Joe and Finishing

[benhillboy]

I have been known to go on a rant concerning this topic, which I am very passionate about, but I 'll keep it short and sweet.

Joe has more skills than many outsiders know and is one of the most underrated on-ball and man defenders in the league. Three-ball stroke sweet as honey. But as a guy blessed with a 6'7, 240 lb frame, I feel that Joe is arguably the worst/ weakest/ least explosive finisher in the league at his size and skill set, leading to less fouls drawn, missed oppurtunities at the line, less pressure on the Defense, less motivational plays, etc, etc. There are about 15-20 players I could name around his size and smaller who finish higher, harder, and more frequently at the rack (no one quite has a frame like Joe's, with Carmelo and Pierce most comparable at 6'8, 230 and 6'7, 235, respectively). This observation over his years in Atlanta are becoming increasingly problematic to me, seeing as how he caught alley-oops, routinely challenged big men at the rack, and finished fast breaks in Phoenix until his horrific eye socket injury. Then poof, the max contract, new city, rarely seen with his hands around the rim banging bodies. I think Flip is invaluable to this squad, because he drives hard and challenges at the iron, something our starting backcourt can't/ won't do.

Does anyone else feel/ see the same? If anyone says they saw Joe dunk in traffic in a Hawks jersey, I need hardcore video evidence, and I'll eat my words, because I've maybe seen it once.

Edited January 24, 2009 by benhillboy

[Plainview1981]

Three-ball stroke sweet as honey

Then why is his shooting so mediocre? He is probably under 43% after tonight's game and only 34% in 3's.

[PureGreatness]

i like joe but he isnt going to get better than what he was his 2nd year here. if he continues to decrease next season in his play than the hawks may want to get a younger athletic SG who can do almost everything joe can do offensively(better said than done) if joe wants to much money. but joe fits this team perfectly.

[HawksBalla]

Then why is his shooting so mediocre? He is probably under 43% after tonight's game and only 34% in 3's.

Why is he shooting so mediocre? Easy.

He's gassed. You cant play someone 40+ every night for 2+ years and not expect it to affect them. He's mentally and physically exhausted. This is 100% Woody's fault.

[Traceman]

I have been known to go on a rant concerning this topic, which I am very passionate about, but I 'll keep it short and sweet.

Joe has more skills than many outsiders know and is one of the most underrated on-ball and man defenders in the league. Three-ball stroke sweet as honey. But as a guy blessed with a 6'7, 240 lb frame, I feel that Joe is arguably the worst/ weakest/ least explosive finisher in the league at his size and skill set, leading to less fouls drawn, missed oppurtunities at the line, less pressure on the Defense, less motivational plays, etc, etc. There are about 15-20 players I could name around his size and smaller who finish higher, harder, and more frequently at the rack (no one quite has a frame like Joe's, with Carmelo and Pierce most comparable at 6'8, 230 and 6'7, 235, respectively). This observation over his years in Atlanta are becoming increasingly problematic to me, seeing as how he caught alley-oops, routinely challenged big men at the rack, and finished fast breaks in Phoenix until his horrific eye socket injury. Then poof, the max contract, new city, rarely seen with his hands around the rim banging bodies. I think Flip is invaluable to this squad, because he drives hard and challenges at the iron, something our starting backcourt can't/ won't do.

Does anyone else feel/ see the same? If anyone says they saw Joe dunk in traffic in a Hawks jersey, I need hardcore video evidence, and I'll eat my words, because I've maybe seen it once.

JJ is nowhere near as explosive or athletic as he once was (whether it be due to injury or whatever) and as a result, his game has changed over the years to compensate for that. His days of being the explosive leaper that he was in college are long gone. He has compensated for his loss of explosiveness with added strength and skill. He reminds me a lot of Steve Smith in the way that he has reinvented himself.

[crimedog]

For one, Joe isn't a bad finisher. Like many people on this site you are going off a short memory instead of cold, hard facts. Joe finishes as a pretty decent clip for his position, he doesn't go inside particularly often and he rarely dunks, but he is a good finisher when he decides to go inside.

Joe obviously doesn't like to dunk anymore since that injury and I don't blame him. His face is still saggy because of that and its probably still in the back of his mind. Since his legs being too tired from overuse is the reason he loses accuracy, I wouldn't expect him to jam too often anyway.

A lot of it is also in the way we use Joe. If we want him to use his strength, we need to surround him with shooters and get him the ball inside the 3pt arc. It is silly to expect him to routinely take it inside and finish with contact when he's bringing the ball up the court and being asked to initiate the play - there aren't many wings that routinely get inside AND face pressure baseline to baseline and the wings that do that are much better athletes than Joe (Lebron, Wade) or operate in the triangle which is a unique offense in that it can get the ball to any player in a post position (Kobe, who also happens to be a much better athlete than Joe).

[Traceman]

For one, Joe isn't a bad finisher. Like many people on this site you are going off a short memory instead of cold, hard facts. Joe finishes as a pretty decent clip for his position, he doesn't go inside particularly often and he rarely dunks, but he is a good finisher when he decides to go inside.

Joe obviously doesn't like to dunk anymore since that injury and I don't blame him. His face is still saggy because of that and its probably still in the back of his mind. Since his legs being too tired from overuse is the reason he loses accuracy, I wouldn't expect him to jam too often anyway.

A lot of it is also in the way we use Joe. If we want him to use his strength, we need to surround him with shooters and get him the ball inside the 3pt arc. It is silly to expect him to routinely take it inside and finish with contact when he's bringing the ball up the court and being asked to initiate the play - there aren't many wings that routinely get inside AND face pressure baseline to baseline and the wings that do that are much better athletes than Joe (Lebron, Wade) or operate in the triangle which is a unique offense in that it can get the ball to any player in a post position (Kobe, who also happens to be a much better athlete than Joe).

LeBron, Kobe and Wade are also the 3 best players in the world right now. JJ is good but he is not as good as those guys.

[Admin]

For one, Joe isn't a bad finisher. Like many people on this site you are going off a short memory instead of cold, hard facts. Joe finishes as a pretty decent clip for his position, he doesn't go inside particularly often and he rarely dunks, but he is a good finisher when he decides to go inside.

Joe obviously doesn't like to dunk anymore since that injury and I don't blame him. His face is still saggy because of that and its probably still in the back of his mind. Since his legs being too tired from overuse is the reason he loses accuracy, I wouldn't expect him to jam too often anyway.

A lot of it is also in the way we use Joe. If we want him to use his strength, we need to surround him with shooters and get him the ball inside the 3pt arc. It is silly to expect him to routinely take it inside and finish with contact when he's bringing the ball up the court and being asked to initiate the play - there aren't many wings that routinely get inside AND face pressure baseline to baseline and the wings that do that are much better athletes than Joe (Lebron, Wade) or operate in the triangle which is a unique offense in that it can get the ball to any player in a post position (Kobe, who also happens to be a much better athlete than Joe).

Yes sir that's absolutely the way I feel as well. There's no doubt in my mind that the only problem with Joe right now is that he's tired and I really hope that if nothing else maybe the All-Star weekend will get him some rest, which is why I hope he's not voted in by the coaches.

[Swish]

Yes sir that's absolutely the way I feel as well. There's no doubt in my mind that the only problem with Joe right now is that he's tired and I really hope that if nothing else maybe the All-Star weekend will get him some rest, which is why I hope he's not voted in by the coaches.

I agree with Dolfan here, and I also want to point out that "benhillboy" is a welcome addition to Hawksquawk. Thought provoking, knowledgeable, AND grammatically/phonetically correct?!?! What is this world coming to?

[Admin]

I agree with Dolfan here, and I also want to point out that "benhillboy" is a welcome addition to Hawksquawk. Thought provoking, knowledgeable, AND grammatically/phonetically correct?!?! What is this world coming to?

Yep welcome addition indeed and he might be ahead of what your post pace was for a newbie Swisher.

[Swish]

Yep welcome addition indeed and he might be ahead of what your post pace was for a newbie Swisher.

Heh, that would be a hefty pace to follow but he is definitely ahead in the quality department :)

[Admin]

Heh, that would be a hefty pace to follow but he is definitely ahead in the quality department :)

Nah don't sell yourself short man you're a valued member of Hawksquawk and you bring a unique viewpoint to the site.

[coachx]

Why is he shooting so mediocre? Easy.

He's gassed. You cant play someone 40+ every night for 2+ years and not expect it to affect them. He's mentally and physically exhausted.

Ding, Ding, Ding, Ding, Ding !

We have a winner ! I totally agree.

Not only does he lead the league in minutes, he is also expected to carry the load offensively AND its his job to guard the oppositions best perimeter player (even if its a PG). Its not like he is playing 40 mpg but taking defense off to stand next to Jason Kapono at the 3 point line............he is guarding Calderon or Chirs Paul bringing the ball up the court and/or allstar SG's who average 25 ppg every night.

Plus he is alt east 15 pounds heavier then he used to be. It also seems he has developed plantar faciatis (or some stress reaction) in his feet which has robbed him of his explosiveness coupled with the added weight. Maybe he does not have this problem but he sure seems like he is dealing with some chronic foot issue. Last year it was his calf.......2 years ago he had a calf contusion that cost him the last 21 games of the season.

Rest him 6 minutes in the 1st half and 6 minutes in the 2nd half..............then we will see the "old Joe" to close out games for us once again.........it will also lengthen his career.

Edited January 26, 2009 by coachx

[macdaddy]

Nah don't sell yourself short man you're a valued member of Hawksquawk and you bring a unique viewpoint to the site.

Mods can we ban these posts? I don't understand it and its making me scared.

[Antmillennium]

I have been known to go on a rant concerning this topic, which I am very passionate about, but I 'll keep it short and sweet.

Joe has more skills than many outsiders know and is one of the most underrated on-ball and man defenders in the league. Three-ball stroke sweet as honey. But as a guy blessed with a 6'7, 240 lb frame, I feel that Joe is arguably the worst/ weakest/ least explosive finisher in the league at his size and skill set, leading to less fouls drawn, missed oppurtunities at the line, less pressure on the Defense, less motivational plays, etc, etc. There are about 15-20 players I could name around his size and smaller who finish higher, harder, and more frequently at the rack (no one quite has a frame like Joe's, with Carmelo and Pierce most comparable at 6'8, 230 and 6'7, 235, respectively). This observation over his years in Atlanta are becoming increasingly problematic to me, seeing as how he caught alley-oops, routinely challenged big men at the rack, and finished fast breaks in Phoenix until his horrific eye socket injury. Then poof, the max contract, new city, rarely seen with his hands around the rim banging bodies. I think Flip is invaluable to this squad, because he drives hard and challenges at the iron, something our starting backcourt can't/ won't do.

Does anyone else feel/ see the same? If anyone says they saw Joe dunk in traffic in a Hawks jersey, I need hardcore video evidence, and I'll eat my words, because I've maybe seen it once.

I agree with you 100%. That's what I've been saying. He needs to attack the basket more and use his physical size to his advantage. He plays pretty weak for somebody that is 240 pounds. I love him when his shot is on, but I hate him when his shot is off, because he refuses to get to the freethrow line.

[JackB1]

Ding, Ding, Ding, Ding, Ding !

We have a winner ! I totally agree.

Not only does he lead the league in minutes, he is also expected to carry the load offensively AND its his job to guard the oppositions best perimeter player (even if its a PG). Its not like he is playing 40 mpg but taking defense off to stand next to Jason Kapono at the 3 point line............he is guarding Calderon or Chirs Paul bringing the ball up the court and/or allstar SG's who average 25 ppg every night.

Plus he is alt east 15 pounds heavier then he used to be. It also seems he has developed plantar faciatis (or some stress reaction) in his feet which has robbed him of his explosiveness coupled with the added weight. Maybe he does not have this problem but he sure seems like he is dealing with some chronic foot issue. Last year it was his calf.......2 years ago he had a calf contusion that cost him the last 21 games of the season.

Rest him 6 minutes in the 1st half and 6 minutes in the 2nd half..............then we will see the "old Joe" to close out games for us once again.........it will also lengthen his career.

I totally agree, Joe looks sluggish and tired most of the time lately. Why is it that we all see it, but our coach doesn't? Joe is so quiet and soft spoken, he won't complain. He will keep pushing until he gets injured. The problem is that Woodson won't rest him unless we are up by 25 points and how often does that happen?

[coachx]

I totally agree, Joe looks sluggish and tired most of the time lately. Why is it that we all see it, but our coach doesn't? Joe is so quiet and soft spoken, he won't complain. He will keep pushing until he gets injured. The problem is that Woodson won't rest him unless we are up by 25 points and how often does that happen?

Remember last year when he hit the wall and his calf flared up. He wore a sleeve on his calf for a couple of weeks.........I guess to help prevent him from straining it worse. Two years ago he missed 21 games b/c of a calf contusion.

Well, last night the sleeve was back on his calf. In fact this time he had 2 sleeves, one for each calf. Not a good sign.

Edited January 27, 2009 by coachx

[coachx]

Does anyone else feel/ see the same? If anyone says they saw Joe dunk in traffic in a Hawks jersey, I need hardcore video evidence, and I'll eat my words, because I've maybe seen it once.

Dude, I think he read your post. Did you seem him in the 2nd half of last nights Miami game try to dunk in some one's face ? I think it was Haslem. He just barely missed the dunk but drew the foul. First time I've seen him come that close to dunking in traffic in a really long time. Maybe its just coincidence but he sure was getting in the paint a lot last night.