Player comparison.

[Diesel]

Many of us shutter at the thought of Bibby making over 7 million per year.

Well.

IF Bibby is not worth 7 million per year...

What makes Marvin worth 7 million per year...

for this discussion, talk about impact...

and try to not discuss Potential.

[buckeye242424]

One could argue that Bibby fills less of a need on our team right now. Currently we have Teague and Crawford to play point. At the 3, we have just Mo Evans so the impact of adding Marvin would be greater than adding Bibby because Marvin is a better upgrade. Comparing Bibby and Marvin is like apples and oranges, they play different positions. So we should focus on their impact when on the team.

Just throwing it out there so you can have something to discuss D.

Good post. It's hard not to factor in position, and needs. And age for that matter.

[mrhonline]

The phrase "ad nauseum" comes to mind, but I'll play anyway.

Reasons to sign Marvin at a salary starting of $7M (no particular order):

Age (distinct from potential)

Athleticism

Annual improvement

Offensive efficiency

Chemistry

Team-first mentality

Defensive effort

Versatility

Ability to get to FT line

Past success of similar players

Edited July 4, 2009 by mrhonline

[atlien]

Easy.

Marvin is still on the upswing of his career.

Bibby is on the downswing of his.

[Diesel]

One could argue that Bibby fills less of a need on our team right now. Currently we have Teague and Crawford to play point. At the 3, we have just Mo Evans so the impact of adding Marvin would be greater than adding Bibby because Marvin is a better upgrade. Comparing Bibby and Marvin is like apples and oranges, they play different positions. So we should focus on their impact when on the team.

Just throwing it out there so you can have something to discuss D.

OK, let's talk about need.

With Joe and Mo manning the 3 position, we had a winning record down the stretch. Plus, we can still resign Chillz for cheaper... about 1.8 million to start cheaper.

[Diesel]

The phrase "ad nauseum" comes to mind, but I'll play anyway.

Reasons to sign Marvin at a salary starting of $7M (no particular order):

Age (distinct from potential)

Athleticism

Annual improvement

Offensive efficiency

Chemistry

Team-first mentality

Defensive effort

Versatility

Ability to get to FT line

Past success of similar players

I have bolded all of those things that are potential dependent.

Basically, if you erase potential from our vocabulary then what difference does age make? Bibby is a whole helluva lot more impactful than Marvin while he is age 31 and Marvin is age 23. You can't count on potential to save you here. Just becuase he's young, doesn't mean that he will be any better than he is right now.

The annual improvement is a joke right?

As a 19 year old Rookie, Marvin per 36 went like this:

12.4 pp36, 7.1 rp36, 1.2 ap36, 44.3% FG.

whereas as a 22 year old 4th year player :

14.5 pp36, 6.6 rp36, 1.4 ap36, 45.8% FG.

That's not much of a change. In fact, if you just look over his last three years when he played about 34.3 mpg average... Marvin's numbers are about the same. NO CHANGE. IN fact, from last year to this year: His ppg, rpg, FG%, and FT% all dropped.

When you guys pull out this improved annually, what the hell are you looking at? One stat? If all you look at is the fact that his three point percentage moved from 10% to 32% then you will fail to see that his FG% went from 46.2% to 45.8% or that his scoring went from 14.8 ppg to 13.9 ppg.

Let's end the fairy tales, shall we?

[Diesel]

Easy.

Marvin is still on the upswing of his career.

Bibby is on the downswing of his.

Who is to say that Marvin hasn't reached his peak?

or did you not read what I said previoiusly??

You're guessing that somehow Marvin is going to get better.

Well, from last year to this year, we've already seen a drop in his scoring, rebounds, and FG% from the previous year.

Maybe Marvin is on his downswing?

ALSO, a bad back! Bibby has had some injuries but nothing as debilitating and uncurable as a bad back.

By the way, Bibby had better stats last year than he did back in 2007.

[Diesel]

That addresses only half of my post. Where is the need for Bibby?

Your other point was about the question and it's relevance.

Here's my response.

When you start to talk about money and need, apples and oranges all become the same thing... fruit.

The Lakers just picked up Ron Artest over Trevor Ariza mainly because Artest would come in and take the MLE. There were definite skillset considerations, but the major driving force for that pickup was Artests willingness to take the MLE. Artest and Ariza both are the same type of player.. the main difference is that Artest is a little better. However, Ariza is younger. Notice how youth played no role. Buss didn't care how much potential Ariza had. Buss only cared about who can win and who can he afford.

[mrhonline]

I have bolded all of those things that are potential dependent.

You're going to have to explain how "potential" has anything to do with his not being old, not stalling in his past development, and how past players with similar skills set have succeeded. Please focus on what I've actually said rather than your interpretation of what you think I am saying.

Also, please respond to the other items in my argument. Otherwise, we will all assume you are conceding them as valid reasons to re-sign Marvin.

Thanks.

[Wurider05]

I have not read this thread but I am pretty sure that it is about Marvin and that it is negative. :beathorse: :beathorse: :beathorse:

[Diesel]

You're going to have to explain how "potential" has anything to do with his not being old, not stalling in his past development, and how past players with similar skills set have succeeded.

The original question was the difference between Marvin and Bibby concerning 7 million dollars and worth.

31 is not old. Especially for a PG who will be splitting time with the guy taking his place. Right now, Andre Miller is 33. Steve Nash is 34. Derrick Fisher is 34. Chauncey Billups is 32 . And all these guys are still playing at a high level. The 7 million dollar stopping point question is what has Marvin done to deserve 7 million dollars aside be a guy who has loads of potential. Potential plus $2.00 will get you a cup of coffee in some places.

So when you talk about Bibby being "old" I counter with but he's not old. Especially if he's sharing his time. When you said Age before, I could have sworn you were talking about Marvin.

Second: Past players with similar skillsets.

You know Ron Harper had similar skillsets to Micheal Jordan. And so did Harold Miner and if you let Babcock tell it so did Roy Marble. Does that mean that they are Jordan? Anfrenee Hardaway, Joe Johnson, and even Reece Gaines had the same skillsets as Magic Johnson. Do they fit together? CHildress and Pippen? Odom and KG?

Having a skillset is one thing, however, desire makes the player. Desire is why Harold Miner never made it past his first contract. Desire is why Lamar Odom can not be KG. For you to proclaim that Marvin has the same skillset as another player means that somehow you believe that maybe he will turn out like the other guy. Maybe that's just misplaced hope? However, it's dressed up like potential. You're saying Marvin has the potential to be like Rashard Lewis. Well, Marvin didn't have to sit in the green room and watch his name not be called like Lewis did. Marvin didn't have to sit on the bench and wait for playing time while fearing he might be cut like Lewis did. Marvin may have the skillset, but I doubt he has the desire because he don't have the same drive.

[Diesel]

D you definitely missed my point and went on some strange tangent. Fruit? They aren't the same thing. Who would value Dwyane Wade more, the Bobcats or the Lakers? By your logic, its the same fruit so they would both value Dwyane Wade the same. Thats missing the point.

If Both the Lakers and the Bobcats had the money to get wade, you don't think they would both try hard to get him? If you're saying that somehow the Lakers will value him less, then I guess I did miss your point because I don't agree.

[NJHAWK]

Bibby gives defensive effort he is just not as long and athletic as Marv. Bibby is not quick enough to stay with the fast pg's and combo g' when he is isolated with them. However in a team defense he does very well.

[thefloydian]

We need Marvin. We don't need Bibby.

[exodus]

I think Diesel has a drinking problem....

[DrReality]

The phrase "ad nauseum" comes to mind, but I'll play anyway.

Love this part of your post . . . . . . but I'm not going to play. Tired argument and there is no convincing Diesel.

[hawksrule9]

Mike Bibby is a proven vet that provides great leadership and clutch shooting. He clicks with our team so well and as been a huge factor in our playoff run. His numbers are good and he can still run. I think that he will improve even more this year because he now has Crawford that will get good minutes at the pg position and Bibby wouldn't be worn down or tired.

I love Marv and would do everything I can to resign him. He is still very young and showed me improvement this year with his outside shooting. His mid range jumper is beautiful to watch and he can drive a little bit as well. I think his numbers will continue to improve and I see his drving game increasing.

[Diesel]

We need Marvin. We don't need Bibby.

Floyd in your simple, short answer, I think you have the principles wrong.

We need Bibby... (we currently don't have an experienced PG on the team). We don't need Marvin (Wings are a dime a dozen). We have 3 and a possible on our team right now.

[Diesel]

Hawksrule,

No offense, but I have edited your comments for truth.

Mike Bibby is a proven vet that provides great leadership and clutch shooting. He clicks with our team so well and as been a huge factor in our playoff run. His numbers are good and he can still run. I think that he could improve even more this year because he now has Crawford that will get good minutes at the pg position and Bibby shouldn't be worn down or tired.

I love Marv and would do everything I can to resign him. He is still very young and showed me improvement this year with his outside shooting. His mid range jumper is beautiful to watch and he can drive a little bit as well. I hope his numbers will continue to improve and I hope his drving game increases.

I