Can Josh and the 3pt shot be a good thing?

[exodus]

Guys like Amare, Boozer and Brand are far better jump shooters than Smith. Why don't they take 3s?

[tomac]

Guys like Amare, Boozer and Brand are far better jump shooters than Smith. Why don't they take 3s?

The guys you named are prototypical power forwards. They like to bang and create contact (although Amare will shoot the occasional three). Josh wasn't drafted as a prototypical PF. When he was draft, BK was looking for players who could play multiple positions. Al Harrington (also a PF who shoots the 3) was manning the 4 spot for us. Josh often played the 3 his rookie season.

Also, for every board-banging PF you can name in today's NBA, I can name a jump shooting, 3 point loving PF. The blessing in Josh's game is that (eventually) he'll be able to fluidly switch back and forth between the styles. I'm not saying that he'll be a shot-blocking, better rebounding Dirk Nowitzki, but he will be a constant match-up problem.

[exodus]

The guys you named are prototypical power forwards. They like to bang and create contact (although Amare will shoot the occasional three). Josh wasn't drafted as a prototypical PF. When he was draft, BK was looking for players who could play multiple positions. Al Harrington (also a PF who shoots the 3) was manning the 4 spot for us. Josh often played the 3 his rookie season.

All three guys are face up players. They aren't back to the basket 4s. Last year Boozer scored 7.8 ppg on jumpers.

http://www.82games.com/0708/07UTA12A.HTM

amare scored 7.4 ppg on jumpers

http://www.82games.com/0708/07PHO15A.HTM

They shoot better by far than Smith from outside but they stay in the 12-18 foot area because they have sense.

Also, for every board-banging PF you can name in today's NBA, I can name a jump shooting, 3 point loving PF. The blessing in Josh's game is that (eventually) he'll be able to fluidly switch back and forth between the styles.

smith has yet to establish that he can play either style well. He is a poor rebounder and a poor 3 pt shooter.

[AHF]

Can Josh and the 3pt shot be a good thing?

For many of the reasons listed here: no.

[tomac]

All three guys are face up players. They aren't back to the basket 4s. Last year Boozer scored 7.8 ppg on jumpers.

http://www.82games.com/0708/07UTA12A.HTM

amare scored 7.4 ppg on jumpers

http://www.82games.com/0708/07PHO15A.HTM

They shoot better by far than Smith from outside but they stay in the 12-18 foot area because they have sense.

smith has yet to establish that he can play either style well. He is a poor rebounder and a poor 3 pt shooter.

Nice stats, but for players who average over 20 pts/ game that would still leave 60% + of their average to be scored with their backs to the basket. They are bangers who developed mid-range games.

[tonegully]

I think Smoove is hurting his development. We dont need a PF shooting threes. Then when he misses you guys will be in the chat complaining how come Horf didnt get that rebound. Get serious here.

Smoove needs to pound the boards, hit the midrange jumper, hit 70% of his FTs and get put backs.

HE CANT SHOOT 70% FROM THE FREE THROW LINE WITH NO ONE ON HIM, YET ITS A GOOD IDEA TO SHOOT THREES??

I dont understand that logic.

Woody is stupid for drawing up a play for Smoove to shoot threes. He needs to move smoove from PF to SF put AL at PF and Zaza in if he is going to do that stupid crap. At least then we have a decent chance at the rebound when he misses 80+ percent of the time.

And i hope smoove didnt work on that 3 in the offseason, if so he is making terrible progress or didnt put forth the effort that Marvin did.

[exodus]

Nice stats, but for players who average over 20 pts/ game that would still leave 60% + of their average to be scored with their backs to the basket. They are bangers who developed mid-range games.

Uhh...no. There are these things called foul shots that count as points to, not to mention putbacks, drives, cuts to the basket for dunks, fast breaks....etc.

Brand and Amare rarely play with their back to the basket and Boozer doesn't do it often.

[tomac]

exodus,

We'll just agree to disagree

[AHF]

Nice stats, but for players who average over 20 pts/ game that would still leave 60% + of their average to be scored with their backs to the basket. They are bangers who developed mid-range games.

I know you don't really think that Amare scores 60% of his points with his back to the basket, right?

That 60% includes free throws, fast break points, drives to the basket, etc. none of which are back to the basket moves. IMO, his game is the best comparison to Smoove's and he is almost entirely a face-up player, like Josh.

Boozer at least does play in the post for a significant portion of his scoring.

Edited April 8, 2009 by AHF

[Wretch]

Well...I'm in the minority here but...

First let me say that I do not want Josh Smith camping out at the 3pt line. He needs to work closer to the basket and work on his footwork, going glass, and maybe a baby hook. He would be incredible. I don't know if he's coordinated enough, but I'd really like to see him work on his shot off the dribble. He needs more control.

That being said... The mechanics of his set shot are solid and always have been. I could tell just from his HS videos and he REALLY should be shooting better at the line (but that's all mental). I don't cringe when he takes the 3pt shot. I cringe when he takes that ill-advised midrange shot after the dribble/spin move/defender in his face but I really don't mind seeing him take the wide-open long ball every once in a while.

[tomac]

I know you don't really think that Amare scores 60% of his points with his back to the basket, right?

That 60% includes free throws, fast break points, drives to the basket, etc. none of which are back to the basket moves. IMO, his game is the best comparison to Smoove's and he is almost entirely a face-up player, like Josh.

Boozer at least does play in the post for a significant portion of his scoring.

The point that I was trying to make is that Josh's game may end up being different from the guys mentioned above. Amare is probalby the best comparison, but his offensive game is more polished than Joshes. When I see Josh, I see a player who not only has tools, but a solid work ethic. If he continues to try and add new facets to his game, he'll be a beter player for it. I don't think he wnat to turn into a full-time 3 point shooter; he just wants to stretch the floor.

Secondly, I know that 60% of those players scoring doesn't actually happpen in a back-to-the-basket fashion. The point I was trying to make is that their production was just about equally split between the face-up game and the banging style. At the end of the day, it's all about matchups. Those players have the necessary tools exploit whatever kind of matchup they encounter. Josh is trying to develop that as well. As long as he uses wisdom, I don't see an issue with it.

[AHF]

The point that I was trying to make is that Josh's game may end up being different from the guys mentioned above. Amare is probalby the best comparison, but his offensive game is more polished than Joshes. When I see Josh, I see a player who not only has tools, but a solid work ethic. If he continues to try and add new facets to his game, he'll be a beter player for it. I don't think he wnat to turn into a full-time 3 point shooter; he just wants to stretch the floor.

Secondly, I know that 60% of those players scoring doesn't actually happpen in a back-to-the-basket fashion. The point I was trying to make is that their production was just about equally split between the face-up game and the banging style. At the end of the day, it's all about matchups. Those players have the necessary tools exploit whatever kind of matchup they encounter. Josh is trying to develop that as well. As long as he uses wisdom, I don't see an issue with it.

I agree with 90% of this. The part I disagree with is that I want Josh developing his game where it takes him outside the 3pt arc on offense. I want him close to the basket to grab rebounds, extend possessions, set screens, etc. I want him spending less time uselessly floating outside the 3pt arc and more time getting in the mix on offense.

So I have zero problem with him looking develop a jumper or to add new facets to his game. This facet, however, seems counterproductive and seems to be putting the cart before the horse. If Josh wants to add a jumper, which he clearly does, then master the midrange shot before going 3pt range, IMO. It will keep you in position to rebound and let you dominate the pick and roll once we get a coach who wants to run an offense with some structure.

[hawkman]

Well...I'm in the minority here but...

First let me say that I do not want Josh Smith camping out at the 3pt line. He needs to work closer to the basket and work on his footwork, going glass, and maybe a baby hook. He would be incredible. I don't know if he's coordinated enough, but I'd really like to see him work on his shot off the dribble. He needs more control.

That being said... The mechanics of his set shot are solid and always have been. I could tell just from his HS videos and he REALLY should be shooting better at the line (but that's all mental). I don't cringe when he takes the 3pt shot. I cringe when he takes that ill-advised midrange shot after the dribble/spin move/defender in his face but I really don't mind seeing him take the wide-open long ball every once in a while.

I saw the same thing before we drafted him. I(n his scouting videos, he was a fluid jumpshooter and ball handler for that matter. Back then, he was projected as a SG/SF prospect. I know he is a PF now, but those extra skills can't hurt. I truly believe he helped the team MORE the last two games because of his all around game than he hurt it. He still managed to score in the post, hit the boards, and block shots, he just added the 3 ball as an added dimension. That made him a very dangerous offensive weapon.

[DrReality]

After he made one of them it cut to Bibby on the bench and he was laughing but covered it with a towel. Guess he thinks its BS too.

[00Blink]

FTW, Josh is still developing his game as some have already stated. He is not Amare, Boozer, or Brand. He is not Dirk, Rasheed, Or Bargnani (BTW all of these 3 are 7 ft shooting the 3). Only Dirk was prolific at the 3 coming into the league. He is Josh Smith, someone who wasn't given a chance coming into the league. Someone who is not being given a chance by his own "fans". Albeit, that Joe misses more shots than Smoove some games. This is a very fickle fan base. Criticism is acceptable when it is constructive, but the pitchfork and noose mobs need to quit it. The trade scenarios and lets get rid of Josh for this playeror that player is not warranted. I betcha bottom dollar a lot of teams would LOVE to get Josh and hone-in his talent and potential. Before anyone go saying what happened to all of these teams this past offseason; use a little logic and common sense:

1. Not many teams had the money to sign him.

2. A lot of teams were/are trying to clear cap space for 2010.

3. He was restricted, knowing the Hawks would match, why waste time to even entertain this scenario, excite the fan base and then piss them off when they don't get him.

**Any one of those three reasons alone can be a number 1 reason of why there weren't much "interest" in Josh in the offseason. Go ahead and pick one, say it aloud and see if it sounds valid.

Bargnani was a perimeter shooter and not necessarily a 3 pt shooter. Rasheed wasn't shooting 3s anywhere close to the rate he is now in Portland. He DEVELOPED it in Detroit. There are other PF and C who shoot 3s also: Okur, David West, Bonner. The point is, don't try to limit the man's development into what YOU want it to be. Obviously, the coaching staff (including the shooting coach Mark Price, MARK PRICE) and his teammates believes he can develop this as part of his game. Why can't you? That makes the naysayers no better than the "experts" and "analysts" that said Smoove was gonna be a bust, until he proves you all wrong AGAIN!!

But what about his rebounding and banging and defending, he gonna become soft or his shot blocking is suffering.

1. What do his defense and shot-blocking got anything to do with his offensive game?

1a. He will be the first one back on defense if the opponent tries to run a fast break off a long rebound.

2. How can Horford battle two bigs for rebounds if Josh is shooting 3s?

2a. If Josh is at the 3 pt line, another big is on the perimeter guarding him. And if u doubt it and say they will put a guard on him, (man-zone type switch), he will back him down or penetrate, still a plus.

2b. I will take chances of Horford being one on one with a big in the hole than Al and Josh in the hole against 2 bigs that we are undersized against, to have a better chance at getting the rebound.

3. Josh will become complacent and settle for long jumpers and shoot threes.

3a. Not necessarily!! To assume this will make an *ss out of u+me.

3b. Dirk takes his fair share of 3s but he still takes perimeter shots and still plays with his back to the basket, leaning on his back foot to substitute the traditional turnaround. Sheed has started to mimic relying on the 3 moreso but he still plays with his back to the basket from time to time. Okur, that his main arsenal in his repertoire, because he is limited down low and not quick enough to blow by anyone. Same thing for Bargnani but he has a slightly better post game than Okur. David West doesn't rely on anything. His game is what he wants it to be, inside or outside. He doesn't take what the defense gives him, he gives it to the defense. Smith can be in the form of David West. If he can play wiser to the point where, if his shot is not falling drive to the basket or just stay down low, making the latter his first choice and then eventually spreading the floor by stepping out the paint. This will allow us to go with a bigger lineup with Smith, Horford, and Zaza, a matchup nightmare, but it diminishes our frontcourt bench to ineptitude.

3c. Josh at the 3pt line gives him more room and space to take his man off the dribble to get to the hole where he finishes pretty strong. And the refs don't give him a lot of calls in the lane as the same as they do Joe Johnson, Woody needs to get in the refs ear a little more about this disparity of calls.

[00Blink]

After he made one of them it cut to Bibby on the bench and he was laughing but covered it with a towel. Guess he thinks its BS too.

So Bibby is laughing because Josh made a 3 pt shot. That is what is BS. Bibby hurts the team more than JS does with his defensive liability and his shot selection. He will pull up for a three with a 3 on 1, same with Flip Murray. I guess he couldn't have been laughing at a joke or something said and then the camera seen him laughing and pointed it to him. Don't take the scene out of context, that is all I'm saying. :conversation:

[00Blink]

I agree with 90% of this. The part I disagree with is that I want Josh developing his game where it takes him outside the 3pt arc on offense. I want him close to the basket to grab rebounds, extend possessions, set screens, etc. I want him spending less time uselessly floating outside the 3pt arc and more time getting in the mix on offense.

So I have zero problem with him looking develop a jumper or to add new facets to his game. This facet, however, seems counterproductive and seems to be putting the cart before the horse. If Josh wants to add a jumper, which he clearly does, then master the midrange shot before going 3pt range, IMO. It will keep you in position to rebound and let you dominate the pick and roll once we get a coach who wants to run an offense with some structure.

Now, this is constructive criticism. Do not knock a man for trying to develop another facet to his game. Give some better alternatives on how to go about doing it.

Edited April 8, 2009 by SmooveHawksFan

[capstone21]

I want him close to the basket to grab rebounds, extend possessions, set screens, etc. I want him spending less time uselessly floating outside the 3pt arc and more time getting in the mix on offense.

So I have zero problem with him looking develop a jumper or to add new facets to his game. This facet, however, seems counterproductive and seems to be putting the cart before the horse. If Josh wants to add a jumper, which he clearly does, then master the midrange shot before going 3pt range, IMO. It will keep you in position to rebound and let you dominate the pick and roll once we get a coach who wants to run an offense with some structure.

excatly

[YoungHeezy]

Woody is stupid for drawing up a play for Smoove to shoot threes.

I think that's called instilling confidence that we trust you to take and knock down the open jumper if they give it to you. Alot of ya'll acting like he dribbling all around the court and just pulling up with hands in his face (*cough* Mike Bibby *cough*)...these are wide open 3's he are taking and for our sake making as of late. As long as he doesn't keep shooting them when he misses a few we'll be fine.

[JackB1]

I have seen Josh throw up way too many bricks from 3 point land to think he can just work on it a little and become a worthwhile 3 pt shooter. I think he should work on the things that we NEED from him, like rebounding, boxing out, post moves, driving to the hoop. He have enough 3 point shooters on this team...we dont need our 6'9 power forward working on his 3 point shot! It doesn't make any sense to me.