Hold the presses!

[Diesel]

So Hawksquawk is silent about ARod's steroid usage?

you know what I say...

Give that man an asterisk.

:beer:

[coachx]

Agreev with you 100% !

A-Rod, Big Mac, and Bonds all go in the steroid record book.

Edited February 8, 2009 by coachx

[Admin]

Silent? I just now read about it on ESPN and came here to post about it. Jeez talk about overreacting Diesel.

As with Clemens I'm surprised that A-Rod has used steroids but this will be a lesson for me, I'll never assume that any player has always been clean again.

See how I did that Diesel, I admitted AGAIN that I was wrong about a player using steroids. You should try that with Barry since you seem to think he's innocent.

[Diesel]

Silent? I just now read about it on ESPN and came here to post about it. Jeez talk about overreacting Diesel.

As with Clemens I'm surprised that A-Rod has used steroids but this will be a lesson for me, I'll never assume that any player has always been clean again.

See how I did that Diesel, I admitted AGAIN that I was wrong about a player using steroids. You should try that with Barry since you seem to think he's innocent.

I seem to think that there is not any good evidence proving that Barry Used. Notice, his case depends on the testimony of Anderson. If you were in Barry's shoes and they brought up urine samples that everybody had access to, you to would say that the urine samples have been compromised. Needless to say, I want to see how the rest of Arod's career is beheld.

[Admin]

I seem to think that there is not any good evidence proving that Barry Used. Notice, his case depends on the testimony of Anderson. If you were in Barry's shoes and they brought up urine samples that everybody had access to, you to would say that the urine samples have been compromised. Needless to say, I want to see how the rest of Arod's career is beheld.

What about when Bonds said "I used the clear and the cream". Was that not good evidence? As far as A-Rod is concerned he's probably just as hated by fans as Bonds and at best he'll be hated just as much, but I suspect many more will hate him now.

[scottt]

I do not care about these folks using steroids even though everyone tells me that I should care. i view steroids as little more than another type of medical advance. Lets be honest--- asprin is a "performance enhancing drug". If it were not then no one would take it. If I have a headache then i take an asprin so my headache goes away and I perform better in my job.

[Admin]

My only real question here is why haven't we heard about this before since it was 2003 when he failed the test. Okay so there were no rules against it then and that's fine but why haven't we heard about it? If it's because it wasn't against the rules then why are we hearing about it now?

[Popeye]

Who cares, let them use steroids. People like the long ball anyways..:line dance:

[Diesel]

My only real question here is why haven't we heard about this before since it was 2003 when he failed the test. Okay so there were no rules against it then and that's fine but why haven't we heard about it? If it's because it wasn't against the rules then why are we hearing about it now?

I believe it is because the IRS strong armed the testing lab used by MLB, took the samples... having no real ability to keep the chain of custody right and they pretty much guessed whoose urine was whoose.

Like I have said previously, it could have been Lyle Azado's urine that they had in their possession... nobody knows. Moreover, when one lab tested Bond's urine, he came up negative. When the second lab tested it many months later (using the same method)... he came up positive.

It's a setup.

[Diesel]

What about when Bonds said "I used the clear and the cream". Was that not good evidence? As far as A-Rod is concerned he's probably just as hated by fans as Bonds and at best he'll be hated just as much, but I suspect many more will hate him now.

Did Bonds say "I used the clear and the cream"? or are you putting words in his mouth. I think he said I may have used it.... I seem to remember something about flax seed oil.

The point is look at how much work has gone into trying to catch Barry. Somebody leaked sealed grand jury testimonies. IRS raided a private lab facilities and strong armed urine samples. They've thrown his friend in jail twice to get him to testify.

No evidence.

Now they have showcased some of the legally piss poor urine samples ever. It could have been sothron's urine.

As a taxpayer, that should piss you off.

[DrReality]

With the money they are making you can keep it under wraps for a while . . . . . . and buy the latest stuff to enhance your performance and stay ahead of the ability to test for it.

For the love of the game, they have besmirched it.

[Eddielives]

Who is really surprised that A-Rod used steroids? The sport is tainted and will be until they have a fool proof way of testing all these athletes to eliminate all possibility of performance enhancing drugs.

A question for Diesel. All of the legal mumbo jumbo aside, do you believe that Bonds used steroids? Yes or no?

[AHF]

Well, this is timely. I have to say I am not remotely surprised on this. My only surprise is if A-Rod has stopped used performance enhancers or simply switched to ones that cannot be currently detected (HGH, etc.).

Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, A-Rod, Palmeiro, Clemens, etc. all these guys should have their records flagged and should not be HOF eligible unless they open a separate wing for the "steroid era" players. Within the context of cheaters, they are no doubt HOFers who outperformed their cheating brethren. In fact, at least Bonds, Clemens and A-Rod would have had good shots at the HOF without the drugs (Bonds for sure; A-Rod is the toughest to tell).

[NJHAWK]

I seem to think that there is not any good evidence proving that Barry Used. Notice, his case depends on the testimony of Anderson. If you were in Barry's shoes and they brought up urine samples that everybody had access to, you to would say that the urine samples have been compromised. Needless to say, I want to see how the rest of Arod's career is beheld.

I think Bonds head got so much bigger by him putting his thumb in his mouth and holding his breath so his baseball cap could levitate in the dugout.

[Diesel]

Who is really surprised that A-Rod used steroids? The sport is tainted and will be until they have a fool proof way of testing all these athletes to eliminate all possibility of performance enhancing drugs.

A question for Diesel. All of the legal mumbo jumbo aside, do you believe that Bonds used steroids? Yes or no?

Yes.

But I also believe in a fair trial and due process. Just because there's a strong public belief that Bonds used, doesn't mean that the court system should have the ability to waive it's standards and falsify evidence. When you do stuff like that, you corrupt the whole moral fabric of what this nation and our laws are built on.

[Diesel]

Well, this is timely. I have to say I am not remotely surprised on this. My only surprise is if A-Rod has stopped used performance enhancers or simply switched to ones that cannot be currently detected (HGH, etc.).

Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, A-Rod, Palmeiro, Clemens, etc. all these guys should have their records flagged and should not be HOF eligible unless they open a separate wing for the "steroid era" players. Within the context of cheaters, they are no doubt HOFers who outperformed their cheating brethren. In fact, at least Bonds, Clemens and A-Rod would have had good shots at the HOF without the drugs (Bonds for sure; A-Rod is the toughest to tell).

I don't think you can go there either. I mean, how do you define performance enhancement. The context keeps changing. I remember hearing Mike Schmidt talk about the prevalence of amphetamines in his day (same day as Hank Aaron). Schmidt said that a lot of players would take them to "make it through". At the time, they were not banned by the league... Neither was steroids until 2003. The point is that I don't think you can go back and repeal the rules on one substance and not do it for all enhancers.

[AHF]

I don't think you can go there either. I mean, how do you define performance enhancement. The context keeps changing. I remember hearing Mike Schmidt talk about the prevalence of amphetamines in his day (same day as Hank Aaron). Schmidt said that a lot of players would take them to "make it through". At the time, they were not banned by the league... Neither was steroids until 2003. The point is that I don't think you can go back and repeal the rules on one substance and not do it for all enhancers.

I would absolutely go there. To be clear, however, I would not go after anyone who was using a legal substance before it was banned by the game.

If a player legally used steroids before 1991, I wouldn't do anything to them because steroids hadn't been banned by MLB until 1991.

If you do it after the ban is in place and you are stupid enough to get caught, that is on you and you get the full force of whatever I can do to you (which isn't much). Just because I can't catch everyone won't stop me from punishing those I do catch.

[Admin]

I would absolutely go there. To be clear, however, I would not go after anyone who was using a legal substance before it was banned by the game.

If a player legally used steroids before 1991, I wouldn't do anything to them because steroids hadn't been banned by MLB until 1991.

If you do it after the ban is in place and you are stupid enough to get caught, that is on you and you get the full force of whatever I can do to you (which isn't much). Just because I can't catch everyone won't stop me from punishing those I do catch.

It wasn't until 2003 I believe that they started punishing people for using steroids, so before that what incentives were there for players to not use steroids if they couldn't get in trouble for it? I realize that they shouldn't have done something that was banned but it's hard to not myself in their shoes and see how they could say why shouldn't we do it since we can't get in trouble for it.

No doubt that anyone who took steroids should have an asterisk next to their name for any award that they win or if they are elected into the hall of fame.

I'm with Schilling on this one, release the names of the other 104 or whatever the number was people on the list if you're going to publicly out A-Rod when the testing was supposed to be anonymous and confidential. From what I read on ESPN they aren't even 100% sure who's urine belongs to which player though so who knows which of those names are legitimately accurate.

[macdaddy]

But aren't most of these substances illegal? I'm pretty sure that while some of them weren't specifically banned substances that players are not allowed to take any illegal drug.

They knew what they were doing and lets face it they did it for money. If they feel like it was ok to do it at the time then why are they desperately trying to hide it.

[AHF]

It wasn't until 2003 I believe that they started punishing people for using steroids, so before that what incentives were there for players to not use steroids if they couldn't get in trouble for it? I realize that they shouldn't have done something that was banned but it's hard to not myself in their shoes and see how they could say why shouldn't we do it since we can't get in trouble for it.

It was illegal period and it was banned by MLB. If you as a player feel like doing it anyway go ahead and take that plunge and make yourself a lot of money. Nevertheless, if I am in charge of baseball your legacy is your punishment.

No doubt that anyone who took steroids should have an asterisk next to their name for any award that they win or if they are elected into the hall of fame.

Agreed. If they want to open a PED wing of MLB, I would put Bonds, A-Rod, and others in there in a heartbeat because they are historic players and historic cheaters. I would keep them out of the HOF until there is a separate wing for them, though.

I'm with Schilling on this one, release the names of the other 104 or whatever the number was people on the list if you're going to publicly out A-Rod when the testing was supposed to be anonymous and confidential. From what I read on ESPN they aren't even 100% sure who's urine belongs to which player though so who knows which of those names are legitimately accurate.

Can you give me the link you are talking about regarding the confusion on the urine samples?

Notably, A-Rod hasn't denied using, though.

On publically outing people, I don't think that is realistic because the Union's leadership would get ousted for this screw-up if the entire list is released, IMO. All the players who were promised confidentiality would be incredibly pissed.