Can Josh and the 3pt shot be a good thing?

[TheTrueSiete]

You must not play golf to use an analogy that bad. Wow

In order to say you are getting steadily better there has to be a pattern in place and there definitely isn't with Smith. Up until March 1 Smith was shooting 24% from 3. That doesn't look like improvement to me. His recent hot streak looks like a fluke more than anything.

When you suck so bad that you shoot 25% it is hard not to improve, just like it is hard not to improve from 13 wins.

So we can start splitting the seasons up into certain parts in order to try to prove our point... Wow, Ex is this normal for you... Let me try... Smoove is shooting over 50% from three in the last 5 games so that looks like improvement to me... That's a "pattern" right... And yes I do play golf... I just figured you didn't... Your post count tells me all I need to know about how you spend your free time... :thumbsupsmileyanim:

7

[mrhonline]

You know, the occasional three point attempts never bothered me as much as the occasional 18 foot jumpers. If Josh is going to shoot the ball outside 5 feet, it should be a three.

Anything in between should be shot by Horford. Al is more than capable of being a solid pick/pop guy, if he focused on it.

[AtLaS]

You know, the occasional three point attempts never bothered me as much as the occasional 18 foot jumpers. If Josh is going to shoot the ball outside 5 feet, it should be a three.

Anything in between should be shot by Horford. Al is more than capable of being a solid pick/pop guy, if he focused on it.

Yeah, he's the perfect guy for Bibby to run the PnR with. He can pop or roll since he's a good finisher and has a pretty good jumper. We have been running it a little more often, though.

[TheTrueSiete]

You know, the occasional three point attempts never bothered me as much as the occasional 18 foot jumpers. If Josh is going to shoot the ball outside 5 feet, it should be a three.

Anything in between should be shot by Horford. Al is more than capable of being a solid pick/pop guy, if he focused on it.

Maybe that's why Mark Price started on the outside with him... Hopefully, over the offseason, they continue to work on the outside and move in little by little... And I completely agree with the Horf comment...

7

[exodus]

So we can start splitting the seasons up into certain parts in order to try to prove our point... Wow, Ex is this normal for you... Let me try... Smoove is shooting over 50% from three in the last 5 games so that looks like improvement to me... That's a "pattern" right... And yes I do play golf... I just figured you didn't... Your post count tells me all I need to know about how you spend your free time... :thumbsupsmileyanim:

7

So in your mind if the stats improve it can't be a fluke, not matter how short the time period? Marvin had a streak of 11-13 in 5 games in November. I guess that wasn't a fluke either.

I used to have a +2 handicap and played competitively FYI. I have only played twice this year though.

[exodus]

Don't you guys know that iso's for JJ and Flip >>>>>>>>> pick and rolls?

Woody's greatness is so unappreaciated.

[TheTrueSiete]

So in your mind if the stats improve it can't be a fluke, not matter how short the time period? Marvin had a streak of 11-13 in 5 games in November. I guess that wasn't a fluke either.

I used to have a +2 handicap and played competitively FYI. I have only played twice this year though.

Didn't Marvin work on that part of his game? So, no that's not a fluke... That's progress from hard work... You know the same hard work Smoove is putting in with Price.... It's called consequence...

I used to be a scratch golfer and played competitively as well... Where did you play at?

7

Edited April 10, 2009 by TheTrueSiete

[exodus]

Didn't Marvin work on that part of his game? So, no that's not a fluke... That's progress from hard work... You know the same hard work Smoove is putting in with Price....

I used to be a scratch golfer and played competitively as well... Where did you play at?

7

Marvin has definitely improved, but going 11-13 was a fluke. He hasn't scared that since.

I played on the golf team at U of Md. Fred Funk, now on the Senior Tour, was my coach. His longtime caddie on the PGA Tour, Mark Long, was on the team with me. He went to college on an academic scholarship, graduated with an A average, then went on tour to caddy.

Mark does a spot on impersonation of Seve Ballesteros and actually conducted a TV interview as Seve right before the Ryder Cup one year. He had me rolling.

Edited April 10, 2009 by exodus

[TheTrueSiete]

Marvin has definitely improved, but going 11-13 was a fluke. He hasn't scared that since.

I played on the golf team at U of Md. Fred Funk, now on the Senior Tour, was my coach. His longtime caddie on the PGA Tour, Mark Long, was on the team with me. He went to college on an academic scholarship, graduated with an A average, then went on tour to caddy.

Mark does a spot on impersonation of Seve Ballesteros and actually conducted an interview on live TV as Seve right before the Ryder Cup one year. He had me rolling.

Totally off subject, but what's the latest on Ballesteros' condition? I used to caddie at Cuscowilla a while back... Learned alot from that... Caddied for Crenshaw before, being that he created that course... Most fun I had was with some big wigs from Delta... The guys put down a pack of those small airplane shots and looked at us and said "It's gonna be a long day guys, so you better drink up"... :thumbsupsmileyanim:

7

[exodus]

Totally off subject, but what's the latest on Ballesteros' condition? I used to caddie at Cuscowilla a while back... Learned alot from that... Caddied for Crenshaw before, being that he created that course... Most fun I had was with some big wigs from Delta... The guys put down a pack of those small airplane shots and looked at us and said "It's gonna be a long day guys, so you better drink up"... :thumbsupsmileyanim:

7

I am not sure what the deal is with Seve. I don't follow golf like i used to although i will definitely be watching he Masters. LOL @ Mize on the leaderboard.

Those guys sound like they were probably good tippers.

[TheTrueSiete]

I am not sure what the deal is with Seve. I don't follow golf like i used to although i will definitely be watching he Masters. LOL @ Mize on the leaderboard.

Those guys sound like they were probably good tippers.

I heard he had a tumor or something being removed... Hope all is well... I agree about Mize... He's got a consistent swing though...

And yes... Yes they were...

7

[thecampster]

I watch the games. When Smith is behind the line you might be able to find a defender within 10 feet of him if you're lucky.

I am still waiting for the list of power forwards who shoot as many 3s as smith and shoot them worse.

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/charles_barkley/index.html

Arguably one of the best power forwards of all time.

Regular season 538 of 2,020 from 3 for a 26.6% average.

Playoffs 54 of 251 from 3 for a 25.5% average.

All stat games 3 of 12 from 3 for a 25% average.

Go ahead exodus. Argue something about this. 4 times in his career Sir Charles shot over 200 3 point attempts. Josh will probably not hoist 100 this year.

In his best 2 seasons Barkley was 33.8% and 30.5% from 3 skewing his numbers up for the rest of his career. He never shot above 30% in any of his other 14 NBA seasons.

Even more staggering is Barkley's career FG% of 54.1%. Why the hell would a guy shooting 54% from the field shoot 3's when he's shooting 26.6% from behind the arc?

Even more interesting, even though he averaged over 120 3 point attempts a year (or 1.5 a game), he averaged 11.7 rebounds a game. In phoenix in 92-93 he averaged 3 attempts a game and still grabbed 12.2 rpg. Kind of blows that theory out of the water huh?

It's ok though. You still didn't respond to the previous post that explained that even Karl Malone would brick 3's at a 27% rate and still took over 40 one year.

[exodus]

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/charles_barkley/index.html

Arguably one of the best power forwards of all time.

Regular season 538 of 2,020 from 3 for a 26.6% average.

Playoffs 54 of 251 from 3 for a 25.5% average.

All stat games 3 of 12 from 3 for a 25% average.

Go ahead exodus. Argue something about this. 4 times in his career Sir Charles shot over 200 3 point attempts. Josh will probably not hoist 100 this year.

In his best 2 seasons Barkley was 33.8% and 30.5% from 3 skewing his numbers up for the rest of his career. He never shot above 30% in any of his other 14 NBA seasons.

Even more staggering is Barkley's career FG% of 54.1%. Why the hell would a guy shooting 54% from the field shoot 3's when he's shooting 26.6% from behind the arc?

Even more interesting, even though he averaged over 120 3 point attempts a year (or 1.5 a game), he averaged 11.7 rebounds a game. In phoenix in 92-93 he averaged 3 attempts a game and still grabbed 12.2 rpg. Kind of blows that theory out of the water huh?

It's ok though. You still didn't respond to the previous post that explained that even Karl Malone would brick 3's at a 27% rate and still took over 40 one year.

Do i really have to explain the difference between present and past tense?

I am still waiting for the list of power forwards who shoot as many 3s as smith and shoot them worse.

Is this in the present or past tense?

If you comb the annals of NBA history sure there is a chance you could find a couple. How long ago did Barkley retire? LOL

[thecampster]

Do i really have to explain the difference between present and past tense?

Is this in the present or past tense?

If you comb the annals of NBA history sure there is a chance you could find a couple. How long ago did Barkley retire? LOL

Gerald Wallace , CHA 67 17.1 .6 1.9 37 127 .291

Devean George , DAL 43 3.4 .5 1.8 22 76 .289

Stephen Graham , IND 50 5.3 .3 1.3 17 63 .270

Donte Greene , SAC 51 3.9 .5 1.8 25 94 .266

Andrei Kirilenko , UTA 63 11.5 .3 1.1 17 67 .254

Corey Maggette , GSW 51 18.6 .5 1.9 24 95 .253

Al Thornton , LAC 71 16.8 .3 1.1 20 79 .253

Chris Bosh , TOR 73 22.7 .1 .6 10 41 .244

Shawn Marion , TOR-MIA 65 12.5 .1 .8 9 51 .176

I tried to keep the attempts for the season above 40 to keep it significant. Attempts are listed in bold. All the players listed here are qualified per NBA.com as a Forward, some flavor of forward and all are shooting a lower percentage than Josh Smith. Attempts per game is the 4th number. There are plenty more and some even more prominent that have attempted 25 or so.

I'm sure now you'll say something smart like show me ones that are on teams leading their conference and have a 'v' in the nickname.

Are you saying you don't want any of these players on your team?

[00Blink]

Gerald Wallace , CHA 67 17.1 .6 1.9 37 127 .291

Devean George , DAL 43 3.4 .5 1.8 22 76 .289

Stephen Graham , IND 50 5.3 .3 1.3 17 63 .270

Donte Greene , SAC 51 3.9 .5 1.8 25 94 .266

Andrei Kirilenko , UTA 63 11.5 .3 1.1 17 67 .254

Corey Maggette , GSW 51 18.6 .5 1.9 24 95 .253

Al Thornton , LAC 71 16.8 .3 1.1 20 79 .253

Chris Bosh , TOR 73 22.7 .1 .6 10 41 .244

Shawn Marion , TOR-MIA 65 12.5 .1 .8 9 51 .176

I tried to keep the attempts for the season above 40 to keep it significant. Attempts are listed in bold. All the players listed here are qualified per NBA.com as a Forward, some flavor of forward and all are shooting a lower percentage than Josh Smith. Attempts per game is the 4th number. There are plenty more and some even more prominent that have attempted 25 or so.

I'm sure now you'll say something smart like show me ones that are on teams leading their conference and have a 'v' in the nickname.

Are you saying you don't want any of these players on your team?

I'm shocked myself....hopefully now he can submit

[exodus]

Gerald Wallace , CHA 67 17.1 .6 1.9 37 127 .291

Devean George , DAL 43 3.4 .5 1.8 22 76 .289

Stephen Graham , IND 50 5.3 .3 1.3 17 63 .270

Donte Greene , SAC 51 3.9 .5 1.8 25 94 .266

Andrei Kirilenko , UTA 63 11.5 .3 1.1 17 67 .254

Corey Maggette , GSW 51 18.6 .5 1.9 24 95 .253

Al Thornton , LAC 71 16.8 .3 1.1 20 79 .253

Chris Bosh , TOR 73 22.7 .1 .6 10 41 .244

Shawn Marion , TOR-MIA 65 12.5 .1 .8 9 51 .176

I tried to keep the attempts for the season above 40 to keep it significant. Attempts are listed in bold. All the players listed here are qualified per NBA.com as a Forward, some flavor of forward and all are shooting a lower percentage than Josh Smith. Attempts per game is the 4th number. There are plenty more and some even more prominent that have attempted 25 or so.

I'm sure now you'll say something smart like show me ones that are on teams leading their conference and have a 'v' in the nickname.

Are you saying you don't want any of these players on your team?

maybe you misunderstood the quesiton. I was asking for power forwards who shoot as many 3s as Smith and shoot them worse. I wasn't asking for small forwards or players who are shooting fewer 3s.

Edited April 10, 2009 by exodus

[thecampster]

maybe you misunderstood the quesiton. I was asking for power forwards who shoot as many 3s as Smith and shoot them worse. I wasn't asking for small forwards or players who are shooting fewer 3s.

LOL you are so full of it. Denial must be a lonely place.

I suppose you can keep qualifying the question. Maybe next you'll say "in their 5th year in the league" or "and never went to college" or maybe even "Power Forward but undersized for the position and is playing the role of a tweener".

You just lost all credibility on the subject bro. I don't care if it's a center, point guard or ball boy. They are NBA players, mostly all starters, all forwards (which is what Josh is. He is a tweener) all shooting a similar number of 3 pointers this year and all shooting for a lower percentage than Josh Smith. And arguing symantics and saying "present only players" is ridiculous.

Let's look at facts. His stats show him to be at least the 2nd best player on a team going to the playoffs with homecourt advantage while only 23 years old. Can you give a brother a little slack?

[BusBoyIsBack]

How is this thread even this long?

Josh Smith's problem is he doesn't have his game around the basket enough.

That's why he's not a 20 point per game scorer in this league. He's simply too inconsistent a shooter from the field to be taking that many jumpers per game especially the 3 pointer where he makes only 1 out of 4

[exodus]

LOL you are so full of it. Denial must be a lonely place.

I suppose you can keep qualifying the question. Maybe next you'll say "in their 5th year in the league" or "and never went to college" or maybe even "Power Forward but undersized for the position and is playing the role of a tweener".

Why don't you show me where i changed the question? i think you just didn't understand it the first time.

FYI even though i rag on Smith for shooting 3s and trying to lead the break i am still a fan of his and his jersey is in my closet.

Edited April 11, 2009 by exodus

[thecampster]

Why don't you show me where i changed the question? i think you just didn't understand it the first time.

FYI even though i rag on Smith for shooting 3s and trying to lead the break i am still a fan of his and his jersey is in my closet.

I've decided to break down your arguments in this thread one by one. I think it will help.

Guys like Amare, Boozer and Brand are far better jump shooters than Smith. Why don't they take 3s?

Amare has taken 73 3pointers in his career. He is a 19% shooter from the arc. He took 31 last year. Boozer is 1 of 9 from 3 in his career for 11%. Brand is 2 for 13 in his career for 15.4%. Sub 20% and all 3 are listed as F/C on Yahoo (meaning between Forward and Center). Reminding you Smith is listed as F (meaning between Small Forward and Forward). If you won't let other compare non-exact players, you can't do the same.

smith has yet to establish that he can play either style well. He is a poor rebounder and a poor 3 pt shooter.

Sorry bro but you don't sound like much of a JSMith fan to me here. 7.3 rebounds is good for 31st in the NBA among players with 60 games or more. 30% for a season is not a poor 3 point shooter. It is not good and not the number you are looking for but not poor either. 30% from 3 = 45% from 2.

It isn't just the 3s Smith takes that are the problem. It is all the time he spends behind the line that is the problem. When he is behind the 3 pt line the defense can ignore him. When he is behind the line he isn't hitting the offensive boards, cutting to the basket, etc.

This is just an exaggeration and in some ways totally untrue. The first thing you need to admit here is that these sets are by design and not primarily Josh's doing but a product of Woody's ISO sets and having too many interchangable pieces. They are part of an offensive philosophy that all starts with Joe in long term create ISO which requires clearing out space in the lane for Joe to drive and pick up a foul. Josh can't play inside and run these sets. Iso's typically have a center weakside and one of the wings set to fill the lane if the iso decides to pass off during his drive. This leaves either the power forward or Small forward at the arc. One or the other. 2nd The defense can't ignore anyone on the court. If Josh is left unguarded, then I assume you are talking about a double team. If the player being doubled drives to the lane and passes out of the doubleteam, and the player guarding Josh doesn't find him again or chase ball it's an illegal D. He can't ignore him. Furthermore if he does ignore him then shame on the other 4 players for not clearing out the backside for a cut. Don't even try to tell me this never happens. We've all seen the alleyoop dunks.

Why do you think smith gets the ball so frequently behind the line at the end of the clock? it is because he is left wide open while the defenders are covering everyone else.

Next game just watch where Smith's defender is when Smith is behind the line, if you can even tell who his defender is supposed to be.

Easy question! His defender is the guy that's got JJ bottled up because he held the ball too long in ISO and wasn't looking to give it up when he drew the double.

I'll make it even easier for you. Find just one.

This was in relation to finding one power forward who shoots more 3's and worse than Smith.

I offered Barkley. You said current as in present tense forward. I offered my list.

You qualified it as back to your original post of having to be a power forward and having to shoot more and worse.

All on the list shot worse. 3 shot more this year but all shot similar attempts or attempts per game. Of those, Gerald Wallace is listed by yahoo as 'F' just like Smith meaning he's played both positions this year just like Smith. But saying they have to be a PF like you claim Smith solely is cheapens your argument. When looking at this list, some of these players are combo 2/3's shooting closer to 2 times a game from 3 and shooting only 26-28%. That is the position that is more commonly a 3 threat. This makes Josh more impressive, not less. He is outshooting players who are by design supposed to do it. He is more effective and not less than players who are supposed to outperform him in this area.

Edited April 11, 2009 by thecampster