Most of you will ignore this, but Flip was huge in this win.

[mrhonline]

He forced the Raptors to honor his scoring ability, and his +/- lead the team I believe.

Hard to win when you're basically playing 4 on 5, but the Hawks did. I'll take it.

[Rick]

You are right there, he did lead the team with +11. I haven't yet seen the game, (these afternoon games are on too early here), so I had a look at the boxscore and noticed that Flip led the +/-, but also noticed that Bargnani had +8 in 42 mins. So in the six minutes he wasn't on the court we outscored them by 11.

Also interesting that Ukic had 5 turnovers in only 25 mins, yet he still had +7.

Hopefully, I'll get to see the game later today.

Cheers

Rick

[TruJerz]

He forced the Raptors to honor his scoring ability, and his +/- lead the team I believe.

Hard to win when you're basically playing 4 on 5, but the Hawks did. I'll take it.

yea alot of ppl on here dont like Murray but he's been big in alot of games for us this year so far. when he's hot, he is as good as a scorer as anyone on this team..they would rather have Law playing, which i can understand why but Murray is better and does more good than bad 4 us

[exodus]

Murray took 7 threes, making one. I wouldn't be so quick to give credit to a guy who scored 12 points on 13 shots.

[Guest]

Murray took 7 threes, making one. I wouldn't be so quick to give credit to a guy who scored 12 points on 13 shots.

Ignoring his defense I see. You do realize there is some reason why he lead the team in +/- right?

[exodus]

Ignoring his defense I see. You do realize there is some reason why he lead the team in +/- right?

You do realize that mrh specifically mentioned his scoring, right? I didn't notice him mention murray's D. maybe you could point out where i missed it.

Who was it that murray played such great d on?

I pay more attention to +/- over the course of a season, not one game.

[mrhonline]

Murray took 7 threes, making one. I wouldn't be so quick to give credit to a guy who scored 12 points on 13 shots.

Box score observation only.

[exodus]

Box score observation only.

Huh? i watched the game and was wondering why he kept jacking 3s. he took more 3s today than he has in any game this season even though he was off. How is that making the defense honor his scoring ability?

[JJFAN4LF]

Most of the 3's were open though. They weren't forced shots.

All I know is that if I see a wide open Murray from the 3 point line, I would want him to take it.

Murray did do good this game. He missed a lot of open jumpers but he was one of the few positives in the game today.

[exodus]

Most of the 3's were open though. They weren't forced shots.

All I know is that if I see a wide open Murray from the 3 point line, I would want him to take it.

Murray did do good this game. He missed a lot of open jumpers but he was one of the few positives in the game today.

i am not saying he played bad. What i don't get is how missing open 3s is forcing the D to honor his scoring ability. After all the Raps were missing their best interior defender, JO.

This wasn't even one of Flips better games.

[DrReality]

He has his role on the team, it's when he does not play within that role that irks me.

[AtLaS]

Flip was definitely not huge in this game IMO. And +/- for one game just doesn't mean much. Just because he was in the game while the team made a run doesn't mean he's the reason we made the run. He had an average game and didn't shoot well.

[High5]

Hardly "huge," but he was helpful. And I don't get how he forced the Raptors to respect him when he was WIDE open on all those 3's.

[Guest]

Flip was definitely not huge in this game IMO. And +/- for one game just doesn't mean much. Just because he was in the game while the team made a run doesn't mean he's the reason we made the run. He had an average game and didn't shoot well.

So then the team won in spite of Murray's performance? The +/- stat gives a fair assessment of how the team played when a player was in the game, it is a very telling stat as to how you affect the team. But I guess we should ignore team statistics then huh? Just focus on shooting percentages and that will tell the whole story right?

[dalamchops]

watched the raptor's broadcast... their announcers repeatedly said how horrible Flip was playing defensively. (could not guard roko, and put in horrible situations guarding Bargnani)

[High5]

So then the team won in spite of Murray's performance? The +/- stat gives a fair assessment of how the team played when a player was in the game, it is a very telling stat as to how you affect the team. But I guess we should ignore team statistics then huh? Just focus on shooting percentages and that will tell the whole story right?

I'm not a big fan of +/- over an entire season, but using it for a single game is just silly. Chris Bosh was -7 while Roko Ukic was +7. What does that mean? You could draw a number of different things from that. Yes it tells you how the team played while that player was in the game, but it doesn't necessarily tell you how that player affected the team. For instance, when Joe gets hot and starts doing work by himself on offense it's going to help everyone's +/-.

[AtLaS]

So then the team won in spite of Murray's performance? The +/- stat gives a fair assessment of how the team played when a player was in the game, it is a very telling stat as to how you affect the team. But I guess we should ignore team statistics then huh? Just focus on shooting percentages and that will tell the whole story right?

I'm not a big fan of the +/- stat unless it's over a huge sample size. Even then you have to watch how it's used because there are so many factors. For one game, I just don't like it. I'm not talking about shooting percentage even though he shot 4-13, I watched the game and he was average. I just don't see how anyone could think he was "huge" for us, because he wasn't IMO.

[Atlantaholic]

Flip Murray's defense was terrible. One of his worst defensive efforts of the season. His offense was just as bad. Lucky for him Roko Ukic can't dribble a basketball because whenever Roko drove without dribbling of off his leg he got right to the rack, with little to no resistance from Flip. The Toronto Raptor announcers made fun of Flip in the third quarter for his pathetic defensive effort.

The only thing he did good all game was hit that one three towards the end of the game. Other than that he was probably the second worst Hawks performer after Solomon Jones today (Actully Maurice Evens was probably as bad or worse).

I'm actually a Flip fan, and I think he has had some solid games. Anyone who watched this game though could tell you in a second that this was probably one of the worst 5 or 10 games he has had all year. The team was carried all game by Smoove, Bibby, and Joe... at no point did any other player really have a positive impact on the game... hence the low scoring.

The +/- stat is pretty meaningless if used on a single game basis btw.. saying a player had a good game because his +/- was the highest on the team FOR ONE GAME doesn't necessarily mean anything. In this case it is definitely an aberration since Flip played terribly on both sides of the floor.

[Atlantaholic]

So then the team won in spite of Murray's performance? The +/- stat gives a fair assessment of how the team played when a player was in the game, it is a very telling stat as to how you affect the team. But I guess we should ignore team statistics then huh? Just focus on shooting percentages and that will tell the whole story right?

The reason the team outscored Toronto more when Flip was in the game had nothing to do with his performance and everything to do with the fact that he got most of his minutes in the second half when Toronto couldn't hit the broad side of a barn and JJ, Bibby, and Smoove started to play better... You are attributing the fact that our team was playing better when Flip played to his performance when in reality the fact our players played better with him in the game was just a mere coincidence... The dude missed as many shots as he had points, turned the ball over twice while managing just 3 assists in 35 minutes, not to mention he was more or less abused on defense anytime Toronto decided take a break from standing around and taking hideous long range contested shots and actually attack him.

Edited January 20, 2009 by Atlantaholic

[Peoriabird]

The reason the team outscored Toronto more when Flip was in the game had nothing to do with his performance and everything to do with the fact that he got most of his minutes in the second half when Toronto couldn't hit the broad side of a barn and JJ, Bibby, and Smoove started to play better... You are attributing the fact that our team was playing better when Flip played to his performance when in reality the fact our players played better with him in the game was just a mere coincidence... The dude missed as many shots as he had points, turned the ball over twice while managing just 3 assists in 35 minutes, not to mention he was more or less abused on defense anytime Toronto decided take a break from standing around and taking hideous long range contested shots and actually attack him.

I m convinced that Hawks fans and many posters on this board don't know what they are looking at when watching pro basketball. As evident by the undeserved credit given to players following a victory and the undeserved blame following a lost. It was clear to me after watching that Toronto game that Toronto's poor shooting had nothing to do with Atlanta's stellar defense rather, it had everything to do with Toronto's incredibly low basketball IQ.