I've withheld posting for awhile...

[Guest Walter]

...but let me make one single, simple point clear.

When Marvin's offseason more resembles Salim's than Josh Smith's and that fact is somehow construed (by anyone) as a defense of MW, then those who would argue as such are CRAZY.

Salim is simply not a guy I would EVER want to be compared to as a prospect. I don't think Salim is a awful guy, but he's certainly not a player that teams would want ANY part of aside from his perimeter shooting. That being said, MW could stand to be even HALF as intense as Salim and any other comparison to Salim (other than 3 pt. shooting) should in no way be construed as a compliment to MW.

There are some rare individuals that can both be great NBA professionals and carry on other time-consuming interests simultaneously without jeopardizing either, but Salim and MW aren't those individuals! I'm no more or less satisfied with Salim's offseason than MW, but one thing is for certain, I care a hell-of-a-lot less about whether Salim reaches his potential than whether MW does. In fact, I don't care AT ALL whether Salim reaches his. I think he's more disruptive than he is valuable. But MW? Is there not a player or draft pick whose productivity holds the success of the franchise hostage more? NO! We invested our franchise's highest draft pick, have made room on the team for him to start with trades of a starter, have passed on franchise PGs for him, have played players out of position for him, etc. His success (or trade value) is of utmost importance if not all important to this team.

One other difference is that unlike Salim, MW came into the NBA early meaning he would have to develop his skills himself, putting in extra time and energy, while also contributing to a new team in a new league, at a much higher level of competition. The offseasons become basketball skill-set summer school for these NCAA drop-outs. More remedial time would be NECESSARY honing skills he should have had upon entering the NBA. Personally, I am skeptical that MW is putting in even the minimum amount of time necessary to get better at what limited skills he already knows much less learning the necessary skills he lacks. Prospects do not get significantly better by treading NBA water in the offseason! MW is doing NOTHING to suggest that he isn't the same nice guy, OUT OF SHAPE interviewer he was when we blew a #2 pick on him.

Yes, I know, MW did Pilates last year (yawn) to build up his core muscles. Yes, he scrimmages with ex-UNC players a small portion of the time. But please, this is a guy that came to the BIGGEST JOB INTERVIEW IN HIS LIFE and chose to do so out of shape with his shirt untucked! You would think a light would click and he would devote himself wholly to the profession of basketball he chose to pursue. Hire trainer after trainer, dieticians, nutritionists, and chefs, work out with coaches, NBA greats, players he wants to or should model his game after, attempt to make offseason professional squads, EVEN accept that his decision was to be a professional basketball player NOW and NOT remain a part of the UNC student body. These are the most important basketball developmental years of his career. I want MW to get his education, but NOT at the expense of his basketball career and reaching whatever ceiling he has.

Moreover, MW is characterizing himself in conceivably THE BEST LIGHT POSSIBLE and he still comes off as presenting an underacheiving effort regarding basketball development. This is MW's offseason described by the most forgiving observer possible AND IT STILL SOUNDS WEAK ASS!

MW has to this point failed to approach even reasonable expectations for productivity and efficiency and his PER reflects somehow diminishing returns in his sophomore vs rookie seasons. In light of this, in light of a player who attended the most important interviewS of his life out of shape, who entered the NBA knowing he needed extensive self-study, remedial basketball education, who in his own, excuse making, forgiving words describes an off-season only a 12 year vet could love...in light of MW more resembling Salim than JS, many here should get a clue. Instead of redefining "victory" as MW going from a franchise player when drafted to now, HOPEFULLY a good starter someday, we should accept that the best thing that MW will ever accomplish without significantly advanced efforts on his part has already passed. An unfortunate 2nd overall pick selection in a franchise Pg draft.

W

[djcorley]

Marvin was 19 when he entered the league. You have to remember..think about KG and Kobe and even Jermain O'neal...Marvins numbers are better then all there at this stage in his career. NOW...I'm not suggesting that he will get to that level. But, he's progressing well at this point and everyone needs to chill and let him mature into his body and game! There isn't a 3,4 or 5 that anyone would take over him in that draft and I wouldn't take Felton over Marvin. I personally think he's gonna become a beast in the league...I just hope he's still in a Hawk uniform when he does!

[pimp]

The Marvin numbers were better than Kobe/J.O comparison

does not appy, Because Marvin has played farson more minutes

than them , and played on a team with fewer scorers than them.

Both J.O and Kobe came straight out of highschool.

They were both 18 when they entered the NBA.

Marvin went to North Carolina

Kobe and J.O WERE not high lottery picks.Marvin was.

Kobe AND J.O were backups on big time playoff teams.

Kobe played behind allstar Eddie Jones, and J.O played behind Rasheed Wallace and Brian Grant.

Marvin is a starter on one of the worst teams in league and plays behind noone.

Kobe started a total of 7 games, in his first 2 years.

J.O started only 9

Marvin has started 70

Kobe avg 20.7 minutes per game in his first 2 seasons.

J.O avg 11.8 mpg

Marvin avg 29.3 mpg.. 34 last year

Kobe avg 15.4 ppg in just 26mpg ,and was voted to the ALLSTAR game in his 2nd year.

Because of Wallace and Grant, J.O was not even a full time starter until his 5th season, when he was traded to the Pacers.

That comparison just does not fit IMO.

Also i thought about this.

If the Nba made an allstar team of the 2005 draft, Marvin would not make the starting lineup. It's sad but true.

Pg:Chris Paul

sg:Deron Williams

sf:Danny Granger his number are better ... look it up

Pf:David Lee

C: Andrew Bogut

6TH MAN:Felton

7TH MAN Monte Ellis

8th man Marvin Williams

[pimp]

OOPS , I forgot about KG.

Kg got good playing time, and was a fulltime starter in his 2nd season,unlike the others.

But his 2nd year Kg put up very good numbers

2nd year

17.0 ppg

8.0 rpg

3.1 apg

2.1 bpg

1.4 spg

49.9 FG%

So you were wrong about MW'S numbers being better.

[Lascar78]

[pimp]

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[atlien]

lol, you just couldnt take it anymore huh?

You missed the boat on the Marvin debate, it's played out. Let's wait to see them play this season, then have at it.

[Guest Walter]

Lascar, as soon as you quit beating "poor little MW" drum I won't have to beat the dead horse that is him.

People continually redifine victory and move up the goal posts for MW when he himself isn't doing the work (much less remedial work he signed up for with an early entry) necessary.

If MW worked as hard at improving his game as his apologists do in defending his lackluster play and (offseason) ehem "effort", he'd be a great baller. We're left with the worst dead horse beating ever..."lay off poor little MW". How [censored] tired is that nonsense. "Poor little Marvin Williams!" When is he going to take an offseason SERIOUSLY?!? No more pilates workouts and 'opps, I ran into coach, I'd better get to work' training sessions. This guy has remedial basketball skills education to finish and basketball is the 2nd thing (if that much) on his mind?!? This is according to him. This is the most favorable characterization possible and he still looks disinterested in his CAREER!

Good grief. Can't the man defend himself by working on his own game like it matters and he understands that leaving college early necessitates a time and effort commitment to developing oneself?!? He chose professional basketball as his profession. He chose it EARLY knowing that he would have to put in the extra work. HE JUST DOESN'T PUT IN THE WORK! What's hard for the MW apologists to see here?

There is no defense for it and unlike with Salim, for the Hawks IT MATTERS whether or not MW gives a d@mn and puts in the time and effort his early commitment to this profession demands (alah Josh Smith).

...But of course, Lascar can't see past his colon. Wake up people. The most important training offseason for this team (it's most definitely now or never as we have no pick and it's "resign the youngin's time" starting now) and MW is still chasing fantasies of college life when basketball wasn't his profession. When you leave school early, expect to work harder. You have more work to do and less obligations at this point of your career and taking on anymore major obligations than basketball and family is a mistake. MW? He is living the offseason of 12 year vet and that decision is just mistake one amongst many that highlight the franchise's greater mistake of drafting him.

W

[DJ_Money]

Based on this topic, I'm setting the over/under on Walter's next "leave of absence" at 2 weeks.

[Diesel]

I can't believe you left out Frye and Villanueva?

[DJlaysitup]

Welcome back Walt! Take em up to Jaba point and have a picnic with them

Seriously though, I too am VERY concerned with Salim and MW. Salim isn't a big worry, although we could use a decent backup 2 (I don't count JC as a 2 since he can't get his shot off from the hip without being dead-assed wide open.

MW will either be decent or he will be the heavy chain around the Hawks' neck. Two problems:

- if MW improves a bit BK will keep him to show his brilliance.

- If he doesn't, he won't be worth spit on the trade market.

[Guest Walter]

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- if MW improves a bit BK will keep him to show his brilliance.

- If he doesn't, he won't be worth spit on the trade market.

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MW will "improve a bit" as he is young and couldn't help but trip over getting better, but it will be hollow "improvement". His efficiency will not improve (as it did not last year). His MPG should increase and that should equate to some sort of "improvement".

But that's it. The value of Sfs of MW caliber is extremely low. Already his trade value is that of a LATE lottery/mid-1st. The talk of his PO-tential is tiresome to most everyone outside of a few in this forum and BK. In the context of his laziness and lack of basketball focus nobody wants to pay value for an underachiever "nice guy", particularly when he's coming up on his contract year!!!

Basketball was the career path he chose for himself KNOWING that he would have to supplement his NBA education with his own, extra, body and skill development training. He would have to WORK HARD to build his body and develop his skills in the offseason when the NBA regular season often breaks down players physically and doesn't allow the time and opportunity to develop new aspects of one's game.

Instead, he left college early so he could return to school and MAKE BASKETBALL DEVELOPMENT HIS SECOND PRIORITY?!? College still is his priority. A nobel one if you are his family, perhaps, but a poor one if you are the franchise who drafted him. He has his life in which to get a degree (in AA studies?). He has a couple of years to develop his body and his game, after which the demand of family and the need for rest increases. Soon his offseason resembles that of a vet. Wait it already does!?!?!?

Frankly, I think MW is WEAK! He's simply too weak willed. He returns to UNC in the summer for the sheltering college life because he can't handle real life. He left college too early and the Atlanta Hawks are paying the price for his immaturity and premature venture into manhood.

Anyhow, I agree MW will "improve" as much as more minutes will demonstrate while his efficiency will not improve significantly if not decrease as it did last year, BK will call such "improvement" a sign of success, and plow full steam ahead towards gutting all the "PO-tential" trade value that MW has in order to save his job.

W

[mrhonline]

Welcome back, Walt. Do be civil.

[atlien]

...Love to think they know all from the on-line articles they read. And I can't blame you, it makes your life more interesting.

And I know what you're saying, he had the chance to portray himself in the best light possible, and this is all he gave us. Well, maybe it is true that he hasn't been doing what he needs to. Or maybe he comes back with a healthy and dependable 3-point shot along with better handles. Maybe he's way behind Smoove in his offseason regimen, or maybe he's equal to or even greater than Smoove.

And, I know, you'll say it's almost assuredely the former in both scenarios.

But C'mon, the point is that you're not with Marvin, Smooth, Chill, etc. You HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THEY ARE DOING AND WHAT THEY ARE NOT DOING. Hey, Smooth could be smoking massive amounts of pot every night for all we know (not saying he is, it's just an example).

I know its fun to read an article and then act like you have some inside knowledge on what these guys are doing, and then go to a message board and attempt to PWN some n00bians on this great knowledge that you supposedly have, but seriously, you are just that: an internet poster set out to own some n00bs on some reading-between-the-lines knowledge that you don't really have.

I know it's boring right now, but cmon, just wait for the season to begin. I'm sure you'll find plenty of opportunities to get some n00b pwnage in then.

And remember, we're only talking about Marvin's offseason regimen (which, to repeat, you don't really know about), so don't go broadening the discussion to try to prove a point. I agree that Marvin hasn't been nearly assertive enough yet in this league and I am in no way saying he isn't flawed. But Im also not willing to make the definitive, Marvin-is-a-bust statements that a lot of people make. I know it's not what yall wanted from the 2-pick, but Marvin was forced to do too much too soon.

[Diesel]

is.

The MW fans will say:

Marvin's not responsible for where he was drafted and he shouldn't be held responsible for being the 2nd pick overall?

To me, that is sickening.

You have to be responsible for Yourself as a highly touted ball player. The stars look forward to living up to the hype. It's called determination.

What once made Notre Dame football great is that they had a mandate to "play like champions today". In order to play like champions, they worked out like champions, they practiced like champions, they learned like champions. Now, they have forgotten what all that means. They have the Marvin mentality of do the best you can on game day. If you don't prepare to be great, you won't be great.

[exodus]

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Marvin's not responsible for where he was drafted and he shouldn't be held responsible for being the 2nd pick overall?

To me, that is sickening.

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No it is basic common sense.

He should be held responsible for how he performs on the court. But he isn't responsible for where he was picked. BK picked him and BK clearly made a mistake.

If BK had made the right pick we wouldn't care how Marvin was performing.

[atlien]

Quote:

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I know it's not what yall wanted from the 2-pick, but Marvin was forced to do too much too soon.

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I stand by this statement and Im not really sure why you would debate it.

[pimp]

What exactly was he forced to do, that any other top 3 lotto sf's hasn't?

Lebron and Carmelo had to be the leading scorer and go to guy on their teams from day one.That's being forced to do too much to soon.

What have the Hawks forced Marvin to do?

[thesheedera]

As far as anyone can know definitively from the Marvin interview article is that he was working out with a trainer and playing pick up ball with guys who spend summers in Chapel Hill (i.e. current UNC players, recruits, former UNC players, former non-UNC players with relationships to someone mentioned in the previous categories, i.e. a mixed bag of talent on all levels) daily through some time in May when classes began.

He says that "later" he became more focused on whatever basketball related items he presumably discussed with the assistant coach.

If "later" meant September, then that would worry me greatly, and I assume it would worry everyone here as well.

If "later" meant later in May or some time in June, then I wouldn't see the significance of it at all.

If "later" meant July or August, then it's probably something worth debating the good/bad of, it's in that gray area. Some would say the off time is of no consquence, some would say he's simply not focused. It would be at least something worth a debate and I don't know where I'd fall in the discussion.

But the fact of the matter is that we don't know. And instead of wondering when things happen, the anti-Marvin guys assume the worst and the pro-Marvin guys assume the best, and the board goes to [censored].

[gsuteke]

Quote:

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As far as anyone can know definitively from the Marvin interview article is that he was working out with a trainer and playing pick up ball with guys who spend summers in Chapel Hill (i.e. current UNC players, recruits, former UNC players, former non-UNC players with relationships to someone mentioned in the previous categories, i.e. a mixed bag of talent on all levels) daily through some time in May when classes began.

He says that "later" he became more focused on whatever basketball related items he presumably discussed with the assistant coach.

If "later" meant September, then that would worry me greatly, and I assume it would worry everyone here as well.

If "later" meant later in May or some time in June, then I wouldn't see the significance of it at all.

If "later" meant July or August, then it's probably something worth debating the good/bad of, it's in that gray area. Some would say the off time is of no consquence, some would say he's simply not focused. It would be at least something worth a debate and I don't know where I'd fall in the discussion.

But the fact of the matter is that we don't know. And instead of wondering when things happen, the anti-Marvin guys assume the worst and the pro-Marvin guys assume the best, and the board goes to [censored].

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how about a good old fahsioned intervention?