Hawks Second Round Picks

[crimedog]

20% is actually worse than I thought it would be. And it gets worse the further you go into the draft because of all the stupid "stash in Europe" picks that have an even worse chance of success.

Also, don't forget that Royal Ivey is still in the league, and figures to be a role player in Philly, just as he was in Milwaukee and Atlanta. So that helps Knight's numbers out a bit. Not that I care about helping Knight out, it's just that it's a little silly to blame him for 2nd round failures when the guy drafts Shelden Williams at #5.

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I still stand by my assertion that having an NBDL draft would yield results at least equal to the crappy 15% rate (or whatever it is) of 2nd rounders lately. Plus, then you'd actually get to see guys in extended minutes, and not just in practices.

Or maybe stop the draft at 46. (Lottery teams get 2 picks). And then anyone who didn't get drafted could declare themselves eligible for the NBDL draft... Just a thought, that's all.

Suggestions probably make sense but the point remains that we have yet to get a productive player. Royal would be the biggest "hit" I guess.

I think the Shelden pick really underscores our problem though. We grabbed, in the high lottery, the type of player that a lot of teams get in the late first/second/undrafted and for the most part, those guys outperformed him.

If BK knew how to fill a bench, he'd have used that 5 for talent and gone after the Powe/Millsap/CSmith type of players (or even a Paul Davis) that were available in the second round AFTER we blew a pick on Solo.

Still, I find that we are judging BK and our organization against good GMs that knew how to cull the second rounders for talent which isn't really fair because we aren't willing to pay for the type of person who can do a good job and the disjointed ownership group prevents us from taking risks on less proven but more innovative types.

[Cwell]

Paul Milsap was the guy I wanted in the 2nd that year. I wanted Marcus Williams in the first. I got pissed off when we drafted Shelden but wanted to break something when we took Solo right after. Still though,guys find gems because they give them a chance. Woody doesn't give those players decent chances. Millsap would have been glued to the bench here as well as Monta etc.

[mrhonline]

You gotta look at it like this -

Because the Hawks drafted a 4th/5th big type in the lottery (Shelden), they didn't need to worry about their 2nd rounder. Plus, they didn't want their 2nd rounder to be better than Shelden, or they would've looked bad.

When you look at it from that perspective...

...you can't imagine Sund being any worse at drafting.

[Diesel]

I confess this is a rant.

Has anyone else noticed that the Hawks might have the worst record of any team for selecting second round talent. The list is amazing.

Solomon Jones, Salim, Cenk Akol, Donta Smith, Royal Ivey, Travis Hansen, D. Anderson, Terence Morris, Hanno Mottola, Scoonie Penn, the list goes on and on.

The bad news ist we draft these guys and then put them on the bench where they waste a roster spot with little to no production. They need to learn to unload these picks or use them on foreign players who can develop without taking up a roster spot and money.

It's one thing to take a flyer in the second round, all the teams do. Its another thing to keep them longer than necessary because you drafted them and want them to succeed so you look smart.

Like Solomon Jones, we are married to the guy because we drafted him. The only thing that I have noticed that has gotten bigger in his game the last two year is his butt. Seriously, his legs and arms are skinny as ever but his butt has expanded.

Salim was another waste which was evident by the end of his firt year. The kid is just a chunker. Why in the world the Hawks had him on the team other than to have an evern worse record is beyond me.

Maybe we learned last year by not having any pics. Maybe we dont' need any pics, we just sign decent proven veteran players and pay them a reasonable salary. We already have a few arguably start players in Johnson, Horford and Smith and some nice additional pieces.

Hawk88

How can you be mad with David Andersen or Cenk Akol or Travis Hansen for that purpose? They are great pickups. It's not their fault that we haven't had the money to bring them in.

[Swish]

Cenk Akyol...5.9 ppg in Europe and an egg in international competition.

David Andersen...6 ppg and 3.5 rpg in Beijing.

Andersen+Akyol=good pickups??????

Edited August 26, 2008 by Swish

[renfruzetz]

What kills me is that I'm no hoops guru but at the time I would've taken Duhon in a NY minute. Either Craig Smith or Ryan Gomes who, while a bit undersized, were extremely productive in the Big East. Perfect backups. Pretty crappy looking back at it.

[AHF]

It isn't that unusual to be aweful with second round draft picks which is why I just think this issue is a completely secondary issue to the Chris Paul/Deron Williams; Shelden Williams; etc. issues. Here are the best guys selected by a few other teams since 2003:

Charlotte - Kyle Weaver

Denver - Vincent Yarbrough (counting Powe towards Boston)

Houston - Steve Novak

LAC - Daniel Ewing (Jordan could do well)

Mem - Robert Archibald (Barnes was cut by Memphis and never played for them and doesn't count)

Mia - Pape Sow

etc.

[DrReality]

i think this is a great topic to vent frustrations about having very little to post about during the 'dog days' of summer. will be another month before we get much going . . . . . so second rounders are a suitable thing to dump on.

[mrhonline]

To be fair, I hate the 2nd round of the draft year-round. :)

[Hawk88]

It isn't that unusual to be aweful with second round draft picks which is why I just think this issue is a completely secondary issue to the Chris Paul/Deron Williams; Shelden Williams; etc. issues. Here are the best guys selected by a few other teams since 2003:

Charlotte - Kyle Weaver

Denver - Vincent Yarbrough (counting Powe towards Boston)

Houston - Steve Novak

LAC - Daniel Ewing (Jordan could do well)

Mem - Robert Archibald (Barnes was cut by Memphis and never played for them and doesn't count)

Mia - Pape Sow

etc.

I don't think it's so incredible how bad the pics have been. It's just the handing onto them and wasting roster spots that chaps my ass.

You know it's bad when ROYal Ivey is one of the bright spots.

Hawk88

[crimedog]

It isn't that unusual to be aweful with second round draft picks which is why I just think this issue is a completely secondary issue to the Chris Paul/Deron Williams; Shelden Williams; etc. issues. Here are the best guys selected by a few other teams since 2003:

Charlotte - Kyle Weaver

Denver - Vincent Yarbrough (counting Powe towards Boston)

Houston - Steve Novak

LAC - Daniel Ewing (Jordan could do well)

Mem - Robert Archibald (Barnes was cut by Memphis and never played for them and doesn't count)

Mia - Pape Sow

etc.

Lets break this down a little. Charlotte's 08' pick was Weaver, there only other second rounder since 03 (mind you they didn't exist during that draft) was Bernard Robinson. They've had exactly one pick to judge by... not relevant at all.

Similar situation with Denver... you are giving Powe to Boston, fair enough but other than that they've had 2 picks since 03', both blown but one was the 46 in 03' and one the 52 in 05'. Out of our 7 picks in that span, only one was later than 46. Denver has used those assets in other ways, thats why they don't have the picks. We haven't, thats why we had them.

Houston, if you are giving Powe to Boston, you have to give Landry to Houston.

LAC, good point. Like us, a lot of high second rounders, like us... a team that it is always bad. The fact that we have a similar record in second round drafting to the Clippers does not mean that we are doing well in that department.

I don't think Memphis has had but 1 pick since 03' and it was later than all but one of ours.

I'll give you Miami but even they haven't had the volume or value of pick that we have.

Look, the point is that very few teams have had as many picks as us over that time and I doubt that any team has had the combination of volume and value that we have. We've had 7 picks over the period we are talking about (03-07) and 6 of them have been in the first half of the round where you are more likely to get a good player (by the way, if we want to play the odds game, that should be factored in). Its not fair to compare us to a team that has one or two picks in that period or a team like Detroit that has had a few picks but the best of which was 56 (and they still snagged Amir who they liked enough to ink to a nice deal).

The teams that don't have picks use them as assets. Teams that do have a lot of high picks should at least be able to pull a productive player or two. In essence we wasted assets in a way that few other teams have over this period. If you aren't going to get a good player out of those picks, don't stockpile them.

Edited August 27, 2008 by crimedog

[AHF]

Lets break this down a little. Charlotte's 08' pick was Weaver, there only other second rounder since 03 (mind you they didn't exist during that draft) was Bernard Robinson. They've had exactly one pick to judge by... not relevant at all.

Similar situation with Denver... you are giving Powe to Boston, fair enough but other than that they've had 2 picks since 03', both blown but one was the 46 in 03' and one the 52 in 05'. Out of our 7 picks in that span, only one was later than 46. Denver has used those assets in other ways, thats why they don't have the picks. We haven't, thats why we had them.

Houston, if you are giving Powe to Boston, you have to give Landry to Houston.

LAC, good point. Like us, a lot of high second rounders, like us... a team that it is always bad. The fact that we have a similar record in second round drafting to the Clippers does not mean that we are doing well in that department.

I don't think Memphis has had but 1 pick since 03' and it was later than all but one of ours.

I'll give you Miami but even they haven't had the volume or value of pick that we have.

Look, the point is that very few teams have had as many picks as us over that time and I doubt that any team has had the combination of volume and value that we have. We've had 7 picks over the period we are talking about (03-07) and 6 of them have been in the first half of the round where you are more likely to get a good player (by the way, if we want to play the odds game, that should be factored in). Its not fair to compare us to a team that has one or two picks in that period or a team like Detroit that has had a few picks but the best of which was 56 (and they still snagged Amir who they liked enough to ink to a nice deal).

The teams that don't have picks use them as assets. Teams that do have a lot of high picks should at least be able to pull a productive player or two. In essence we wasted assets in a way that few other teams have over this period. If you aren't going to get a good player out of those picks, don't stockpile them.

You can add more teams to break down if you want. Many of these teams don't have the volume of picks for a simple reason. They don't really care about them very much. I guess you can either take that to mean that these teams don't value second round picks and count them or you can say that their lack of volume is grounds to disregard them. I guess you could also combine all the teams below into a single entity and evaluate it that way and see a whole bunch of nada from those guys.

New Jersey - Best Player Who Played a Game for Them: Hassan Adams

New Orleans - (Bass counts for Dallas according to this thread): Marcus Vinicius Vieira de Souza

Phoenix - DJ Strawberry

Portland - Taureen Green (1.6 ppg)

Sacramento - Ricky Minard

Toronto - PJ Tucker (1.9 ppg)

Teams just don't count on getting real players in the second round for good reason. It is a huge coup when you can pull it off and GMs who do should be lauded for that. I just don't think that BK's record is all that out of line of what other teams have gotten for their second round picks.

[AtLaS]

Taking Royal Ivey over Duhon was downright retarded. And, I do blame BK for that. EVERYONE knew that Ivey and Duhon would both bring great defense into the NBA. However, Ivey had never played point for a significant period of time in his LIFE and we knew he wouldn't be a successful PG in the NBA. Meanwhile, Duhon was a proven leader for 4 years, and a legit PG in college who had won a championship, played in TONS of big games, was clutch, and most of all could run a team. Neither had great jumpshots. Why take Ivey after we had already taken Diaw, Childress, Smith, and Donta Smith in our previous 4 picks?

The only thing Ivey was going to bring was defense, and we knew that. We also knew Duhon would bring D, but the possibility of so much more.

[AtLaS]

How can you be mad with David Andersen or Cenk Akol or Travis Hansen for that purpose? They are great pickups. It's not their fault that we haven't had the money to bring them in.

I'm guessing this is a joke.

[crimedog]

Teams just don't count on getting real players in the second round for good reason. It is a huge coup when you can pull it off and GMs who do should be lauded for that. I just don't think that BK's record is all that out of line of what other teams have gotten for their second round picks.

Teams that don't have picks don't have them because they use them in trades. To my knowledge (and I admit I could be wrong), you can't just not pick. Thats why some teams have had a lot of second rounders and some haven't.

Beyond that, I wouldn't call it a HUGE coup when you can find a real player in the second round. To do it consistently? Sure, thats tough... but when you have a lot of picks in the 30s and early forties like we have, you really have the chance to go after guys that slipped out of the first.

I agree with the sentiment that BKs second round wastes weren't what made him bad but it was certainly a mark against him that he couldn't even get lucky and find a productive player with 6 high second rounders and one late one.

We had more good picks than most teams over that period so it would reason that we'd have close to the highest chance to get a good player, right? We didn't though. You make it seem as though there was one good player per draft and we just missed him. Lets make a list of player more productive than Royal Ivey drafted in the second round between 03-07 (leaving out guys like Boozer, Redd, or Arenas from previous years and guessing a little on the 07 guys).

Kapono, Walton, Blake, Green, Zaza, Bogans, Bonner, Mo Williams, James Jones, Korver, Varejao, Duhon, Ariza, Bass, Turiaf, Ellis, Lou Williams, Blatche, Gomes, Amir Johnson, Craig Smith, Gibson, Millsap, Powe, Landry, Davis, Gray, Sessions, Lasme...

Most of these guys were available with the high picks we had if we'd wanted them. Smart teams target these guys and make moves to bring them in. If a team doesn't see a player they like, they trade the pick. The fact of the matter is that we had a better chance to land a good portion of these guys than any other team and we didn't get any of them.

Edited August 27, 2008 by crimedog