Can You Handle The Truth?

[AnnArborHawk]

Why is Smoove a risk and others are not? He's never shown one ounce of quit....

Obviously you don't watch road games :)

But seriously, there's no arguing that when Smith gets off to a bad start, he gets frustrated, starts putting up bad shots, gets sat on the bench, and then buries his head in his hands and pouts.

To me, that's quitting. That's why I'm on board with the Hawks FO in terms of limiting the guaranteed money. I'd be fine with offering him something incentive-laden that gets him to where he wants to be, but it has to be structured to try to elicit the right behaviors, not pulling up for 3s and leaving your man unguarded near the basket to go for the weakside block. Structuring incentives to encourage production but while not encouraging these other behaviors (which can lead to inflated stats - not necessary quality production) would be difficult to do.

[mrhonline]

If they honestly believe that Smith is only worth $9 million then they are idiots.

Agreed.

I can handle the loss of Childress. He wanted and got much more than he was worth to the Hawks.

Smith is a different story altogether. Barring a major injury, his value with hold.

[Admin]

Hoopshype is showing $8 million for Camby next season so don't hold your breath on an apology. Even if sham is right you are still clueless.

You are all over Horford's sac because he averaged 9.7 rebounds a game but don't give Camby much credit for averaged 13.1 rebounds. What's wrong with this picture?

ESPN also has Camby making $10 million. Yeah, I'm the clueless one.

I'm dying to hear how I'm all over Horford's sac. What a sad world you must live in to have to beat down on one player in order to make another sound good. In your world saying something about Marvin means saying something crappy about Childress. In your world saying something good about Smoove means crapping on Horford. Some of us are able to see the good and bad in each player and I pity you that you aren't capable of such thought.

Oh and for what it's worth, I like Camby, I just think it's interesting that the Clippers decided to pay him $10 million rather than paying Smoove $12-13 million considering how much younger he is.

By the way, how are you doing in the voting for most annoying poster on Hawksquawk? Pretty well the last time I looked.

[Admin]

Really?

Season Team Lg Salary

1996-97 Toronto Raptors NBA $2,434,000

1997-98 Toronto Raptors NBA $2,799,240

1998-99 New York Knickerbockers NBA $3,164,000

1999-00 New York Knickerbockers NBA $5,250,000

2000-01 New York Knickerbockers NBA $5,750,000

2001-02 New York Knickerbockers NBA $7,300,000

2002-03 Denver Nuggets NBA $6,750,000

2003-04 Denver Nuggets NBA $7,250,000

2004-05 Denver Nuggets NBA $8,500,000

2005-06 Denver Nuggets NBA $9,150,000

2006-07 Denver Nuggets NBA $8,800,000

2007-08 Denver Nuggets NBA $11,250,000

Career (may be incomplete) $78,397,240

Just out of curiosity, where did you get those numbers?

[BigDirty]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/

[exodus]

ESPN also has Camby making $10 million. Yeah, I'm the clueless one.

I'm dying to hear how I'm all over Horford's sac.

LOL actually i got you confused with jamescrocket somewhere along the line. I am not even sure where but i have been arguing with that clown too much obviously. Sorry

[Admin]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/

Thanks, I didn't realize they had salary data on there as well.

[Admin]

LOL actually i got you confused with jamescrocket somewhere along the line. I am not even sure where but i have been arguing with that clown too much obviously. Sorry

No problem, thanks for the apology.

[coachx]

I will only add this.

1. I am dissapointed with the ASG tactics in resigning Smith but I'm not pissed off YET.

2. Losing Chillz due to him wanting more then $6.5 mill per is no problem to me.

3. I like the Evans signing

4. I want Smith back badly b/c his upside is exciting.

Now I have to play devils advocate b/c the Smoove love on here is alwayse strong. Occaisonly I have to visit other boards so I can stay grounded on the whole Smoove debate and keep my emotion of being a fan of Smith in place and still look at the side from his skeptics without casting stones.

1. While it can be argued who is the better "player" between Smith, Deng, Iggy, and Okefor I will say this. It doesn't matter who the best "player" is. How do you decide who is the better player when they play different positions and have different strengths and weaknesses ? All that matters is who can play a certain position the best in the NBA. Smith is by far the most "raw" of these players and needs more polish then the others. Deng and Iggy are perfect SFs. They do everything you want a SF to do. Deng and Iggy have prototypical size for their position and a prototypical skill set (Smith has neither of these 2 things going for him for his position). I would also argue that both Deng and Iggy are better at their 2nd best position (SG) then Smith is at his 2nd best position (SF). Deng and Iggy can shoot, drive and defend the perimeter which is essential for their position. Their games are pretty complete and polished when compared to Smith who has holes when it come to the simplest basics of the game for a post player such as position defense, boxing out, and polishing a post move or two.

2. Okefor too is a different animal when making comparisons though he is an easier comparison to make b/c they both play in the post. However, Okefor can play the center position and that in itself makes his value go up since we all know from expierence of watching our Hawks how hard it is to get a NBA worthy center. Okefor plays the post like a pro is supposed to play with position defense and he still gets 2 blocks a game. Okefor has averaged at over 10 rpg every year in the league and shot better then 53% the last 2 seasons. Those are the things you expect out of a $12 mill a year post player. Is a "post player "who can't guard the center position, who has never averaged over 8 rpg, commits more turnovers, and who has never shot close to 50%from the field deserve the same money ? Probably not. Right ?

3. I see Smith as a bigger risk then either Deng, Iggy, or Okefor b/c these players play within themselves and make fewer BB IQ mistakes then Smith when it come to shot selection and turn overs, plus your basic attitude and demeanor. Basically Okefor, Iggy, and Deng are able to play within a structured system. Iggy and Deng have shown they can be counted on being their teams #1 scorers. Okefor has proved he can anchor a defense as a center and consistently average between 10-13 rpg. While Smith does many things well I don't think any one forcast him ever being a #1 option of an NBA playoff team like Deng and Iggy are forcasted to do (or may already be) and he can't play center like Okefor can.

Smith is still relying too much on raw atheltic ability. Both Deng and Iggy are far more advanced when it come to actual basketball skills and basketball IQ. Same with Okefor when it comes to the skill set of a post player...he can play postion defense better then most post players in the league while Josh is still just beginning to figure that out and is by fay the better rebounder with a superior FG%.

Now as a Smith fan who sees him every game it easy to see how good he can be if he only listened and wised up and played within himself. It is also gut wrenching to watch him at times ........that is what is so frustrating.

Edited August 6, 2008 by coachx

[crimedog]

not pulling up for 3s and leaving your man unguarded near the basket to go for the weakside block.

As an aside...

I don't disagree that he needs to work on his shot selection but he doesn't take pull-up 3s. He takes 3s because he is the kickout guy for JJ isos, especially when Chil was in the game. I'd like it if he didn't take them but he isn't bringing the ball up and jacking it.

As far as the "weakside blocking" he does so much of, he should be placed on a weaker offensive player for that reason... thats how the Spurs do it with Duncan, then you put him on the guy he matches up best with in crunch time. He has gotten a lot better at staying with his man until the last possible moment but our problem was that we had literally no one at the point of attack so every quick player in the league could penetrate and Smith was our only good shotblocker so it was often a question of who to leave open for a layup.

The defensive numbers have shown that Smith is a much improved defender over the past couple of years though.

[mrhonline]

I will only add this.

If that's the short version... (Not sure what this guy is doing, but it looked appropriate).

[crimedog]

I will only add this.

1. I am dissapointed with the ASG tactics in resigning Smith but I'm not pissed off YET.

2. Losing Chillz due to him wanting more then $6.5 mill per is no problem to me.

3. I like the Evans signing

5. I want Smith back badly b/c his upside is exciting.

Now I have to play devils advocate b/c the Smoove love on here is alwayse strong. Occaisonly I have to visit other boards so I can stay grounded on the whole Smoove debate and keep my emotion of being a fan of Smith in place and still look at the side from his skeptics without casting stones.

1. While it can be argued who is the better "player" between Smith, Deng, Iggy, and Okefor I will say this. It doesn't matter who the best "player" is. How do you decide who is the better player when they play different positions and have different strengths and weaknesses ? All that matters is who can play a certain position the best in the NBA. Smith is by far the most "raw" of these players and needs more polish then the others. Deng and Iggy are perfect SFs. They do everything you want a SF to do. Deng and Iggy have prototypical size for their position and a prototypical skill set (Smith has neither of these 2 things going for him for his position). I would also argue that both Deng and Iggy are better at their 2nd best position (SG) then Smith is at his 2nd best position (SF). Deng and Iggy can shoot, drive and defend the perimeter. Their games are pretty complete and polished when compared to Smith who has holes when it come to the simplest basics of the games.

2. Okefor too is a different animal when making comparisons. He can play the center position and that in itself makes his value go up since we all know from expierence of watching our Hawks how hard it is to get a NBA worthy center. Okefor plays the post like a pro is supposed to play with position defense and he still gets 2 blocks a game. Okefor has averaged at over 10 rpg every year in the league and shot better then 53% the last seasons. Those are the things you expect out of a $12 mill a year post player. Is a "post player who can't guard the center position, who has never averaged over 8 rpg, commits more turnovers, and who has a worse shooting percentage deserve the same money ? Probably not.

3. I see Smith as a bigger risk then either Deng, Iggy, or Okefor b/c these players play within themselves and make fewer BB IQ mistakes then Smith when it come to shot selection and turn overs, plus your basic attitude and demeanor. Basically Okefor, Iggy, and Deng are able to play within a structured system. Iggy and Deng have shown they can be counted on being #1 scorers. Okefor has proved he can anchor a defense as a center and consistently average between 10-13 rpg. While Smith does many things well I don't think any one forcast him ever being a #1 option of an NBA playoff team like Deng and Iggy are forcasted to do (or may already be) and he can't play center like Okefor can.

Smith is still relying too much on raw atheltic ability. Both Deng and Iggy are far more advanced when it come to actual basketball skills and basketball IQ. Okefor can play postion defense better then most post players in the league while Josh is still just beginning to figure that out.

A couple things. This is obviously a completely subjective matter so we can put weights and values in different places.

I look at it the opposite as you, for one, I think all of these guys have proven that they are not go-to scorers in an ideal situation. Smith though, if you remember, had that 2 month(ish) stretch in 06-07 where Joe went out and he was the go-to guy for our team a did basically 20-10.

More importantly, you look at Smith's rawness as opposed to those guys as a bad thing. My thought is that if he already has a greater impact on the game than any of them, and by most measures he does, than why does it matter whether he is raw or polished... if anything it means that he has even more room to get even better then them.

... and your list was 1, 2, 3, 5

Edited August 6, 2008 by crimedog

[CAIRO NOLE]

This is my first post would like to say that I have been reading post's on this site for a long time now. I am just fed up with this I wish they would make a move allready.

[Admin]

I will only add this.

1. I am dissapointed with the ASG tactics in resigning Smith but I'm not pissed off YET.

2. Losing Chillz due to him wanting more then $6.5 mill per is no problem to me.

3. I like the Evans signing

5. I want Smith back badly b/c his upside is exciting.

Now I have to play devils advocate b/c the Smoove love on here is alwayse strong. Occaisonly I have to visit other boards so I can stay grounded on the whole Smoove debate and keep my emotion of being a fan of Smith in place and still look at the side from his skeptics without casting stones.

1. While it can be argued who is the better "player" between Smith, Deng, Iggy, and Okefor I will say this. It doesn't matter who the best "player" is. How do you decide who is the better player when they play different positions and have different strengths and weaknesses ? All that matters is who can play a certain position the best in the NBA. Smith is by far the most "raw" of these players and needs more polish then the others. Deng and Iggy are perfect SFs. They do everything you want a SF to do. Deng and Iggy have prototypical size for their position and a prototypical skill set (Smith has neither of these 2 things going for him for his position). I would also argue that both Deng and Iggy are better at their 2nd best position (SG) then Smith is at his 2nd best position (SF). Deng and Iggy can shoot, drive and defend the perimeter. Their games are pretty complete and polished when compared to Smith who has holes when it come to the simplest basics of the games.

2. Okefor too is a different animal when making comparisons. He can play the center position and that in itself makes his value go up since we all know from expierence of watching our Hawks how hard it is to get a NBA worthy center. Okefor plays the post like a pro is supposed to play with position defense and he still gets 2 blocks a game. Okefor has averaged at over 10 rpg every year in the league and shot better then 53% the last seasons. Those are the things you expect out of a $12 mill a year post player. Is a "post player who can't guard the center position, who has never averaged over 8 rpg, commits more turnovers, and who has never shot close to 50%from the field deserve the same money ? Probably not.

3. I see Smith as a bigger risk then either Deng, Iggy, or Okefor b/c these players play within themselves and make fewer BB IQ mistakes then Smith when it come to shot selection and turn overs, plus your basic attitude and demeanor. Basically Okefor, Iggy, and Deng are able to play within a structured system. Iggy and Deng have shown they can be counted on being #1 scorers. Okefor has proved he can anchor a defense as a center and consistently average between 10-13 rpg. While Smith does many things well I don't think any one forcast him ever being a #1 option of an NBA playoff team like Deng and Iggy are forcasted to do (or may already be) and he can't play center like Okefor can.

Smith is still relying too much on raw atheltic ability. Both Deng and Iggy are far more advanced when it come to actual basketball skills and basketball IQ. Okefor can play postion defense better then most post players in the league while Josh is still just beginning to figure that out.

Now as a Smith fan who sees him every game it easy to see how good he could be if only listened and wised up and play within himself ........that is what is so frustrating.

Well said! That seems like a very fair and objective analysis. There's no doubt in my mind that Smith can be among the NBA elite and much more valuable than Okafor, Deng, or Iggy, but he's not there yet and the only thing that will get him there is getting his mind right. I hope he does, but it's a huge gamble to pay him now for what we hope will happen.

[Admin]

This is my first post would like to say that I have been reading post's on this site for a long time now. I am just fed up with this I wish they would make a move allready.

Welcome aboard! I think we're all in agreement with you there.

[coachx]

A couple things. This is obviously a completely subjective matter so we can put weights and values in different places.

I look at it the opposite as you, for one, I think all of these guys have proven that they are not go-to scorers in an ideal situation. Smith though, if you remember, had that 2 month(ish) stretch in 06-07 where Joe went out and he was the go-to guy for our team a did basically 20-10.

More importantly, you look at Smith's rawness as opposed to those guys as a bad thing. My thought is that if he already has a greater impact on the game than any of them, and by most measures he does, than why does it matter whether he is raw or polished... if anything it means that he has even more room to get even better then them.

... and your list was 1, 2, 3, 5

Ya, I went back and edited the 1,2,3,5 thing.

I totally agree that Smith is the most raw out of the goup and that does give him the most room to grow but it also make him the biggest risk while at the same time having the highest reward. That is whats so frustrating. To Smith's credit his 3 point shot attempts have gone down a bit every year and I hope it continues. Maybe a full year of Bibby and another year of maturity will help out his turnovers.

I was playing Devil's advocate a bit b/c I thought the thread needed that. It was just too one sided. One sided debates and threads are never any fun are they ? Just though the pot needed to be stirred since there is realy no "new" news to discuss.

I'd rather keep Smith then get Prince by far but if it comes to that I don't think I'll be as heart broken as I would have been a month ago.

[AnnArborHawk]

As an aside...

I don't disagree that he needs to work on his shot selection but he doesn't take pull-up 3s. He takes 3s because he is the kickout guy for JJ isos, especially when Chil was in the game. I'd like it if he didn't take them but he isn't bringing the ball up and jacking it.

As far as the "weakside blocking" he does so much of, he should be placed on a weaker offensive player for that reason... thats how the Spurs do it with Duncan, then you put him on the guy he matches up best with in crunch time. He has gotten a lot better at staying with his man until the last possible moment but our problem was that we had literally no one at the point of attack so every quick player in the league could penetrate and Smith was our only good shotblocker so it was often a question of who to leave open for a layup.

The defensive numbers have shown that Smith is a much improved defender over the past couple of years though.

OK, well I shouldn't have said "pulling up for 3s" because I was more just referencing his general taking of 3s, not pulling up off the dribble. I gather from your post that you're suggesting Smiths shortcomings are due to bad coaching. The fact that he is the kickout guy is one thing, but his job as the kickout guy isn't to take that 3. Why would Woody pull him from a game for doing such things if that's what how he designed the play to work? I know Woody's a below average coach, but he's not mentally challenged.

As far as the weakside blocks go, I agree Smith should be matched up with the lesser offensive player, but even a below average offensive player can make a bucket when left open 5-feet from the basket. He also cheats on the perimeter for steals. I'm not saying he shouldn't be doing those things, but he doesn't seem to have the smarts (yet) to strategically choose when to take that risk. Not saying he won't get there, but his lack of BBIQ is much-discussed on this board.

Edited August 6, 2008 by StlAtlHawks

[crimedog]

OK, well I shouldn't have said "pulling up for 3s" because I was more just referencing his general taking of 3s, not pulling up off the dribble. I gather from your post that you're suggesting Smiths shortcomings are due to bad coaching. The fact that he is the kickout guy is one thing, but his job as the kickout guy isn't to take that 3. Why would Woody pull him from a game for doing such things if that's what how he designed the play to work? I know Woody's a below average coach, but he's not mentally challenged.

As far as the weakside blocks go, I agree Smith should be matched up with the lesser offensive player, but even a below average offensive player can make a bucket when left open 5-feet from the basket. He also cheats on the perimeter for steals. I'm not saying he shouldn't be doing those things, but he doesn't seem to have the smarts (yet) to strategically choose when to take that risk. Not saying he won't get there, but his lack of BBIQ is much-discussed on this board.

No, I'm certainly not blaming it on Woody. I disagree that Woody pulled him from games for it though.

You will find no argument from me that Smith has shot selection problems on the perimeter. My thought though, is that he has shown that he can score well when positioned on the baseline or in the high post with or without the ball, most players habitually put in situations where they don't play well. Now I said I don't blame it on Woody because Woody had a single reliable sub - a wing player who NEVER played on the wing. He figured that Chil inside and Smith outside gave more utility than visa versa and he might be right because Chil might be even less likely to get something done from the perimeter.

On the help defense, we need him to go for those blocks. Those blocks are the reason why our D is actually respectable with him in the game and atrocious without, its a layup line. Like I said, his improvement on D has been reflected in the numbers for how the other teams score when he is on the court.

He certainly needs to be a better decision maker on offense but one way to help with that is to keep him out of situations where bad decisions are easy to make. Dwight Howard is a very bad decision maker too, but he is put in a situation where his options are simpler (he still doesn't know how to pass though) so its not as obvious. I think that Smith will be in that situation too this year, but thats just me.

[ATLBob]

I will only add this.

1. I am dissapointed with the ASG tactics in resigning Smith but I'm not pissed off YET.

2. Losing Chillz due to him wanting more then $6.5 mill per is no problem to me.

3. I like the Evans signing

4. I want Smith back badly b/c his upside is exciting.

Now I have to play devils advocate b/c the Smoove love on here is alwayse strong. Occaisonly I have to visit other boards so I can stay grounded on the whole Smoove debate and keep my emotion of being a fan of Smith in place and still look at the side from his skeptics without casting stones.

1. While it can be argued who is the better "player" between Smith, Deng, Iggy, and Okefor I will say this. It doesn't matter who the best "player" is. How do you decide who is the better player when they play different positions and have different strengths and weaknesses ? All that matters is who can play a certain position the best in the NBA. Smith is by far the most "raw" of these players and needs more polish then the others. Deng and Iggy are perfect SFs. They do everything you want a SF to do. Deng and Iggy have prototypical size for their position and a prototypical skill set (Smith has neither of these 2 things going for him for his position). I would also argue that both Deng and Iggy are better at their 2nd best position (SG) then Smith is at his 2nd best position (SF). Deng and Iggy can shoot, drive and defend the perimeter which is essential for their position. Their games are pretty complete and polished when compared to Smith who has holes when it come to the simplest basics of the game for a post player such as position defense, boxing out, and polishing a post move or two.

2. Okefor too is a different animal when making comparisons though he is an easier comparison to make b/c they both play in the post. However, Okefor can play the center position and that in itself makes his value go up since we all know from expierence of watching our Hawks how hard it is to get a NBA worthy center. Okefor plays the post like a pro is supposed to play with position defense and he still gets 2 blocks a game. Okefor has averaged at over 10 rpg every year in the league and shot better then 53% the last 2 seasons. Those are the things you expect out of a $12 mill a year post player. Is a "post player "who can't guard the center position, who has never averaged over 8 rpg, commits more turnovers, and who has never shot close to 50%from the field deserve the same money ? Probably not. Right ?

3. I see Smith as a bigger risk then either Deng, Iggy, or Okefor b/c these players play within themselves and make fewer BB IQ mistakes then Smith when it come to shot selection and turn overs, plus your basic attitude and demeanor. Basically Okefor, Iggy, and Deng are able to play within a structured system. Iggy and Deng have shown they can be counted on being their teams #1 scorers. Okefor has proved he can anchor a defense as a center and consistently average between 10-13 rpg. While Smith does many things well I don't think any one forcast him ever being a #1 option of an NBA playoff team like Deng and Iggy are forcasted to do (or may already be) and he can't play center like Okefor can.

Smith is still relying too much on raw atheltic ability. Both Deng and Iggy are far more advanced when it come to actual basketball skills and basketball IQ. Same with Okefor when it comes to the skill set of a post player...he can play postion defense better then most post players in the league while Josh is still just beginning to figure that out and is by fay the better rebounder with a superior FG%.

Now as a Smith fan who sees him every game it easy to see how good he can be if he only listened and wised up and played within himself. It is also gut wrenching to watch him at times ........that is what is so frustrating.

Thanks for advocating coach.

I sometimes wonder what the threads on this board would look like if Smoove was the #2 pick and Marv was the #17.

Wouldn't it be cool to have an interactive database that showed in depth analysis of strengths and weaknesses for each player, along with analysis of areas they will likely improve in and one that they likely will not. (I don't mean like DX at all, something far cooler, with video clips illustrating points side-by-side with statistical analysis and varied scout opinions. So if a guy has a 7 foot wingspan, you can click to actually see a picture of him being measured, and if a guy sets poor screens, you can watch a video wherein someone analyzes actual screens and what makes them poor.

Seriously, why doesn't ESPN have this already?

[ATLBob]

(Not sure what this guy is doing, but it looked appropriate).

Looks like your emoticon is quite the air floutist.