We should trade Smoove during the Offseason.

[Popeye]

Josh Smith defense is what bothers me, his offense is where I expected. I still believe he would shine in the 6th man role. Like players with his characteristics i.e. Manu and AK-47

Horford is better this year, in fact a lot better. The other NBA Centers have realized that he just can't guard bigger players. He should be playing at the PF spot. Karl Malone had this same problem, not everyone can be Tim Duncan. He has no problems with Centers defending him it just that he can't defend them.

This team needs a Center, badly I might add. A defensive minded Center or high energy starter type like Kaman.

I agree with ATF with the fact that no one on this team will be a star but we have three potential All star types, one an All Star and the other is a quality PG. Here is some ideas that we could use.

1. Trade for a Center who has starting talent.

2. Hire a offensive minded coach to assist and teach offense. Woody great on D but poor on offense, he needs someone to balance him out.

3. Make Joe #1, Marvin #2, and Horford #3 options on offense. This would further the development of Marv and AH. Bibby and Smith will take advised shots.

4. We don't have the talent for now but move Smith to the bench in a 6th man role. He need more impact from the bench. The production is solid but the impact is weak.

5. Do not fire Woody. I agree the guy can't coach on offense but his defensive sets and willingness to say what the truth and not sugarcoating is what these group of guys need. He is great for our players. His rotations suck but mainly he needs his type of players. Acie isn't his type of guy.

I agree with these, We need someone like Smoove to come of the bench just like Odom did in LA or Ginobili in SA. I say we start Zaza and Horford at center and PF and if one of them picks up 2 quick fouls SMoove would come in and give us energy.

Smoove will never accept this role though because he is selfish.

Edited February 19, 2009 by Murat1

[Joker]

I agree with these, We need someone like Smoove to come of the bench just like Odom did in LA or Ginobili in SA. I say we start Zaza and Horford at center and PF and if one of them picks up 2 quick fouls SMoove would come in and give us energy.

Smoove will never accept this role though because he is selfish.

We do not have the talent to make him accept that role. Zaza should never start over Smith. We need a real Center who is a starter in this league. When you bench a player you paid top dollar for, you have to prove why the bench is best for him. Manu understood, it took AK-47 a year but he understood.

The problem Smith is having is this is a playoff team now. Players actually scout you and look for your flaws and how to expose them. J.J. is having the same problem as well but he will grow out of it before the playoffs. Plus J.J. plays too many minutes. Another problem that I have with Woody rotation.

Edited February 20, 2009 by nbasuperstar40

[Diesel]

Who would you recommend we trade him for this offseason then, Dies'? Perhaps a combination for a veteran big or maybe a couple draft picks or maybe even both?

Right now, that and trading Smith is unimportant.

The point is keep our ear to the ground and listen for opportunities to get allstar calibre players..

AND

Keep our eyes open and Watch Smith and Marv to see who really helps us the most.

[mattlanta]

I have been lurking for the past couple of months and here is what I think:

J.J. is the same player he's always been just more targeted by peers.

Marvin did exactly what I said he would do and make the leap to being the second best player on the team.

Bibby was much better for us this season, we need him but not as bad as he needs us.

Josh Smith defense is what bothers me, his offense is where I expected. I still believe he would shine in the 6th man role. Like players with his characteristics i.e. Manu and AK-47

Horford is better this year, in fact a lot better. The other NBA Centers have realized that he just can't guard bigger players. He should be playing at the PF spot. Karl Malone had this same problem, not everyone can be Tim Duncan. He has no problems with Centers defending him it just that he can't defend them.

This team needs a Center, badly I might add. A defensive minded Center or high energy starter type like Kaman.

I agree with ATF with the fact that no one on this team will be a star but we have three potential All star types, one an All Star and the other is a quality PG. Here is some ideas that we could use.

1. Trade for a Center who has starting talent.

2. Hire a offensive minded coach to assist and teach offense. Woody great on D but poor on offense, he needs someone to balance him out.

3. Make Joe #1, Marvin #2, and Horford #3 options on offense. This would further the development of Marv and AH. Bibby and Smith will take advised shots.

4. We don't have the talent for now but move Smith to the bench in a 6th man role. He need more impact from the bench. The production is solid but the impact is weak.

5. Do not fire Woody. I agree the guy can't coach on offense but his defensive sets and willingness to say what the truth and not sugarcoating is what these group of guys need. He is great for our players. His rotations suck but mainly he needs his type of players. Acie isn't his type of guy.

Good points.

But we would get more value out of Smith if we traded him instead of sitting him on the bench. That won't do any good to our team chemistry seeing that Josh probably won't have it and would demand a trade ASAP.

[Atlantaholic]

There's no way Horford's productivity would increase if he played the 4. That is one of the biggest fallacies that is prominent on the board... The only aspect of his game that would improve is his man on man defense.

Offensively his only advantage over defenders is his quickness... By playing Center he should be able to take advantage of many match-ups... but he rarely does. By playing the 4 instead of C his one offensive advantage is negated.

Horf is a decent front-court player. Nothing more. He has potential to be very good, but he's not there yet. Not even close

[Kimsey]

Horford is so deliberate on the post it is beyond slow. He actually looks down while he is posting down his man keeping an eye on the dribble. He gets stood up most the time. When was the last time you seen him actually back his man down quickly and shoot right over him?

He rarely demands a double team because quite frankly it's not needed. I do like his mid range game and think he should pattern his game after Horace Grant.

JS does have faults but when he actually gets the ball on the post he gets doubled quite a bit and usually makes a crisp pass to a wide open teammate. When they let him play one on one he does a good job causing a foul or making a bucket. The long jumpers are usually when the shot clock is at around 5 seconds... The coach needs to give him a defined role but isn't creative enough to do so.

[Buzzard]

We have all known for 1.5 years that one of Horford, Smith, or Marvin would have to go.

But, and if I've said this once I've said it a million times, there's no rush to trade one of them yet. As long as Horford is on his rookie contract, you can afford to keep all three.

IOW, let's have this discussion of trading one in two years. For now, let them grow.

I don't think we absolutely have to trade them. I like the idea of having an almost all-star caliber 6th man as posted by nbasuperstar40.

But I also think that unless we get a near all-star type big or pg, trading any of the three could end up being the worse mistake our team has made move wise since trading away Nique for a one year Danny Manning lease!

Unless we get an offer that just blows us away....do exactly what you are saying:

Let them grow and see which ones end up being the best two starters; but also be open minded about who may also be our Manu or AK47.

You know CP3 is seriously ticked off at the cheapness of the Hornets ownership now...since they tried to trade away Chandler's contract without any thought of bettering the team. Owner's only concern was getting under the luxury tax next year. Paul really was pissed from what I saw of his interviews. Just something I thought I would throw out there!

Edited February 20, 2009 by Buzzard

[GameTime]

Someone help show me how Woody is "great" on D? We are 16th in the league.

Woody needs to get fired. No need to waste time with the "offensive coordinator" shenanigans.

[Buzzard]

Someone help show me how Woody is "great" on D? We are 16th in the league.

Woody needs to get fired. No need to waste time with the "offensive coordinator" shenanigans.

I get your frustration with Woody. But 16th in the league with a very very weak defensive PG and no real center is not as bad as it looks. It could be a lot worse.

I would not mind it if we hired a proven winner as a new coach...but nothing less than that will do. Keep Woody if we cannot hire a proven winner.

[tonegully]

I would get rid of the coach first. IMO.

[crimedog]

I hunted in another thread but couldn't find the exact stat but it was something like Josh was averaging 12 points a game in our wins and close to 20+ in our losses. He wants to be Lebron but he isn't.

Just my two cents

Wow... You do realize that this sort of stuff it tracked on espn.com and all you have to do is click on Josh Smith's name to realize that he scores 15.5 in wins and 15.6 in losses (and don't forget, his ankle injury came in a win where he had scored 6 points in 11 minutes which means that if he had played another 20, those numbers would probably be exactly even).

Maybe you are on to something though, you can make much more convincing arguments if you just make stuff up.

On +/-, its fair to say that this shouldn't be used as the definitive, but it should definitely be examined. With Duncan and the Spurs, there is a pretty clear reason why Duncan's +/- is poor on D, he plays a lot of small ball with defensively inept wings and backcourt players whereas the backup squad pretty much all have weak offensive numbers and big defensive numbers.

With Horford, as far as I can tell he gets hurt from a) playing with mediocre perimeter defenders in the starting unit (Bibby is awful, Joe often coasts, and Marv is very up and down) and b) gets hurt from being one of the two backups to Josh Smith who has a huge impact on our team defensively.

If anyone can dispute that, I'd like to hear a better explaination, otherwise I do think it damages the movement that the team might somehow be better off keeping Horford and moving Smith. I'm with mrh though, why move either unless someone comes to us with the right deal?

I actually think Horford would be a great guy to come off the bench behind Josh and some big lug. Thing about it, he's versatile, not particulalry strong at offense or defense but certainly not weak, he does his best when he's playing with energy and grabbing rebounds and he'd be able to more effectively do that off the bench... maybe its just me seeing things wierd.

[AtLaS]

On +/-, its fair to say that this shouldn't be used as the definitive, but it should definitely be examined. With Duncan and the Spurs, there is a pretty clear reason why Duncan's +/- is poor on D, he plays a lot of small ball with defensively inept wings and backcourt players whereas the backup squad pretty much all have weak offensive numbers and big defensive numbers.

This has been my point the entire time. You can't just look at Zaza's defensive +/- and assume he's the better defender without looking at the situation. Same with Duncan. This is why +/- can be a highly skewed stat if you don't know what you're looking at, because every teams situation is completely different.

[crimedog]

This has been my point the entire time. You can't just look at Zaza's defensive +/- and assume he's the better defender without looking at the situation. Same with Duncan. This is why +/- can be a highly skewed stat if you don't know what you're looking at, because every teams situation is completely different.

Right, but why is Al's +/- like that?

[AtLaS]

I get your frustration with Woody. But 16th in the league with a very very weak defensive PG and no real center is not as bad as it looks. It could be a lot worse

There are plenty of top 15 defensive teams with weak defensive PGs.

It doesn't matter if Horford isn't a "real" center because we aren't getting killed at the center position. In fact, last time I checked we were 12th in the league in terms of opposing center production.

[AtLaS]

Right, but why is Al's +/- like that?

I don't watch the Pistons on a daily basis so I can't answer that question. But again, the fact that AI's defensive +/- is -4 tells that it can be a highly skewed statistic.

It could be any number of things, he may play with Sheed (a strong interior defender) and Tayshaun more than the backup PG does, which would significantly improve his defensive ratings. I don't know that this is the reason but it's one of the MANY reasons why the stat is skewed.

EDIT: Haha I just realized you were talking about Al (Horford) and not AI who I'd mentioned earlier in the thread. Damn L's and I's looking similar :).

Edited February 20, 2009 by AtLaS

[AtLaS]

Right, but why is Al's +/- like that?

It could be a million things. Don't really feel like typing them out or thinking about it right now but are you trying to argue that Zaza is the better defender?

[crimedog]

It could be a million things. Don't really feel like typing them out or thinking about it right now but are you trying to argue that Zaza is the better defender?

I certainly didn't say that did I?

The point is that on the whole, the team does better on defense when Al isn't in the game compared to when he is. It is a legitimate question as to why.

Edited February 20, 2009 by crimedog

[AtLaS]

I certainly didn't say that did I?

OK that's why I asked.

The point is that on the whole, the team does better on defense when Al isn't in the game compared to when he is. It is a legitimate question as to why. My theory was that we have a pretty weak defensive squad on the perimeter with the starting unit so Zaza benefits there and Horford often plays PF when Zaza subs in for Smith and Al isn't as good as Smith at defending PFs and when Smith goes out for another player, Al plays C while Marv plays PF which also brings down the team's defense.

This could be the reason. Basically, the point I'm getting at is that defense is something that is really hard to evaluate with stats, watching the players is the best way to judge and Zaza just isn't on the same planet as Horford in terms of defense. Again, that's not even saying Al is a good defender because I don't think he is. I consider Al average and Zaza beyond terrible.

[crimedog]

OK that's why I asked.

This could be the reason. Basically, the point I'm getting at is that defense is something that is really hard to evaluate with stats, watching the players is the best way to judge and Zaza just isn't on the same planet as Horford in terms of defense. Again, that's not even saying Al is a good defender because I don't think he is. I consider Al average and Zaza beyond terrible.

Yeah, I've noticed that Zaza has certain strengths and weaknesses defensively. He's actually not that bad a post defender at all. He's pretty bottom heavy, which might account for the 2 inch vertical, but he's willing to stand his ground.

On the other hand, Zaza might be the worst pick and roll defender ever. He has never once been marginally effective at it.

[AtLaS]

Yeah, I've noticed that Zaza has certain strengths and weaknesses defensively. He's actually not that bad a post defender at all. He's pretty bottom heavy, which might account for the 2 inch vertical, but he's willing to stand his ground.

I agree, Zaza has an inch and almost 30 pounds on Horford so that's probably why he's better against the big centers.

On the other hand, Zaza might be the worst pick and roll defender ever. He has never once been marginally effective at it.

While you are correct, it's really just his help defense in general. He is honestly one of the worst help defenders I've ever seen. Most of the time guys drive the lane and he just watches them go up for the layup. In the other times, he just fouls them and many times gives up and And1. I could probably count on two hands the number of times he's actually made a help defensive play at the basket.