Who here has expectations for Marvin?

[exodus]

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I would like him to develop the 3-ball, but not if it is going to hurt his overall efficiency as a shooter.

It isn't his efficiency as a shooter that i am concerned about. It is more of a spacing issue. If he is a 3 pt threat that will open up more space for smith and Horford inside.

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The tendency for guys who try to shoot 3s, is that they'll fall in love with that shot, instead of taking better shots

Marvin has issues but i don't see this ever being one of them. He is not one to force up contested perimeter shots and generally looks to drive if a guy is running to close out on him.

[TheTrueSiete]

Who's going to guide this offense where each player averages 14-20 ppg? Woody? Hahahahahaha.... But, for real, what's going on with our coaching staff? Who's going to be the X and O offensive coach that will lead our team to accomplish this "lofty" goal?

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[Guest]

D, I think we all know where you stand on Marvin. People are getting tired of hearing you brag about how good Marvin is going to be this year and get the most votes for the All-Star game, finish in the top 5 in terms of greatest MVP seasons of all-time, and win the community service award for his work with Spongebob. Everyone knows already D, let it go.

[Diesel]

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I would like him to develop the 3-ball, but not if it is going to hurt his overall efficiency as a shooter.

The tendency for guys who try to shoot 3s, is that they'll fall in love with that shot, instead of taking better shots ( Salim was notorious for this, and Smith too after he hit his first 3 ).

I think this is the whole problem with watching Marvin's stats. Marvin doesn't shoot the three. Doesn't attempt it. He only had 10 3 pt attempts and he's a SF. This is a really big problem. Sfs shoot threes. Maybe not at a blistering rate, but they shoot them.

I took the time to look at the stats for the top Sfs.. Marvin (after I removed some guys who were more PF than SF (ahead of him) turned out to be 20th. However, check it out.

PLAYER NAME, TEAM NAME GP PPG 3PM

3PA

3PM

3PA

3P%

1 LeBron James , CLE 75 30.0 1.5 4.8 113 359 .315

2 Carmelo Anthony , DEN 77 25.7 .8 2.1 58 164 .354

3 Richard Jefferson , NJN 82 22.6 .9 2.6 77 213 .362

4 Corey Maggette , LAC 70 22.1 1.1 2.9 78 203 .384

5 Ron Artest , SAC 57 20.5 1.5 3.9 84 221 .380

6 Caron Butler , WAS 58 20.3 1.1 3.2 66 185 .357

7 Rudy Gay , MEM 81 20.1 1.7 4.8 134 387 .346

8 Stephen Jackson , GSW 73 20.1 2.5 6.9 182 501 .363

9 Josh Howard , DAL 76 19.9 .9 2.8 67 210 .319

10 Andre Iguodala , PHI 82 19.9 1.2 3.7 101 307 .329

11 Paul Pierce , BOS 80 19.6 1.8 4.6 143 365 .392

12 Danny Granger , IND 80 19.6 2.1 5.3 171 423 .404

13 Hedo Turkoglu , ORL 82 19.5 2.0 5.1 166 415 .400

14 Gerald Wallace , CHA 62 19.4 1.1 3.6 71 221 .321

15 Mike Dunleavy , IND 82 19.1 2.0 4.7 165 389 .424

16 Rashard Lewis , ORL 81 18.2 2.8 6.8 226 553 .409

17 Luol Deng , CHI 63 17.0 .1 .3 8 22 .364

18 Peja Stojakovic , NOH 77 16.4 3.0 6.8 231 524 .441

19 Shawn Marion , MIA-PHX 63 15.4 1.0 3.1 66 198 .333

20 Marvin Williams , ATL 80 14.8 .0 .1 1 10 .100

There are no Sfs that are in Marvin's terrority as far as 3PA go. I mean 10 on the season isn't even trying to shoot 3s... that's more like there were 10 times I had the ball at the end of the qtr and I forced up a shot. So, you saying that you want him to improve his 3 pt shooting without messing up his FG% is a joke. It can't be done. He has had the luxury of not even having to try to hit a 3. If Gerald Wallace and Corey Maggette were to do what Marvin does, they would be shooting over .500 right now. There's nothing special about Marvin. He doesn't even play his position correctly.

[Diesel]

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I would like him to develop the 3-ball, but not if it is going to hurt his overall efficiency as a shooter.

It isn't his efficiency as a shooter that i am concerned about. It is more of a spacing issue. If he is a 3 pt threat that will open up more space for smith and Horford inside.

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The tendency for guys who try to shoot 3s, is that they'll fall in love with that shot, instead of taking better shots

Marvin has issues but i don't see this ever being one of them. He is not one to force up contested perimeter shots and generally looks to drive if a guy is running to close out on him.

You're right ex... Marvin doesn't have the confidence/aggressiveness to be a guy who gives himself a greenlight or who takes over a game. He'd rather defer to Mario West or Brian Butch.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

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Here are my expectations for Marvin next season

1) Score 16-17 points a night while shooting 47-48%

2) Take that jump hook he was using at the end of the year more

3) Improve on defense and boxing out

I don't think so. Let's face it, we're not going to have 4 16+ points/game players, Bibby, JJ Marvin and Smith. Someone has to give up shot opportunities and focus on helping the team in other ways. Not to mention, that I think most would hope Horford would get a few more offensive touches in the post. Anyone thinking that our strating 5 will all score 15 or more is being silly. Marvin is clearly a guy who is comfortable deferring, so I expect him to do that next season. I say Marvin will become more of a defensive presence while scoring closer to 14 points with 6 boards. And of course, he will be blistered on this board by guys who expect that we will in fact have 4 guys averaging 16+ points in the starting line-up while thinking that Horford should be right around 14-15 points per game.

I could easily see this breakdown for the Hawks next season:

JJ - 20 ppg

Smith - 17 ppg

Marvin - 16 ppg

Horford - 14 ppg

Bibby - 11 ppg

Chill - 11 ppg

Acie - 8 ppg

Zaza - 4 ppg

Rest of bench - 4 ppg

Total points : 105 ppg ( we averaged 103.5 ppg after the all-star break last season )

Of course, these totals will depend on if Woody makes it a point to give Acie more time. If he does, that'll cut into Bibby's point total and possibly raise Horford's, because Acie will get the post people the ball.

[Traceman]

It will be interesting to see how the ppg breaks down next year, particularly when you consider the following:

1) Bibby is in the last year of his contract and he knows that he will likely get more money next year if he puts up big numbers.

2) J Smoove is going to be trying to justify his contract by scoring more.

3) JJ is our first option and he will be expected to score as usual.

4) Horford is going to be afforded more opportunities in the low post per Woody.

5) Marv will likely be a RFA next year and he knows that stats will likely effect his bottom line.

It will be interesting to see how we play next year because some personal agendas could POSSIBLY impact how we play as a team.

What I HOPE to see next year is Marvin become the consistent 2nd scoring option on this team while shooting a high percentage because I think he has the talent to do that. I also hope he extends his range, rebounds a little better and that his D continues to improve.

I think Marvin has 20/7/3 in him down the road but I think 17/6 next year from him would be TERRIFIC under the circumstances and 14/6 would be acceptable.

[Diesel]

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D, I think we all know where you stand on Marvin. People are getting tired of hearing you brag about how good Marvin is going to be this year and get the most votes for the All-Star game, finish in the top 5 in terms of greatest MVP seasons of all-time, and win the community service award for his work with Spongebob. Everyone knows already D, let it go.

Fanatic..

I think you need to take me out of this. I have stated my expectation only once... Morevoer, I did not brag in doing it. If you're getting tired of me talking about stuff relative to the Hawks and the Hawks future.. then what the hell are you here for??? I asked people for their reasonable expectations for Marvin Being that this year coming a decision will have to be made on 1. If we will keep him. 2. How much do we sign him for. ... I think there needs to be some semblence of a place where when Marvin has or has not measured up, we can all agree that 1. He's worth the resign 2. He's not worth the resign. or 3. He should be traded before we get caught up.

I think honestly that it is the agenda of a lot of people on this board to not even want to have a rational, reasonable discussion on expectations but would rather live in a fantasy world as it pertains to Marvin and point the finger at those of us who would rather live in the real world and have expectations.

Your condescending post strikes me as cowardly.

So question

Do you have expectations for Marvin or not?

[Diesel]

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1) Bibby is in the last year of his contract and he knows that he will likely get more money next year if he puts up big numbers.

I couldn't read the rest of the post after seeing this...

Do you know that Bibby could become Chris Paul... lead us to the Championship game, become the MVP of the finals and we would still have a problem paying him more than he's making now??

Nobody is going to give an aging Bibby more than 15 Million dollars per year. The extension is just about totally off the table. If you believe that an above average season will get Bibby an extension... You're fooling yourself.

Bibby and Team Dime knows this. Bibby is not playing for his next contract... which is the good thing about having him. I think he will give us a better effort than last season, but it goes without saying that unless we have some great chemistry AND Law is just not able to fit in... Bibby will probably be traded before the deadline Or we will take him to free agency and try to get him to resign at a much lower cost (which is rare).

[Traceman]

So because the guy realizes that he can consistently knock down the midrange J and he decides to only shoot from that range, you want to hold that against him? Please! Do you realize how good Smoove would be if he could shoot it like Marv from midrange but he stopped taking 3's?

As for Magette and Wallace, they can't shoot from midrange OR 3 pt land.

[Diesel]

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So because the guy realizes that he can consistently knock down the midrange J and he decides to only shoot from that range, you want to hold that against him? Please! Do you realize how good Smoove would be if he could shoot it like Marv from midrange but he stopped taking 3's?

As for Magette and Wallace, they can't shoot from midrange OR 3 pt land.

If we were not the worst three point shooting team in the game what you said would really have some meaning. However, Because we're the worst three point shooting team in the game and Marvin only attempted 10 3 pters on the season... and he plays a position that requires a guy to shoot three pointers... Uhm... your argument is kinda weak. Marvin needs to play beside a PF like Dirk or Okur. A guy who will shoot the three. Otherwise Trace.. all we will do will watch JJ get double and triple teamed. Don't overrate Midrange shooting.

[bronnt]

I try to avoid these arguments about Marvin because I feel there are two sides-those who vastly overrate Marvin and those who vastly underrate what he brings to the team. But I should chime in with a couple of points.

First, I think Marvin's defense gets undervalued a bit. He can use his length to check smaller 3s and gets his hands on some balls at times. There's some stronger, bigger threes like Carmelo, Lebron, and Artest who Marvin will never be able to guard well. But he does work hard, and he is the second youngest player we have on the team. I can't rule out that he might actually get stronger and fill out more, which should let him play more physical. As it is, he does try hard and does a fairly decent job of keeping guys in front of him. He's average-to-slightly above average defensively.

Secondly, I would definately rather have Marvin than Gerald Wallace. If you look at the breakdown on their shooting, Marvin shoots a higher percentage on the inside-although he is assisted more. Wallace's jumpshooting is attrocious by comparison, where MArvin is pretty good. Wallace gets fouled more, but he's not a good foul shooter at all. And Marvin isn't bad at drawing fouls, and he's a GREAT foul shooter. And Wallace isn't exactly helping his team when he takes threes. His shooting isn't good enough to warrant taking those. It looks like Wallace scores a ton more than Marvin, but he also plays a lot more minutes-when you account for that, it's much closer. And he's been in the league 6 years already and is going to be 26-Marvin has been in the league for 3 and will be 22. Given that choice, I'd take Marvin.

[Teeareess]

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I try to avoid these arguments about Marvin because I feel there are two sides-those who vastly overrate Marvin and those who vastly underrate what he brings to the team.

yep. it's a lot of agenda and bias going on in all Marvin discussions here.

[EazyRoc]

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So because the guy realizes that he can consistently knock down the midrange J and he decides to only shoot from that range, you want to hold that against him? Please! Do you realize how good Smoove would be if he could shoot it like Marv from midrange but he stopped taking 3's?

As for Magette and Wallace, they can't shoot from midrange OR 3 pt land.

If we were not the worst three point shooting team in the game what you said would really have some meaning. However, Because we're the worst three point shooting team in the game and Marvin only attempted 10 3 pters on the season... and he plays a position that requires a guy to shoot three pointers... Uhm... your argument is kinda weak. Marvin needs to play beside a PF like Dirk or Okur. A guy who will shoot the three. Otherwise Trace.. all we will do will watch JJ get double and triple teamed. Don't overrate Midrange shooting.

We are not the worst three point shooting team in the game. There are a few teams that are worse than us, and even if we were it's because players who have no business taking 3s are taking them. Marvin will continue to improve on his game, and I can easily see him as a 16-18 ppg with 6-8 reb. next year. I expect his assists to go up slightly as Woodson starts demanding Marvin score more. Also, midrange shooting is very important in this league. Name a big time scorer in this league (that's not a big) that can't hit midrange jumpshots consistently ?

[EazyRoc]

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I try to avoid these arguments about Marvin because I feel there are two sides-those who vastly overrate Marvin and those who vastly underrate what he brings to the team. But I should chime in with a couple of points.

First, I think Marvin's defense gets undervalued a bit. He can use his length to check smaller 3s and gets his hands on some balls at times. There's some stronger, bigger threes like Carmelo, Lebron, and Artest who Marvin will never be able to guard well. But he does work hard, and he is the second youngest player we have on the team. I can't rule out that he might actually get stronger and fill out more, which should let him play more physical. As it is, he does try hard and does a fairly decent job of keeping guys in front of him. He's average-to-slightly above average defensively.

Secondly, I would definately rather have Marvin than Gerald Wallace. If you look at the breakdown on their shooting, Marvin shoots a higher percentage on the inside-although he is assisted more. Wallace's jumpshooting is attrocious by comparison, where MArvin is pretty good. Wallace gets fouled more, but he's not a good foul shooter at all. And Marvin isn't bad at drawing fouls, and he's a GREAT foul shooter. And Wallace isn't exactly helping his team when he takes threes. His shooting isn't good enough to warrant taking those. It looks like Wallace scores a ton more than Marvin, but he also plays a lot more minutes-when you account for that, it's much closer. And he's been in the league 6 years already and is going to be 26-Marvin has been in the league for 3 and will be 22. Given that choice, I'd take Marvin.

But if we take Wallace and Felton, we could be the Showtime Lakers!

[Diesel]

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I try to avoid these arguments about Marvin because I feel there are two sides-those who vastly overrate Marvin and those who vastly underrate what he brings to the team.

yep. it's a lot of agenda and bias going on in all Marvin discussions here.

Uhm... let me reveal this to you. Everybody here has an agenda.

[Diesel]

Didn't mean for this to breakdown to a referendum on Wallace.

Just plain and simple.. for the record, what do you expect of Marvin.

I think you have given some... before you sidetracked yourself with other discussions.

[Guest]

D I am just getting tired of seeing posts from you about Marvin in any aspect, as I feel other people on the board here are also tired of it. Everyone knows your opinion, but you continue to rehash it over and over.

I am on this board for discussion of new topics, not recurring topics. This is clearly a recurring thread, its boring and getting old.

You missed the point of my post, it actually had nothing to do with bragging. It was just meant as a contrast to your actual opinion of Marvin. It was more of a joke than an insult. And also, why should I answer your question when you never answer my questions?

[Diesel]

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So because the guy realizes that he can consistently knock down the midrange J and he decides to only shoot from that range, you want to hold that against him? Please! Do you realize how good Smoove would be if he could shoot it like Marv from midrange but he stopped taking 3's?

As for Magette and Wallace, they can't shoot from midrange OR 3 pt land.

If we were not the worst three point shooting team in the game what you said would really have some meaning. However, Because we're the worst three point shooting team in the game and Marvin only attempted 10 3 pters on the season... and he plays a position that requires a guy to shoot three pointers... Uhm... your argument is kinda weak. Marvin needs to play beside a PF like Dirk or Okur. A guy who will shoot the three. Otherwise Trace.. all we will do will watch JJ get double and triple teamed. Don't overrate Midrange shooting.

We are not the worst three point shooting team in the game. There are a few teams that are worse than us, and even if we were it's because players who have no business taking 3s are taking them. Marvin will continue to improve on his game, and I can easily see him as a 16-18 ppg with 6-8 reb. next year. I expect his assists to go up slightly as Woodson starts demanding Marvin score more. Also, midrange shooting is very important in this league. Name a big time scorer in this league (that's not a big) that can't hit midrange jumpshots consistently ?

OH...

You're right we are 28/30 in 3PTFGA... And 27/30 in 3PtFGM

So we obviously don't have a problem shooting the threes.

Back to reality.

We do have a problem shooting the threes and MW can be efficient all he wants close to the goal.. all that does is Spacing wise, defensive players can easily play off him and double our shooters. Part of the reason why Sfs make themselves available on the three point line is that in it's third decade, NBA players determined that putting a Sf on the three point line spreads the floor and allows players to work inside better and outside players can shoot without a hand in their face.

So what happens when Most teams have Sfs shooting 180 - 600 3 pters in a season and Marvin shows up with his 10... That puts a lot of pressure on the other players on this team to make up for that lack of spacing. So you have our PF (Smoove) hanging out shooting those shots he's not supposed to take.

Lastly. Midrange Shooting was defined as NOT important a long time ago. When basketball players became better defensive players, the Midrange shooter's era was over. Big Dog was the last midrange shooter who was able to do something... and that's because he had a lot of physicality to his game. He could get his shot off while being hit. Can Marvin do that?

The Midrange game was upgraded to either: 1. The three point threat. 2. The drive by. Go back into your basketball history and pull up Larry Bird and Scottie Pippen. They were the upgrade to the Sf position in this regard.

[Wurider05]

I mean he has decent numbers. Diesel this is JJ's team. Marvin is the third option. If the team was built around Marvin I would agree with you. I believe that if JJ wasn't here Marvin, Josh, and Smoove would probably be better players. Joe takes all of the shots, Joe gets a majority of the possessions. Marv does good considering he doesn't get 15-20 shots a game. You constantly talk about Maggette, Deng, etc but you are talking about guys who are the top options on their team. Think about what you are saying. My expectations are for him to give us 16-22 ppg 6-8 rbs. He definitely needs to get his assists up.