Strange Chicago rumor

[exodus]

The rumor is (no link apparently it was reported on the radio by ESPN) is that Ben would be traded to NY for Rose, QRich and Fred Jones. Only Jones would be an expirer so basically they are just saving one year off of Ben's contract.

[gsuteke]

Wow.

what a mess.

[frosgrim]

Yeah, I heard about that last night. Paxson really messed up that team. Imagine if they still had Chandler how good they would be right now.

[Admin]

Imagine if they still had Brad Miller, Ron Artest, Elton Brand, and Chandler to go with some spare pieces they could have drafted/signed.

I'm surprised that anyone would trade for Big Ben with his age/production/salary although the Knicks can afford it and they are probably the one team that needs him the most. He makes both Randolph and Curry significantly more valuable as long as he is the game with one of them. Finally a good move by the Knicks it seems.

[DJlaysitup]

The Knicks are on a different planet revenue-wise. That still doesn't excuse bad management, but it doesn't matter as much to them.

[Admin]

It must be nice to have an owner willing to spend like that ... although being a Dolphins and Yankees fan I can't complain about a cheap owner too much, even though the ASG drives me nuts.

[frosgrim]

Dol you are fortunate in your team choices outside of the round-ball. Me, I root for all the Atlanta teams. The days of Ted Turner never seemed so good as they do now...

In terms of Big Ben going to the Knicks, I guess its a good trade. Maybe just more of moving chairs on the Titantic (we need a sinking ship grimlin).

[Admin]

The days of Turner, hell even the days of Babcock are definitely missed. Not that I thought Babs was a great GM or even close but at least he talked to the fans and you knew if there was a good chance of happening. That's one thing that really bugs me about BK is how he alienates the media and the fans by being so secretive.

[mudderfudder77]

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Yeah, I heard about that last night. Paxson really messed up that team. Imagine if they still had Chandler how good they would be right now.

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Yeah - taking them to the playoffs three straight years (after 6 years of embarrassing play) and having them picked as Eastern Conference contenders at the beginning of this year - what was he thinking?

Well, if Chandler had played anything like he played his last year in Chicago - probably not very good. Chandler had given up on Chicago - he wasn't going to go to the next level there.

Oh, and lets not forget that Chris Paul isn't playing in Chicago - I think he might have a little something to do with Tysons offensive improvements.

[mudderfudder77]

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Imagine if they still had Brad Miller, Ron Artest, Elton Brand, and Chandler

to go with some spare pieces they could have drafted/signed.

I'm surprised that anyone would trade for Big Ben with his age/production/salary although the Knicks can afford it and they are probably the one team that needs him the most. He makes both Randolph and Curry significantly more valuable as long as he is the game with one of them. Finally a good move by the Knicks it seems.

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Yep - thats why Jerry Krause is now a baseball scout.

As for the trade - it saves the Bulls about 7 million dollars and opens up playing time for Noah.

Despite the Bulls being the most profitable franchise in the NBA - they are more than frugal in their spending.

This was reported last week, and there is little chance that it actually happens. It would actually be a decent deal for both teams - the Knicks need post defense in the worst way and the Bulls need to play Noah.

[Plainview1981]

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Yeah, I heard about that last night. Paxson really messed up that team. Imagine if they still had Chandler how good they would be right now.

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Yeah - taking them to the playoffs three straight years (after 6 years of embarrassing play) and having them picked as Eastern Conference contenders at the beginning of this year - what was he thinking?

Well, if Chandler had played anything like he played his last year in Chicago - probably not very good. Chandler had given up on Chicago - he wasn't going to go to the next level there.

Oh, and lets not forget that Chris Paul isn't playing in Chicago - I think he might have a little something to do with Tysons offensive improvements.

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I think I had the Bulls ranked 2nd or 3rd in the east this year. I mean, who knew?

[TexasPete]

Paxon's only accomplishment was ripping off a stupid Isaih Thomas in the Curry trade. He then squandered the picks just like BK has done. Taking Tyrus over Aldridge was stupid, especially when Tyrus is a dupe of what he already had. Big Ben was a terrible move and many here called it at the time. Made no sense because they needed post offense and then they acquire a guy who can't even make a layup...and sign him to a deal well past his prime. In fact, he was done when they got him.

Then, they blew chances at Garnett and Gasol because Paxon overvalued his guards and Deng. In Paxon's eyes Hinrich was some untouchable HOF in waiting when in reality he's just a decent player.

He also hasnt gotten jack from Sefolosha. All in all, the Bulls and Paxon blew it. They are further from a real team than the Hawks. The Hawks need a coach, the Bulls have replicated the same positions.

Paxon frankly has lost his mojo. He needs to call Isaih to get his rep back.

[frosgrim]

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Yeah, I heard about that last night. Paxson really messed up that team. Imagine if they still had Chandler how good they would be right now.

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Yeah - taking them to the playoffs three straight years (after 6 years of embarrassing play) and having them picked as Eastern Conference contenders at the beginning of this year - what was he thinking?

Well, if Chandler had played anything like he played his last year in Chicago - probably not very good. Chandler had given up on Chicago - he wasn't going to go to the next level there.

Oh, and lets not forget that Chris Paul isn't playing in Chicago - I think he might have a little something to do with Tysons offensive improvements.

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But you can't ignore the really bad choice in signing Ben and then the subsequent poor play this year. I will defer to your insights on why the Bulls are playing so poorly this year, but from the outside it looks like Paxson made some very bad moves over the past couple of years.

This isn't to say Paxson is in the BK realm of goofy moves by any means, by the by.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Sounds like the pre-cursor to a Curry trade to me. The acquire Ben to play him alongside Randolph. Then they trade Curry for multiple players with expiring contracts to compesate for the players they lost to Chicago.

[Admin]

Since Marbury is now out for the year the Knicks could be in the market for a stop gap PG and Lue could fill that role and Z could replace Curry at a much lower salary so that they could comfortably put him on the bench.

We get rid of 2 players that we'd certainly be able to live without and get an inside presence that would fit in nicely with Al and Smoove. I'm not the biggest Curry fan in the world but he only has 2 years left after this year so it's not a move that would kill us in the future and it's certainly not like Lue or Z are players we are building around.

[mrhonline]

Trading Zaza/Lue -for- Curry effectively kills any chance of re-signing Childress. (I can't see the Hawks adding more than 2-3M in future salary/season for this reason).

Are you guys convinced that's a good thing?

[mudderfudder77]

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Paxon's only accomplishment was ripping off a stupid Isaih Thomas in the Curry trade. He then squandered the picks just like BK has done. Taking Tyrus over Aldridge was stupid, especially when Tyrus is a dupe of what he already had. Big Ben was a terrible move and many here called it at the time. Made no sense because they needed post offense and then they acquire a guy who can't even make a layup...and sign him to a deal well past his prime. In fact, he was done when they got him.

Then, they blew chances at Garnett and Gasol because Paxon overvalued his guards and Deng. In Paxon's eyes Hinrich was some untouchable HOF in waiting when in reality he's just a decent player.

He also hasnt gotten jack from Sefolosha. All in all, the Bulls and Paxon blew it. They are further from a real team than the Hawks. The Hawks need a coach, the Bulls have replicated the same positions.

Paxon frankly has lost his mojo. He needs to call Isaih to get his rep back.

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If you are going to rip a guy, at least no what you are talking about - and at the very least know how to spell his name.

He chose Tyrus because he believed him to be the best player in the draft. They had injury concerns with Aldridge, and frankly they believed him to be 'soft'. He might have blown it big time, but frankly I am going to wait more than 18 months before I call Tyrus a bust. 1/3 of the GM's surveyed voted Tyrus as the best player from that draft in 5 years. His second pick Thabo is having a great run as a starter with everyone injured, and Noah is already proving himself to be a great pick at 9.

What FA was available that had a low post game that they could have spent their FA dollars on? Big Ben was the best FA available - so they signed him. It was a huge mistake, but who should they have signed? They only had the cap space for one season, so it was use it or lose it.

Now for the trades. Paxson offered Deng, Chandler and the #2 pick in the draft for Garnett. We didn't have a low post player like Jefferson to offer. Who could we have sent to them to better the offer?

Paxson offered a 9million expiring(PJ Brown), Tyrus Thomas and the #9 pick in the draft for Pau - I'm guessing Memphis wished they had taken that deal last year.

Paxson had a deal agreed to with the Lakers for Kobe Bryant (which included Deng). Kobe vetoed the deal, because he did not want to go to the Bulls if Deng wasn't on the team.

Which deal did Pax drop the ball on?

As for his perception of Hinrich - what the hell are you basing that off of? I haven't heard one report of a team trying to get Hinrich and Pax refusing. And if he loves his guards so much why the hell did he offer Gordon a moderate contract? Pax has repeatedly talked about us needing to improve at the guard spots.

I don't think Pax is the best GM in the NBA, but I do believe he has been better than most. He took a team that was at the bottom of the NBA and had literally no talent on the roster (thanks Jerry Krause) and in two seasons turned them into a playoff team. He got them to 49 wins and had them as Eastern Conf contenders at the beginning of the seasons.

Again, if you are going to criticize, at least know what you are talking about. Stop watching so much Charles Barkley.

[mudderfudder77]

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Yeah, I heard about that last night. Paxson really messed up that team. Imagine if they still had Chandler how good they would be right now.

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Yeah - taking them to the playoffs three straight years (after 6 years of embarrassing play) and having them picked as Eastern Conference contenders at the beginning of this year - what was he thinking?

Well, if Chandler had played anything like he played his last year in Chicago - probably not very good. Chandler had given up on Chicago - he wasn't going to go to the next level there.

Oh, and lets not forget that Chris Paul isn't playing in Chicago - I think he might have a little something to do with Tysons offensive improvements.

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But you can't ignore the really bad choice in signing Ben and then the subsequent poor play this year. I will defer to your insights on why the Bulls are playing so poorly this year, but from the outside it looks like Paxson made some very bad moves over the past couple of years.

This isn't to say Paxson is in the BK realm of goofy moves by any means, by the by.

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In hindsight the Big Ben signing was terrible, but at the time it was the best option. Chandler had just come off the worst season of his career and had played historically bad in the playoffs - all of this after being rewarded with a new contract.

The Bulls had the caproom, and couldn't roll it over to the next offseason because of the Hinrich extension and Nocioni RFA. They went and signed the best FA on the market at a position of need. The Bulls frontcourt was absolutely atrocious, and it was thought that Ben could stabilize it.

Because of The owners edict on salary, Paxson was forced to trade Chandler after signing Ben. Chandler had been given 5 years in Chicago and aside from one good season had been a pretty big disappointment. I actually like Chandler, he seems like a good kid, but he was done in Chicago. Whehther it was the pressure of being traded for Brand or the new contract - who knows. The trade did light a fire under him though and he did things he never did in Chicago (like hire a trainer and a nutritionist)

In retrospect the Big Ben signing was obviously a mistake, but to Pax's credit he only signed him to a 4 year deal that also declines each year. Big Ben's contract expires the same season that Lebron, Wade, and the rest of the big FA's become available. Its doubtful we sign them, but it is possible that Bens contract becomes a valuable expiring - like Kwame was this season.

Why are the Bulls playing so bad this season? There are a multitude of reasons, some of which include injuries (to Deng, Gordon, and Hinrich) Big Bens suckitude, coaching, and two players response to not signing a new contract (Deng and Gordon).

Skiles had given up on the team, and in his place Pax hired an assistant as the interim. This assistant has shown himself to be quite possibly the stupidest coach in the history of the NBA. His substitutions are maddening and predictable. He plays the veterans until their legs fall off - even when the younger players behind them have proven themselves to be better.

Deng and Gordon have been out for extended periods, and Hinrich has been missing games of late. These three guys account for almost 55 points a game.

Big Ben sucks, and even though Noah has proven to be a better player Ben is still playing 35+ minutes a game.

In general it seems like everything that could go wrong has gone wrong.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

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Trading Zaza/Lue -for- Curry effectively kills any chance of re-signing Childress. (I can't see the Hawks adding more than 2-3M in future salary/season for this reason).

Are you guys convinced that's a good thing?

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I'm not sure about the numbers, but if you turn that into a Zaza/Shelden/Lue trade for Curry, that would be an extra 7 million that would come off the books in Shelden and Zaza, that wouldn't have come off before.

Add Curry's 10 mill, Smoove's impending max deal, and a re-signed Chill at about 6 - 7 mill a year, and we may could keep the entire core intact. I don't see teams offering Chill big money.

I would NOT start Curry. I'd use him strictly as an offensive low post scorer against the 2nd unit. Defensively, we'd hope that Smoove or Horford could provide weak side help if need be.

Curry is a scoring upgrade over Zaza and Shelden. I'd hope he could average 11 - 14 points a game in that role off the bench, while shooting 55%+ FG.

If we're going to go with an 8-man rotation, I'd rather roll with Chill, Acie, and Curry coming off the bench, than Chill, Acie, and any combo of Zaza/Shelden/Lorenzen/Lue. Let Mario play spot minutes when necessary.

[frosgrim]

Mudder thanks for the insights on the Bulls. As I said from the outside it looks like some very poor management over the past couple of years. In terms of signing Ben, I can't reemember who else was available, but the results have been poor.

In terms of poor coaching, I think Mike Woodson and the guy you have are neck and neck on stupid coaching moves.