Steve Nash it lit a fire under him.Sadly for one season though.Josh Smith blocks alone puts him past Diaw.Youngest to 500!Stromile Swift has alot of physical tools but is not in the same league as Josh Smith.You can say Smooves shooting percentage is low but at least he is a threat to hit a shot.Stromile swift couldn't shoot the rock into the ocean!

Smooth was better than Marvin and Sheldon well before February came around!It just seems to me some people would rather trade this guy.It really shows how some people go on potential more than production.Marvin was average and passive in both of his first seasons.Sheldon is never gonna be a great defensive player in this league.These guys are average as grits yet the hometown kid who wants to stay here gets the most criticism.The guy even says he wants to play for this pityful franchise we call the Hawks.That means alot to me but nothing to others!

[AHF]

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So let me get this straight...Smoove is a comparable player to Boris Diaw and Stromile Swift.Lol...yeah right.Boris Diaw never showed the desire to ever get better while he was in a Hawks uniform.He was passive and showed no passion for the game.With him geting around his fellow frenchman and Steve Nash it lit a fire under him.Sadly for one season though.Josh Smith blocks alone puts him past Diaw.Youngest to 500!Stromile Swift has alot of physical tools but is not in the same league as Josh Smith.You can say Smooves shooting percentage is low but at least he is a threat to hit a shot.Stromile swift couldn't shoot the rock into the ocean!

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Straw men are really easy to knock down. NO ONE said that Josh Smith was in the same league as Stromile Swift or even Boris Diaw. Northcyde said they were in similar position in terms of the team jumping the gun as far as signing them prematurely and that they ended up signing them to contracts that hurt the team and that there was the potential to do the same with Josh Smith's contract. His point was about how to negotiate a contract - not about comparing Smooth and Swift.

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Smooth was better than Marvin and Sheldon well before February came around!It just seems to me some people would rather trade this guy.It really shows how some people go on potential more than production.Marvin was average and passive in both of his first seasons.Sheldon is never gonna be a great defensive player in this league.These guys are average as grits yet the hometown kid who wants to stay here gets the most criticism.The guy even says he wants to play for this pityful franchise we call the Hawks.That means alot to me but nothing to others!

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If you really think people on this board prefer Shelden and Marvin to Josh Smith do a poll with two questions: (1) Who is better Josh Smith or Marvin Williams? (2) Who is better, Shelden Williams or Josh Smith?

My predicted results:

92% Josh Smith, 8% Marvin Williams

98% Josh Smith, 2% Shelden Williams

No reasonable poster is saying that Josh hasn't been better than those two guys to date.

You asked why Josh Smith was being heavily scrutinized and I told you why - it is because of his contract status. I don't know why you are trying to create some straw man argument where you are telling people that Josh is better than Stromile Swift, Shelden Williams, etc. That is clearly the case but Josh Smith is being scrutinized for the same reason that people went ape #$&* over Rashard Lewis' contract with Orlando. It isn't because people think Lewis is worse than Mike Dunleavy - it is because people think Orlando made the same mistake in overpaying Lewis that GS did in overpaying Dunleavy. Here people are alternatively worried about overpaying Josh Smith and losing him if we don't handle his negotiations correctly. There is a lot on the line.

[thesheedera]

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If you really think people on this board prefer Shelden and Marvin to Josh Smith do a poll with two questions: (1) Who is better Josh Smith or Marvin Williams? (2) Who is better, Shelden Williams or Josh Smith?

My predicted results:

92% Josh Smith, 8% Marvin Williams

98% Josh Smith, 2% Shelden Williams

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I don't think the results would be that severe, but they'd be pretty darn close.

No sensible poster believes that Josh Smith isn't extremely valuable to the team. No sensible poster can say that Josh hasn't proven that he has serious star potential at a very young age.

However, no sensible poster can say with confidence that Shelden and Marvin have proven that they're never gonna be really good players.

[Zone034life]

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"Potential is nothing if you do not have the desire to reach it"...Zone034life

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Much respect!

[Zone034life]

Josh Smith will get paid whether it be in Atlanta or somewhere else.I would much rather it be in Atlanta without other teams competing for his services.What message does it send to him that they were unwilling to sign him this off season?Do you want to risk him not wanting to be here next summer. Get this through your head people,Atlanta is NOT a great destination for free agents! So when one of your own states he wants to be here get it done.Some of you are to arrogant to realize how bad of a franchise this really is right now.Who in the hell are the Hawks to not be signing one of the young up and coming stars in the league to an extension?They may be my favorite squad but i'm not ignorant to the fact that if someone has the desire to play here it outweighs another player who is simply on the roster.Whos to say if you do trade Smoove the veteran(J. O'Neal or Gasol) won't pull a Gary Payton on them!

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If you really think people on this board prefer Shelden and Marvin to Josh Smith do a poll with two questions: (1) Who is better Josh Smith or Marvin Williams? (2) Who is better, Shelden Williams or Josh Smith?

My predicted results:

92% Josh Smith, 8% Marvin Williams

98% Josh Smith, 2% Shelden Williams

No reasonable poster is saying that Josh hasn't been better than those two guys to date.

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Start it up then homeboy...Lol!Would you rather have Smooth and Chilldress as your future 3 and 4 or Marvin and Sheldon?

Sometimes I wonder is there a Duke and UNC contingent behind these guys.Maybe if Smoove went to College he wouldn't get broken down at every turn.

Sheldon nor Marvin will ever be as good as Smoove because his passion to be great and physical tools exceed theres.Period!!!!!!!!!!!!!!