We should trade Smoove during the Offseason.

[exodus]

"Amare is a tough cover for anyone" You just contradicted yourself.

You must not know what the word contradicted means.

Matchups are debatable depending on who we are playing. There are stretches in some games where you either don't have a power forward or Joe is playing that position. That is a mute point.

What I am trying to say is IF we want to shake things up in the off season then we can get more for Josh.

Of course we can because he is a far better player. But given our lack of talent overall we can't afford to lose him. We all saw what this team looked like when he was out.

hunted in another thread but couldn't find the exact stat but it was something like Josh was averaging 12 points a game in our wins and close to 20+ in our losses. He wants to be Lebron but he isn't.

Smith tries to step up his scoring when other guys are struggling but if JJ and/or Bibby are off Smith can't make up for that. Horford just flat doesn't score.

[exodus]

Deron Williams falls into the same category, he NEVER has a good +/-. This year he's at -0.8.

Yeah, Horford had a bad +/- last year as well. Regardless he's a better option than Zaza.

And, Zaza may be a better matchup for the BIG centers like Dwight but I'd never go as far to say he's a better defender than Horford regardless of the +/-. Zaza is honestly one of the worst defenders I've ever seen. No +/- stat could ever convince me he's the better defender because it's just not true.

You know i have never like Zaza but the fact that the Hawks are giving up 7 ppg fewer when he is playing should tell you that Horford's defense is pretty overrated.

Horford really isn't that good at anything.

[BeeSwatter]

You must not know what the word contradicted means.

Of course we can because he is a far better player. But given our lack of talent overall we can't afford to lose him. We all saw what this team looked like when he was out.

Smith tries to step up his scoring when other guys are struggling. Horford never steps up his scoring.

Or maybe other guys are struggling because Josh has the ball?? Not the case every night but it does happen. Smith drives me crazy because for every bone headed turn over, drive to the basket that he lazily doesn't finish, there is always that play where he grabs a loose ball and makes an athletic play that no one else can make. Maybe he is our Andruw Jones. He just doesn't look like he is playing hard all the time. I think that is why he gets a lot of the criticism that he does.

[exodus]

Or maybe other guys are struggling because Josh has the ball?? Not the case every night but it does happen. Smith drives me crazy because for every bone headed turn over, drive to the basket that he lazily doesn't finish, there is always that play where he grabs a loose ball and makes an athletic play that no one else can make. Maybe he is our Andruw Jones. He just doesn't look like he is playing hard all the time. I think that is why he gets a lot of the criticism that he does.

Smith had probably his best month ever offensively in January. JJ shot 37% for january. JJ's bricks have nothing to do with Smith. He was just way off.

[AtLaS]

You know i have never like Zaza but the fact that the Hawks are giving up 7 ppg fewer when he is playing

That fact alone should state that the stat is wildly skewed because Zaza is a downright terrible defender.

The Spurs are giving up 3.7 ppg MORE with Duncan on the floor, and everyone knows he's one of the top defenders in the NBA.

We know Iverson sucks at defense yet the Pistons D is 4 ppg better with him on the floor.

I'm sure I could find lots more if I tried, the fact is that +/- is a good measure to look at when also compared with many other things, but just looking at it alone can often draw inaccurate conclusions.

[Diesel]

Not trying to argue but who says Horford played the 4 during that period. My opinion would be Horford was still the center and ZaZa was playing the 4. Horford would be a better 4 if he had a quality center next to him. In my opinion Horford does a decent job at center but there are always going to be match up problems. How does Smith do when he matches up directly with Bosh, Amare, or Diaw? Fact is Smith is signed to a decent long term contract and he could get us something in return. It would have to be a big name or I don't even consider it (Bosh, Boozer, Amare). True Smith may blow up into a superstar in a few years but then again we may still be waiting on something that isn't going to happen. Personally I don't see the drive from him that it takes to be great. Then again that is my opinion.

Diesel's Conflict...

I don't have any trust that Marvin will get any better.

I like what Smoove does on defense.

I hate that Smoove is trying so hard to prove he's a three.

I would rather see everybody under a different coach.

I think Horf is a lot better than we play him.

[AtLaS]

Smith had probably his best month ever offensively in January. JJ shot 37% for january. JJ's bricks have nothing to do with Smith. He was just way off.

I sometimes wonder if others watch the games or just bash without merit. I think it's mostly the second one.

When you have a player who DOMINATES the offense and takes 15-20 shots a game and is shooting under 40%, you aren't going to consistently win.

[Diesel]

Smith on a bad ankle is still far more productive than Horford. If anything we should look to trade Horford since he doesn't have nearly the talent or the productivity of Smith.

The problem is Agendaman... That NOBODY suggested cutting Smith or trading him for ending contracts.

[AHF]

You know i have never like Zaza but the fact that the Hawks are giving up 7 ppg fewer when he is playing should tell you that Horford's defense is pretty overrated.

I strongly suspect this is because Zaza plays largely against the backups for other teams and our backups do a better job stopping scoring from the opponent's backups than our starters do with their starters. This would explain why the numbers are better for Horford than for Zaza when both are playing with our other 4 starters.

[exodus]

The problem is Agendaman... That NOBODY suggested cutting Smith or trading him for ending contracts.

I didn't propose cutting horford or trading him for expirings either.

The fact is that you didn't propose trading Smith for anyone. Who is it we should trade him for?

[exodus]

I strongly suspect this is because Zaza plays largely against the backups for other teams and our backups do a better job stopping scoring from the opponent's backups than our starters do with their starters. This would explain why the numbers are better for Horford than for Zaza when both are playing with our other 4 starters.

Smith is a starter and the Hawks give up 6 ppg fewer when he is playing.

[Admin]

The Hawks defense is 3 ppg worse when Horford is playing.

http://www.82games.com/0809/08ATL11.HTM

The Hawks defense is 7 ppg better when Zaza is playing.

http://www.82games.com/0809/08ATL14.HTM

Even the Orlando announcers commented that Zaza does a better job on Howard than Horford does.

I didn't look at the links but if it's only about playing and not starting then all that proves is that Zaza is quite a bit more productive than the opposing backup center and Horford is slightly less productive than the opposing starting center.

Unless they have a similar number of minutes starting at the same position and those are the only minutes being used for comparison it's useless to use those stats to prove who is better defensively.

[AtLaS]

Smith is a starter and the Hawks give up 6 ppg fewer when he is playing.

Duncan starts and the Spurs give up 3.7 more defensively, and he may be the best interior defender in the NBA. The stats can be skewed for many reasons I don't feel like stating right now.

Defensive +/- is only one measure of the equation when evaluating defense. It's not the only measure. Zaza is just a bad defender and definitely worse than Horford. After watching Zaza for 4 years and Horford 2 I can say that this should be accepted quite easily.

[AtLaS]

I didn't look at the links but if it's only about playing and not starting then all that proves is that Zaza is quite a bit more productive than the opposing backup center and Horford is slightly less productive than the opposing starting center.

You are thinking of opposing PER. This is defensive +/- which doesn't take position into account, it's only the amount of points given up per 100 possessions with them on the floor versus when they are off.

[exodus]

Duncan starts and the Spurs give up 3.7 more defensively, and he may be the best interior defender in the NBA. The stats can be skewed for many reasons I don't feel like stating right now.

Defensive +/- is only one measure of the equation when evaluating defense. It's not the only measure. Zaza is just a bad defender and definitely worse than Horford. After watching Zaza for 4 years and Horford 2 I can say that this should be accepted quite easily.

+/- isn't my favorite stat and i hate Zaza defensively but i do believe he does a better job in the post against big centers than Horford. Horford is barely a speed bump to Howard.

Horford's advantage over Zaza is on the perimeter and defending pick and rolls. Zaza is horrible at this.

People act like Horford is a defensive stopper which is far from the truth. we saw what the hawks defense looked like when Smith was out.

[Admin]

You are thinking of opposing PER. This is defensive +/- which doesn't take position into account, it's only the amount of points given up per 100 possessions with them on the floor versus when they are off.

No I understand that but what I'm saying is that because Horford plays the 4 and 5 it's not valid to compare his defensive impact to that of Zaza who only plays the 5. I'm not talking about +/-, PER, EFF, or anything like that. I'm simply saying that if you want to compare their defensive impact on the game then you need to remove as many variables as possible and use their minutes starting at the same position, in this case it would have to be center, and then if the total minutes are comparable you can see their impact.

This argument is saying that it's fair to compare Horford's defensive impact against Dwight Howard to Zaza's defensive impact against Marcin Gortat. Somehow that just doesn't seem fair. That doesn't even take into account the other starters on the floor with Horford and the other bench players on the floor with Zaza.

It's just a terrible way of comparing the two is all I'm trying to get at LOL.

[AtLaS]

People act like Horford is a defensive stopper which is far from the truth. we saw what the hawks defense looked like when Smith was out.

I've never called Horford a good defender. In fact I've bashed his defense quite a few times. I'd call him average and Zaza awful. Many here just can't stand Smith for the dumb mistakes he makes while ignoring everything else he does so they like to think Horford is better. Or that because Smith goes for blocks that he's a gambler and worse defender than Horford. Don't know about them but I'd much rather my defender attempt to challenge the shot rather then just letting them lay it up.

Horford is actually a pretty good help defender when he's in position. The key word is 'when'. He is often out of position to help out on drives into the lane and can't get there in time. Zaza will be in position but just doesn't even try to challenge, or he'll just foul them.

On RealGM their was a Horford thread I think in player comparisons and all the non-Hawk fans were calling him a legit defensive anchor. Long story short, I disputed that claim.

[AtLaS]

No I understand that but what I'm saying is that because Horford plays the 4 and 5 it's not valid to compare his defensive impact to that of Zaza who only plays the 5. I'm not talking about +/-, PER, EFF, or anything like that. I'm simply saying that if you want to compare their defensive impact on the game then you need to remove as many variables as possible and use their minutes starting at the same position, in this case it would have to be center, and then if the total minutes are comparable you can see their impact.

This argument is saying that it's fair to compare Horford's defensive impact against Dwight Howard to Zaza's defensive impact against Marcin Gortat. Somehow that just doesn't seem fair. That doesn't even take into account the other starters on the floor with Horford and the other bench players on the floor with Zaza.

It's just a terrible way of comparing the two is all I'm trying to get at LOL.

I know what you mean. This is why I was saying defensive +/- is only one measure of the equation when evaluating defense, not the only measure. The results can and many times will be highly skewed.

[Diesel]

I didn't propose cutting horford or trading him for expirings either.

The fact is that you didn't propose trading Smith for anyone. Who is it we should trade him for?

A young player who will add to this team. Maybe a Bosh or an Amare?

[HawksFan87]

WE should trade Joe , Marvin and Bibby 2.. Heck let's start all over AGAIN!!!.....