Jumaine Jones to be traded to Boston.

[DJ_Money]

Reportedly, Jones will be sent to Boston for J.R. Bremer and Bruno Sundov.

Back do the drawing board...

[Guest]

Yeah while Billy Knight(please don't let this guy remain GM)

and new lameduck ownership sits on it's @ss and not even signing a bench player to even fill out the roster other teams

are signing any player that is any good at all.

Sad Sad

I wonder how Billy got a job with the NBA in first place.

[Guest]

why would you want to sign a sf who couldn't earn minutes on the team that Cleveland fielded last eyar?

I'm telling you, we have our starting sf and this team is rebuilding. We'll be competitive this year, though perhaps not that good, winning 35 games again or so. however, JT will be forced to learn and run the point, SAR will be forced to be the man and Diaw and DD will get valuable minutes (esp. Diaw, who will be forced to start at sf...this nonsense of people listing him as a sg baffles me...that was only out of necessity when we still had Dog as the incumbent starting sf)...

this team's "sitting on it's ass" through this offseason will be the best thing for it in the long run...aka, two years from now.

[Traceman]

while still TRYING to win. Even if Dog didn't fit, it would have been nice if we could have traded him for someone who gave us a chance to win over the next 2 seasons. I would have even taken Spreewell. I agree that 05/06 is the year but that being the case, why couldn't we have at least brought in someone who can contribute for a couple of seasons? An ending salary like Wes Person would have been better than "capspace" because the last time I looked, "capspace" couldn't score, defend, rebound or run the offense.

As for Diaw, I don't know if he's going to be "forced" to start at SF or not. You say that he was only listed at SG out of necessity but I don't think that is the case at all. I think the reason he was brought in was so that he could team with JT in the BACKCOURT. We have been looking for that elusive ballhandling, playmaking, defending backcourt mate for JT since he got here and I think Diaw was the chosen one for this year. I don't think that is going to change unless Diaw is so raw and inexperienced that he proves that he is not up to the task. Diaw has a chance to be special (or at least valuable to this team) as a guard. 6'9" guys who play SF grow on trees. He may end up playing SF because we don't have any healthy ones right now but I don't think he was brought here to play SF.

[KB21]

Sigh.

Had we taken on a contract like Latrell's or kept Glenn Robinson, the Hawks would have certainly lost Jason Terry. The main reason the deal was done was to create enough room under the luxury tax cliff threshold to match any offer JT gets. Had the team kept Glenn or traded for Sprewell, they wouldn't have been able to match the possible 6 year, $55 million deal Terry is getting.

Had the Hawks taken on Sprewell's contract or kept Robinson, their payroll would have exceeded $65 million had they chosen to resign Jason Terry.

Instead, the Hawks are looking at not only resigning JT, but also being able to use the MCE on a veteran that can give us more than Glenn was able to give the team.

[Guest]

There is no MCE out there to get now that is worthy?

Infact,after Jones/Barry/Peeler/Jackson are gone there

is nobody really worthy out there.

[Traceman]

The Hawks COULD have matched ANY offer to JT, whether they traded Dog for capspace or not. They COULD have traded NAZR for capspace, resigned JT and STILL not been over the cliff threshold. In fact, depending on what JT actually signs for, they may have been able to sign JT, keep both Dog and Nazr and STILL not go over the cliff threshold. They would have DEFINITELY paid luxury tax but I'm not sure they would have been over the cliff threshold and that is a BIG difference.

WHAT veteran is going to give us more than Dog gave us for the MCE? Which one? Stephen Jackson? I wouldn't hold my breath on that one. A guy who averaged 11.8 ppg and 3.6 rbg is not likely to adequately replace 20.8 ppg and 6.6 rbg. Besides, even if we want Jackson, I'm sure Cuban is willing to give him more than a 2 year deal. Are you prepared to give Jackson "Posey money?" In other words, are you willing to give him 4 yrs/$24 million? Because Cuban just might. No way in [censored] would I give Jacksdon a deal where he would be making in excess of $6 million in 05/06 when we could have capspace to go after a marquee FA.

[mrhonline]

Add up the Hawks' salaries with Big Dog and without JT. Add in the $7- $7.5 million JT will likely cost this year. Add in the cost of the SG the Hawks need. They were well over the luxury tax threshold. AOL didn't deny this, they simply considered it something that had to be sacrificed to put a winning team on the floor.

It didn't happen. The Glenn Robinson acquisition was a failure. Yes, a failure. 69 games is more than enough time for a team to gel. I watched this board all season long; listened to poster after poster say, "Just a few games and they'll turn it around. Just you wait." It never happened. The Glenn Robinson acquisition was a failure.

They had the opportunity to:

1. Move a chemistry problem.

2. Avoid the luxury tax.

3. Make the team more attractive to its potential buyer.

4. Match offers for JT - the heart and soul of this team.

As any astute GM would do, they traded Robinson - the least essential part of this team who could actually get something valuable in return. Regardless of how you spin the final games of the season, you can't deny that this team played at least AS WELL without Robinson as they did with him. He's was expendable.

Should we all sit around and moan (the loss of a player who gave up as many points as he scored)? I don't think so. Why? Because this team was not even playoff worthy in the Leastern Conference, and would have been even less so had JT moved elsewhere. The Hawks were (again) 26-43 in games that Robinson played in. Spread that out over a full season and that amounts to 31 wins.

If this year's team wins 31 games, I will consider the trade a success. Why? Because I seriously doubt that a lineup with Robinson, but without JT would be able to match that.

It's all about perspective.

[KB21]

Giving more than Glenn means more than just getting 20 points a game, because that's all Glenn gave.

It means playing defense. It means keeping the ball moving on offense. It means taking smart shots. It means doing some grunt work like diving after loose balls. It means being able to get out and run in the open floor. It means being able to handle the basketball without bouncing the [censored] thing off your foot as you try to make a drive to the basket.

All Glenn gave was 20 points because he stole shots from players. Ira Newble gave more to this team because he played defense, took smart shots, and sacraficed his body. And we lost him because of Robinson's contract as well.

[Traceman]

What part of your post refutes the fact that the Hawks COULD have signed JT to ANY amount up to the max and still kept Dog?

As for your numbers, the Hawks salaries WITH Big Dog and without JT would have been roughly $51.5 million. That is for 9 players. If we signed Willis to a vet minimum deal and DJ to a vet minimum deal, we were looking at around $53 million in salary before JT. Signing JT would have put us near $60 million. Yes, we would have been over the cliff threshold unless we traded for an ending salary. But we could have probably traded Nazr for an ending salary and not gone over the cliff threshold. The cliff threshold is going to be around $57 million.

We would have had a CHANCE to win if we had kept Dog. If Diaw could have taken over some of the ballhandling responsibilities for JT, helped distribute the ball and played good perimeter D, we had a CHANCE to win. Doesn't mean we WOULD have won, just that we had a CHANCE. Now, I dont' think we have a chance to win whether we resign JT or not.

We did not get ANYTHING valuable in return for Robinson. We got "capspace" and "flexibility." Let's see what those 2 things turn into.

It is comical to me to listen to all you guys act like Dog was the only one who didn't play D. Was I the only one watching JT get torched OVER AND OVER by his man last year? Was I the only one watching Reef get DESTROYED by his man last year? I guess so because Dog is the only one you guys talk about being a poor defender. It will be interesting to see who gets blamed for JT's and Reef's deficiencies on D now that Dog is gone.

You said:

"If this year's team wins 31 games, I will consider the trade a success. Why? Because I seriously doubt that a lineup with Robinson, but without JT would be able to match that."

That is your measure of success? Wow! There is NO DOUBT in my mind that the team could have won 31 games with Dog and without JT. Give us a solid, low budget, pass first PG (Mike Wilks) and we would have won 31 games without JT. We probably wouldn't be a playoff contender but we would have won 31 games. We won the only game that JT missed last year. On the road. At Philly. We hardly ever won on the road last year! Dog scored 30+ and shot the lights out while our pass first PG distributed the ball and didn't let AI go to the basket without challenging him. Was it a coincidence that Dog played great when he played with a pass first PG? Maybe. Maybe not. My point is that it was a TEAM chemistry issue and not a Dog issue. That chemistry issue COULD have been fixed by adding the proper supporting cast but now, I guess we'll never know.

You guys can sympathize with AOL and the Hawks' salary cap situation if you want. I don't. Hawks' management created this situation by making bad move after bad move. Now, they want to penalize the fans for their mistakes by putting a horrible team on the floor to save a liitle money? They want me to renew my season tickets when the team is going in the wrong direction just to avoid paying the luxury tax? I don't think so. I'll watch them on TV and I'll go see the better teams but unless they make some significant moves between now and opening day, the chances of me renewing my season tickets are getting smaller by the day.

[Traceman]

Theo averaged less than a board more per game than Dog and Theo is our starting Center. He average twice as many steals as Ira and almost as many as JT. He shot nearly 88% from the foul line. He did a lot of things well. He just never got credit for it.

Funny how Dog always gets accused of hogging the ball and taking ill-advised shots and yet he STILL shot a higher percentage than JT despite taking a lot more shots. In fact, Dog shot as poorly as he EVER has and he STILL shot a higher percentage than JT. Why is that?

[Diesel]

The Hawks GM has snowed you really good KB. You are like their fan club president.

I listen to you try to make their arguments... But really what do we have?

NOTHING.

There are really no MCE players that are worth the MCE now. I wonder what kind of Weed Knight was smoking when he said we can get Odom with the MCE Now?? Two things..... the Hawks don't intend to use the MCE and Odom makes as much as the MCE with his qualifying offer with the Clipps.

SJackson is Glover.

If we match JT's offer of 9.17 million per season, we are indeed stupid. JT is not worth it.

And imagine how life must suck for Reef.

He has gone to playing beside another 20 point per game scoring threat to playing beside a Rookie who was mediocre in the European league.

And you wonder why he was somewhat upset. Knight gave Reef that same Soft shoe stuff about possibilities. Knight needs to get off the crack. When Reef finds out all he gets is the same flawed PG that he has had for the last 2 years except this time there's no Grob and there's no Toni and there's no Lo.... Reef will probably be UPSET.

Atlanta is becoming LAC & LAC is becoming a contender.

Finally, have you paid attention to McDavid. I have no doubt that by midseason, we will have a new team filled with 2nd and 3rd year players. McDavid is out for profit. He will probably gut this team so that he can make a huge profit next season. What else can you say about a guy who would trade Kidd instead of paying him? What can you say about a guy who would break up Kidd, Mashburn, and Jackson....

KB, I guess you have replaced Walter as president of the GM's committee. Interesting, Walter went out with Babcock. I never thought about it that way, but the president of team Babcock is gone with Babcock. I guess that makes you the president of Team Knight. Because you can't see the [censored] job.

[KB21]

We could have had a chance to win with Big Dog?

How?

Again, someone show me some tangible evidence that this team was not only better with Big Dog last year, but better than they were the year before.

This is a guy who is the anti-team player. He couldn't get along with Ray Allen and Sam Cassell in Milwaukee. He didn't mesh with Shareef Abdur-Rahim and Jason Terry in Atlanta. He's not going to mesh with Allen Iverson in Philadelphia.

How are you going to win with him in the line up? Do you actually think he would buy into the fact that he needs to shoot a lot less than he does? Is he magically going to start playing defense? Is he magically going to start passing the ball to the open man instead of forcing a bad shot?

This team was never going to win with Big Dog, because as long as Big Dog was in the line up, he had the attitude that there were 4 players and then him on the court. You can't win unless all 5 players are playing as a team, and that will never happen with Glenn Robinson in the line up.

[Playmaker0017]

Trace,

"Funny how Dog always gets accused of hogging the ball and taking ill-advised shots and yet he STILL shot a higher percentage than JT despite taking a lot more shots. In fact, Dog shot as poorly as he EVER has and he STILL shot a higher percentage than JT. Why is that? "

The simple and logical answer is that JT plays guard and Loaf played the forward.

Forwards typically have a higher shot percentage than a guard.

Play.

[KB21]

Here you go.

Jason Terry took 1,141 shots. Of those shots, 431 were three point attempts. Roughly 38% of his total field goal attempts were three pointers.

Glenn Robinson took 1,248 shots. Of those shots 263 were three point attempts. Roughly 21% of his total field goal attempts were three pointers.

Looking a little deeper, Jason Terry took 710 two point shots. Glenn Robinson took 985 two point shots.

Jason Terry's shooting percentage on 2 point shots = 46%

Glenn Robinson's shooting percentage on 2 point shots = 45%

The three point shot effects JT's overall shooting percentage in an adverse way, even though he's a terrific three point shooter. It's not a coincidence that JT's highest overall shooting percentage came in a year where he took the least amount of three point shots per feild goal attempt.

[Traceman]

If Dog makes a higher percentage of his shots while taking more shots, why does it matter what position he plays?

Guards typically shoot a lower percentage than forwards because they typically shoot more perimeter shots. With Dog and JT, both take the majority of their shots from the perimeter.

Finally, Dog's FG% last season was an aberration. That was the worst he has EVER shot the ball as an NBA player. Before last season, he had NEVER shot less than 45% from the field. Even with last year's down season, he is still a career 46% shooter. In the 6 seasons prior to last year, he averaged right at 47% shooting. Did he all of a sudden forget how to shoot or is it just possible that he was not getting the ball in the right places enough last year?

[cyman3]

GROB shot .432

JT shot .428

few things i wanna say...

- we're fighting over .004.... thats a STUPID arguement to fight over, even worse than my "whos better: bulls/hawks" arguement. So suppose JT made 1 more shot every game (which theorectically is very possible) and attempted the same number of shots... his shooting percentage would probably be higher...

if about 25 of JT's shots went in instead of the other way, this discussion wouldnt even come up

- JT is a PG and GROB is a SF... how about u take a standard deviation and compare them to their respective positions? .428 is VERY GOOD for a PG but LOW for a CENTER, know what i mean?

while we're comparing...

yeah, JT shoots very poorly cuz Shaq is shooting .535

Kobe Bryant shouldnt even be shootin since hes shooting .432

get my point here?

[Traceman]

Here's a stat for you. Before JT was Dog's PG, he shot 47% from the field on average for EIGHT years. After JT became his PG, he shot 43% from the field. Therefore, JT obviously affected Dog's shooting % in a negative way. Watch Dog's FG% jumps back up to 46-47% next season while playing with Eric Snow.

[Guest]

So who would you keep Trace? Dog or JT.

If we rebuild Dog will be pointless because he'll

be aging soon.If we keep JT we lose a 20PPG

scorer.

[cyman3]

"Watch Dog's FG% jumps back up to 46-47% next season while playing with Eric Snow."

- GROB played in the same system his whole career and changed. His first season with a new team in his life with a losing coach + another coach + no other ball handler than JT and thats what he produced... or maybe hes forcing more than he used to... who knows?

i guess we'll have to wait this year and find out... if Dogs FG% goes back to 46-47% while scoring 20+... ur right, enuf is enuf- no more excuses... i guess we'll have to just wait and see... i have no idea whats gonna happen but i cant wait for the season...