What if Horford is better than Smoove . .?

[exodus]

I really don't get what exactly you are trying to argue.

Smith gets a LOT more credit on here than Shelden and Marvin combined. Not even close.

As far as his contract status goes i would certainly like for it to be taken care of now if they could sign him for

$10 million/yr. But if he is asking for $12 million or more i say play the season out.

The only real reason to worry about losing Smith is the fact that our ownership is a mess. If that was not the case then i wouldn't be worried at all about losing him. RFA's generally don't get many, if any, offers from other teams.

[Zone034life]

You can't take the factor out that Smith might not want to stay in Atlanta next season.Thats a big reason why I want to lock this guy up honestly.Lets face it the Hawks aren't very good and he might want a change of scenary if the Hawks have another losing season.Not many people are saying they want to play in Atlanta like Joe Johnson and Josh Smith have.Thats why these two will always be my favorite Hawks until they leave!I say build a team around those two and everyone else is expendable(minus Horford and Law).

[AHF]

I just figured out the problem.

You have only been on this site for two months.

Go back over past two years and see how often Childress, Marvin, Shelden and Smith have been broken down.

If I were to estimate, I would say that:

(1) Marvin's game and future has been broken down more than any other player. His critics have been fierce, he has had some strong defenders, and there has been a sizable middle ground. Lots of debate and handwringing over him. Definitely more criticism of his game in two years with the Hawks than of Smoove's over three years with the team.

(2) Shelden's game has been criticized the most of any of these guys. He has been bashed the most. He has a sizable group of people who have written him off as anything more than a neglible role player, a number of fans who think he has All-Star potential who can be counted on your hands, and a group of people in the middle ground who think he is never going to be great but has the potential to be a quality starter.

(3) Childress's game is probably the least scrutinized. There have been a lot of threads lamenting on his selection in the draft but for the most part the consensus is that he is an efficient and productive player but that he is also limited offensively, especially because of his inability to shoot the jumper under pressure. He has a large majority of posters on this site who like him but who think he is not an essential component of the team (or at least not more than as a glue guy). A small minority on either side believe he has star potential or that he is nearly worthless.

(4) Josh Smith's game has been dissected a good bit because it has such obvious strengths and obvious flaws. Nevertheless, the vast majority of posters view him as someone with tremendous potential. The vast majority view him as having shown more capability of becoming a star than Shelden or Childress. A smaller but significant majority also view him as having more potential than Marvin.

Scrutiny of his game has revolved primarily around his jumpshot (both ability and shot selection), his one-on-one defense, and his lack of post moves/perimeter dribbling skills. Nearly universal acclaim has been given to him for his shot blocking, explosiveness to the rim, all-around play (rebounding, clutch scoring, steals, etc.) and his improvement/development as a player.

The threads discussing his pros/cons have come up much more frequently since you have been posting on this site because the Hawks are in the middle of the negotiation period for an extension. Unless you favor a maximum deal, and the vast majority of posters don't, you have to determine the appropriate value based on Smith's performance, upside, downside, and market conditions.

You seem to be mistaking this for a lack of respect for Josh Smith. He is loved by the vast majority of posters on this forum. The issue of what the appropriate contract extension is for him in light of the Hawks' financial issues is the topic of conversation.

Just like talk about a contract extension for Jeff Francour after last year would have involved a lot of criticism of his on-base-percentage, there is going to be criticism of aspects of Josh's game. Don't lose sight, though, of the fact that the posters here on the whole absolutely want the Hawks to resign him and are huge fans of his.

When you keep talking about how he compares to Childress, Marvin, etc. or keep making out that fans don't like or are overly critical of Josh, you are missing the whole point of this discussion, IMO. Your comments about lack of criticism of players like Marvin Williams also leads me to conclude that you lack context as to how these players have been discussed on this forum.

There is a good reason why the dead horse icon wears a Marvin Williams jersey and not a Josh Smith one.

[atlien]

Zone, WTF are you even arguing about. I think the posters you are attempting to argue with are agreeing that Smoove is the man (at least when compared to Marvin and Shelly).

They are just being a bit more prudent about giving the guy a huge extension. It isn't between signing and not signing the guy. We ALL want to sign him. But it's important to give the guy a contract that is fair and viable.

[AHF]

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Zone, WTF are you even arguing about. I think the posters you are attempting to argue with are agreeing that Smoove is the man (at least when compared to Marvin and Shelly).

They are just being a bit more prudent about giving the guy a huge extension. It isn't between signing and not signing the guy. We ALL want to sign him. But it's important to give the guy a contract that is fair and viable.

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Vastly superior summary of this than my longwinded post.

[exodus]

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You can't take the factor out that Smith might not want to stay in Atlanta next season.

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First of all Josh has given every indication that he likes it here and wants to stay. Secondly it really doesn't matter if he wants to leave anyway because he is restricted. Even if he wanted to leave and signed with another team the Hawks could still match, assuming Belkin agrees of course.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

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So let me get this straight...Smoove is a comparable player to Boris Diaw and Stromile Swift.Lol...yeah right.

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Their contract year situations were definitely comparable. Smoove is obviously a better player than both guys, no doubt on that. But I'll also add this. All three guys had to find out where they should play, in order to maximize their potential as a player. None of those players had a set position in which their skill set dictated where they should play. The coaches and the players themselves, had to figure out where to play each guy.

In Atlanta, we wanted Diaw to be a point guard, or at the very least, a point forward. Phoenix essentially played the guy as a point center, and maximized his talent.

Stromile just doesn't have the desire to be great. I think he's content with just being a shot blocker and a dunker. After 6 years, he still doesn't have a legit post move to go to. He'd much rather just stand on the outside, and shoot 15 - 18 foot jumpers . . that he can't make.

With Smoove, he's literally had to play 3 positions ( SG, SF, PF ) before we finally got an idea where to play him at so that he can be the best player he can be for us. All I'm saying is to let him play that position ( PF ) one more year, before making a major contract decision.

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Smooth was better than Marvin and Sheldon well before February came around!It just seems to me some people would rather trade this guy.It really shows how some people go on potential more than production.

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No one is ready/willing to trade Smoove. I just want to make sure that the Smoove we saw in the 2nd half of the season ( a lot of that without Joe Johnson ), is the Smoove we should expect to see going into this season.

Smoove shot 36% FG in November . . 50% FG in December . . 46% FG in January . . 42% in February . . 46% FG in March . . and 44% FG in April. Excuse me for not wanting to give the guy the world, but our PF needs to be shooting between 47% - 50% FG, not under 45% FG. Especially if you're a guy like Smoove, that can't make 35% of your jumpshots in the first place.

Al Jefferson shot 51% last year. Gerald Wallace shot 50% last year. I'm sorry if I don't want to give the kid 12 million a year, when he shoots less than 45% FG.

This kid definitely has talent. A lot of it. But he has to also learn what his limitations are. As of right now, I don't know if he does or not. He still takes bad shots. He still tries to push the ball up the floor, when he should be giving it to a guard and filling the fast break lanes himself. And he's still plays below average "on the ball" defense.

That's part of the reason why I started this thread in the first place. If we're in a situation where our PF ( Smoove ) is shooting less than 45% FG, but is getting the 2nd most shots on the team, that does not help the Hawks. His shot selection needs to dramatically improve, if he's going to be the #2 option on this team. And if Horford proves right out the gate that he can shoot at a 50%+ FG clip, shouldn't he be getting more opportunities on the inside than Smoove?

This isn't about Marvin or Shelden ( yet ), this is about Josh Smith. It'll definitely be about Marvin next year, if he still can't finish around the rim, plays inconsistent perimeter defense, and isn't aggressive as he should be. But right now, because of the contract, it's all about Smoove.

And it's important to see if he can play at least at the same level next season with a healthy JJ, that he did without JJ at the end of last year.

As the German villian told one of his colleagues in "Die Hard With A Vengence", who was about to call the helicopter to come get them, but the Villian wanted to do the "nasty" with his female colleague for a little bit . .

"No Rush."

There is no rush to sign Smoove. He can't get his money till next season anyway, even if he did sign an extension now.

[pimp]

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There is no rush to sign Smoove. He can't get his money till next season anyway, even if he did sign an extension now.

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[/indent]

What if J.Smith has a hugh year. Gets an offer from another, then Belken dosen't agree to match?

We would look foolish for not signing him now.

[AtLaS]

I also want to get him signed as soon as possible, and everyone else does as well, I'm not sure where you got all this Smith hate from. Everyone here (with the exception of about 2 uninformed posters) is a huge Smith supporter. You're overreacting bigtime.

[Zone034life]

Let me set the record straight for you all.When I say Josh Smith is heavily scrutinized i'm not just talking about Hawksqwuak.I'm referring to co workers,friends,and posters on ajc and realgm who don't appreciate the guy.I realize he has a large contigent on this sight but i'm using multiple sights and people as the source for my thoughts.Maybe I should have told you guys that before.I've heard everything from trade Smoove and start Sheldon at the four to he is a thug and will end up being the next Mike Vick.Just think if you heard these type of things the passion and emotion you would have about a guy most of us realize will be special.I was a Hawks fan long before I joined this sight!I know Hawks fans and have encountered plenty of others other than this sight to talk about the Hawks.I was reading this blog long before I joined the sight as well!So to bring up how long I have been a member is useless because I have been reading this sight for a long time.Please don't think just because you have alot of posts on this sight you are a bigger Hawks fan or have more credibility than me.It seems some of you have a since of entitlement because of this!

[exodus]

You really need to tone it down. You aren't making much sense.

BTW it is site not sight.

[AtLaS]

seriously, every person I talk to bashes Shelden more than anyone. Marvin takes a lot of flack. I really don't know anyone personally that bashes Smith or JJ, I think you are just overreacting or you talk to a bunch of casual, fairweather, bandwagon Hawks fans that know nothing about the Hawks or the NBA in general. Who cares what uninformed fans think?

[AHF]

Not trying to claim I am a better fan or anything like that. The more fans the merrier. If you have been on this site you know no player has been more debated and scrutinized than Marvin Williams. That is why the icon has been repeatedly used where the stick figure is beating a dead horse wearing a Marvin jersey.

[DJlaysitup]

If beating a dead horse was a felony like dog fighting...Walter would be in jail for life

[Johnnybravo4]

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Zone, WTF are you even arguing about. I think the posters you are attempting to argue with are agreeing that Smoove is the man (at least when compared to Marvin and Shelly).

They are just being a bit more prudent about giving the guy a huge extension. It isn't between signing and not signing the guy. We ALL want to sign him. But it's important to give the guy a contract that is fair and viable.

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Vastly superior summary of this than my longwinded post.

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I think what Zone is confused about is why fans are being prudent as if we are spending our money. If we let Smoove walk we basically get nothing in return, we wouldn't be clearing cap space, and we would end up spending more to keep Marvin to make up for the fact that we let Smoove walk.

[atlien]

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I think what Zone is confused about is why fans are being prudent as if we are spending our money. If we let Smoove walk we basically get nothing in return...

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As a RFA, if we weren't going to resign him (which would be ridiculous), we better get something in return.

The thing is, if there wasn't such a thing as a salary cap and a luxury tax, etc., i'd be down to give Smoove a MAX deal (he is going to be the face of the franchise). I think some of us are being prudent because we don't wanna see the team get limited by a bloated contract.

Put it this way. AK-47 is a great player; very comparable to Smoove. But could you reasonably give him a deal paying 12-14 mill a year (what Im guessing Smoove is wanting). (I'm not sure what Kirelinko makes by the way).

Now, I think Smoove will end up having a better all-around game than Kirelinko (which says A LOT), but wouldn't you wanna at least see a bit more offensive growth -- especially next to Horford -- before giving him such a huge deal. I know if I were the GM, I sure as heck would.

But don't construe it... I definitely WANNA keep Smoove (more so than any other Hawks player).

These are just the type of things where it is WAAAAY easier to be an armchair GM, than face the reality of salary caps, etc.

The truth is that these contract issues must be carefully considered. There's no "hatred" for Smoove there. Business is business, its just the way it goes.

[Zone034life]

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BTW it is site not sight.

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I sea you ar tha sights spel cheker.Do u get paid 4 ur servizes?

[Zone034life]

WTF,no need for the foul language guy....Lol.We're not face to face so i'll just laugh it off!

I realize that most fans love Smoove.I also realize he is a Restricted free agent next offseason.What you all don't realize is is that I don't trust Billy or this ownership group to get it right.When I said sign him this season before he wants to leave I meant that the ownership and BK could make him want to leave.I believe he wants to win in Atlanta and stay here but if he feels he is geting low balled or Belkin rejects multiple multi year deals the guy could honestly get fed up.Would you wanna deal with this organization right now if you were a player? If he does end up wanting to leave why then would you keep unhappy player around in your locker room.They would be forced to trade him next season or let him walk the season after next.

For the small contingent who wants to sign smoove now we all will feel much better after it gets done because we DO NOT trust BK or this ownership group to get it right. Why would any of you?

[Diesel]

I agree with you... there should be some urgency to lock up Smoove right now... Weather he is the best PF or not. The truth of the matter is that Smoove is the most marketable player that has come through Atlanta since Nique...

So to answer your first question:

If Horford is better than Smoove, we try to fit Smoove in, prolly by putting him back to his original(and soughted) position of Sf.

If he can't fit the bill for Sf and Horford is a beast, then we make some team pay dearly in trade for Smoove, by offering Smoove and our ending contracts for a player worthy of Smoove's talents.

That means... I would probably trade Smoove for Gasol... BUT I would want a first rounder to go with that!

Smoove for Deron or Paul works for me.

Smoove for Marcus Williams and an unprotected first is a strong consideration.

But if we trade Smoove, we have to get back some game changer...otherwise, it's not worth it!

[TheNorthCydeRises]

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Put it this way. AK-47 is a great player; very comparable to Smoove. But could you reasonably give him a deal paying 12-14 mill a year (what Im guessing Smoove is wanting). (I'm not sure what Kirelinko makes by the way).

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Kirilenko will make 13.7 million next season. Over the next 4 years, he is guaranteed 55 million total. No team or player options in the deal. No matter how good or bad he plays, he'll make 55 million between 2007 and 2011.

Boozer and Okur both have player options coming in 2009 and will be a unrestricted free agent in 2010, if not resigned. Deron becomes a restricted free agent in the summer of 2009.

If Kirilenko struggles again next year, he'll offically become untradeable, because of that ridiculous contract.

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Now, I think Smoove will end up having a better all-around game than Kirelinko (which says A LOT), but wouldn't you wanna at least see a bit more offensive growth -- especially next to Horford -- before giving him such a huge deal. I know if I were the GM, I sure as heck would.

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Exactly.