Crawford is not a PG. Crawford is not a 6th man.

[exodus]

I never said Offense wins titles... There you go making up stuff.

I said PPG differential wins titles.

You can get there by offense or defense. Most people choose defense, but offense can do it as well. These Lakers and Showtime Lakers did it with offense.

BTW... these Lakers were #1 in offensive efficiency...

AND their players were more offensive than defensive.

but.. you go ahead. Back to your agenda...

Lets look at your exact words to refresh your memory since you obviously forgot what you wrote.

When you look at the World Champion Los Angeles Lakers... they were not a good defensive team.

So the team that ranked 2nd in defensive efficiency wasn't a good defensive team? That is a stretch even for Diesel Math.

[MaceCase]

From my understanding, Woody is a defensive coach

From my further understanding Flip is gone due to this deal

From my furtherer understanding both Manu, JT and Barbosa come off the bench for this thing called "balance"

From my futhererer understanding Jamal Crawford is not a good defender

From my furtherest understanding a lineup of Bibby/Joe/Marvin/Smith/Al is a better balanced and less defensively liable lineup than Bibby/Crawford/Joe/Smith/Al

But if we just want to argue a starting 5 taking 20 shots each and no bench being effective then sure I'll play ball otherwise this thread has no legs.

[atlien]

Some of this is ridiculous.

Crawford will be the 6th man next year. Sund did not get him to 1) try to get him to play the point or 2) to move Marvin to the bench.

Sheesh. He is perfectly suited as a scoring 6th man.

[Diesel]

Lets look at your exact words to refresh your memory since you obviously forgot what you wrote.

So the team that ranked 2nd in defensive efficiency wasn't a good defensive team? That is a stretch even for Diesel Math.

Context is everything...

What I was saying is that they are not composed of players known for good defense.

Please continue with your plug and play quote ripping!

[Diesel]

From my understanding, Woody is a defensive coach

From my further understanding Flip is gone due to this deal

From my furtherer understanding both Manu, JT and Barbosa come off the bench for this thing called "balance"

From my futhererer understanding Jamal Crawford is not a good defender

From my furtherest understanding a lineup of Bibby/Joe/Marvin/Smith/Al is a better balanced and less defensively liable lineup than Bibby/Crawford/Joe/Smith/Al

But if we just want to argue a starting 5 taking 20 shots each and no bench being effective then sure I'll play ball otherwise this thread has no legs.

You got a lot of guesswork amoungst some facts.

Here's a thought for you to chew on...

Bibby is not a defensive PG, yet we traded AJ and Lue for him. Together, AJ and Lue should have provided more defense and scoring than Bibby... But we won more with Bibby.

What gives?

Maybe it's that.. you can't just go with what's on paper?

[exodus]

Context is everything...

What I was saying is that they are not composed of players known for good defense.

Please continue with your plug and play quote ripping!

Saying the Lakers aren't a good defensive team is flat out wrong regardless of context.

If the Lakers defense is so weak why did Howard only score 15 ppg against them.

[MaceCase]

You got a lot of guesswork amoungst some facts.

Here's a thought for you to chew on...

Bibby is not a defensive PG, yet we traded AJ and Lue for him. Together, AJ and Lue should have provided more defense and scoring than Bibby... But we won more with Bibby.

What gives?

Maybe it's that.. you can't just go with what's on paper?

Or maybe Bibby was a superior point to both and his lack of defense was mitigated by the fact we had 4 others guys that could defend and his scoring plus Flip's or Chill's off the bench equaled more than Lue or Johnson could hope to achieve.

It's not guesswork it's called using a brain without a preconditioned agenda. JT, Manu and Barbosa are all high priced, high scoring starters that are brought off the bench. Why? Because in this game called basketball you don't play your starting 5 48 minutes. Things like foul trouble and fatigue get in the way so when your starters go to the bench now you have lineups with no one that can score, rebound or whatever strength your starters had.

If you sit your starters and you bring a guy that can start off the bench, guess what you have? Continuity and therefore balance that your team can put up points even when key players rest.

Why didn't the Nuggets start JR? Why didn't the Lakers start Odom? Magic start Pietrus? Portland start Outlaw? It goes on and on my friend so get a clue please as to why it's done.

[Diesel]

Saying the Lakers aren't a good defensive team is flat out wrong regardless of context.

If the Lakers defense is so weak why did Howard only score 15 ppg against them.

Maybe because Howard is not a good offensive big in the first place? Secondly, Stan Van Gundy is the master of panic. Didn't you notice that throughout the playoffs, Stan stopped feeding Howard in close games. DIdn't Howard have to ask for the ball in the Celtic series??

In the series against the Lakers, he attempted: 6, 10, 6, 12, and 9 shots respectively...

So you mean to tell me that the Lakers defense is so good that it tells Stan Van Gundy to give Howard 6 shots for the game?

Those are attempts Sonny. Attempts. If we had Howard do you think at any time we'd allow him to play 36 minutes and get 6 freakin attempts.

The Lakers should send SVG a thank you bush and a panic button!!

[Plainview1981]

Maybe because Howard is not a good offensive big in the first place? Secondly, Stan Van Gundy is the master of panic. Didn't you notice that throughout the playoffs, Stan stopped feeding Howard in close games. DIdn't Howard have to ask for the ball in the Celtic series??

In the series against the Lakers, he attempted: 6, 10, 6, 12, and 9 shots respectively...

So you mean to tell me that the Lakers defense is so good that it tells Stan Van Gundy to give Howard 6 shots for the game?

Those are attempts Sonny. Attempts. If we had Howard do you think at any time we'd allow him to play 36 minutes and get 6 freakin attempts.

The Lakers should send SVG a thank you bush and a panic button!!

If you give Howard too many shots attempts he will just end up missing a ton of free throws in the end.

[Dragitoff]

Saying the Lakers aren't a good defensive team is flat out wrong regardless of context.

If the Lakers defense is so weak why did Howard only score 15 ppg against them.

It's the same reason why teams locked JJ down during some games yet the Hawks still scored over 100pts. Your game plan with either be shut down Player A and make the rest of the team beat you or Let Player A get his points and focus your D on the rest of the team. The Lakers have some high energy guys, but I honestly don't think I'd classify them as a great defensive team. Actually, I'd really compare them defensively to the Hawks.

PG-Lakers better defensively than Hawks although Fisher has lot a step over the past few years.

SG-Both JJ and Kobe are solid defenders

SF-both Marvin and Ariza are long and athletic (although Marvin is 3" taller) which gives their man a little trouble. Both are active and play aggressively on defense.

PF-Both Gasol and Smith are good shotblockers but generally neither are excellent man defenders. Pau has more size so maybe does a little better job

C-Bynum is a big man down low, but gets into foul trouble. Horford is smaller, but generally plays pretty good defensively

Bench: Both have a few guys who play high energy and can make great defensively plays for short periods of time.

[coachx]

Don't waist your time argueing with Diesel. He will argue the sky is not green if it fits his agenda.

[exodus]

It's the same reason why teams locked JJ down during some games yet the Hawks still scored over 100pts. Your game plan with either be shut down Player A and make the rest of the team beat you or Let Player A get his points and focus your D on the rest of the team. The Lakers have some high energy guys, but I honestly don't think I'd classify them as a great defensive team. Actually, I'd really compare them defensively to the Hawks.

PG-Lakers better defensively than Hawks although Fisher has lot a step over the past few years.

SG-Both JJ and Kobe are solid defenders

SF-both Marvin and Ariza are long and athletic (although Marvin is 3" taller) which gives their man a little trouble. Both are active and play aggressively on defense.

PF-Both Gasol and Smith are good shotblockers but generally neither are excellent man defenders. Pau has more size so maybe does a little better job

C-Bynum is a big man down low, but gets into foul trouble. Horford is smaller, but generally plays pretty good defensively

Bench: Both have a few guys who play high energy and can make great defensively plays for short periods of time.

You seriously compare them to the Hawks? They are the opposit of the Hawks.

The Hawks have a badly undersized front line that gets killed on the defensive glass. The Lakers have one of if not the tallest front lines in the league and are a great rebounding team. The better a team's defensive rebounding the better their defense is automatically. The Lakers led the league in defensive rebounding.

Not to mention that Kobe has made several All-Defensive First Teams.

[Traceman]

Some of this is ridiculous.

Crawford will be the 6th man next year. Sund did not get him to 1) try to get him to play the point or 2) to move Marvin to the bench.

Sheesh. He is perfectly suited as a scoring 6th man.

I think that this whole idea of deciding who is going to start NOW is premature. I think that this trade is GREAT and that it potentially represents a significant move forward for the team but we need to let the whole thing play itself out. Sund still has a LOT of work to do including deciding what to do with #19 and deciding what to do with all of our free agents.

Personally, what I would like to see is for Sund to bring back ALL of the FAs who were significant contributors (Marv, Bibby, Flip & Zaza) in addition to bringing in Crawford. If we can sign Marv to a long term deal starting somewhere around his qualifying offer, I'd be happy to do it and I would hope we could get Bibby for something starting at (or perhaps SLIGHTLY above) the MLE (no more than 3 years). I'd like to see Zaza back at a similar number and I'd like Flip back with a slight raise. That would give us a MINIMUM of 9 players who we KNOW can contribute NOW with a #19 pick to add to the mix.

I could see us going a few different ways at #19 (assuming we keep the pick). Personally, I would PREFER a PG. I'm hoping for Flynn (who I suspect will be gone), Lawson (who may be there), Jennings (who some have dropping but I think will be gone) or Holiday (same as Jennings) in that order. If we go big, I like Djuan Blair but I also wouldn't be upset if we get a SF like Terence Williams, Earl Clark or possibly Sam Young to back up Marvin.

In addition, I wouldn't mind seeing if the rights to Chillz/#19 could get us in the conversation for one of Tyreke Evans, Steph Curry or Ricky Rubio. I MIGHT do that same deal for Jonny Flynn. If one of those guys drops a little, I'd have to make the pitch. I'd like to have Chillz back but I just don't see it at this point so we might as well get something for him if we can.

[Lascar78]

I think that this whole idea of deciding who is going to start NOW is premature.

I agree. But you know Sund has a direction in mind. And people are hoping that he is looking in one direction and not the other.