Hawksquawk Bias?

[Diesel]

I actually ran a poll here the other day asking about the brighter future of Brandan Wright vs. Marvin Williams. I have always seen these guys as the same guy with one difference.. Wright is bigger and plays more physically.

To wit, said poll was 37 - 0 for Marvin.

In fact, GSUTEKE did me the favor of locking the thread? (actually this fits in the data as well).

However, I ran the same poll on the GS forum's page.

If you read their page, they hate Wright. Many of them despise him and they even call him v-g--- which is an insult regardless of how you look at it.

However, with that much hate on their board...

It wasn't unanimous for Marvin. (17 to 10 currently)... I expect that to change drastically because of what I will mention next.

This isn't about Marvin.

This is about Hawksquawk's view of Marvin. I think squawkers are overly sensitive when it comes to Marvin Williams. Hawksquawk has Marvin Williams blinders on and anybody who says anything contrary to the rank and file love of Marvin Williams is berated.

[sturt]

Well, first, Marvin and Wright may have a similar physical form, but obviously, both their skill set and their accomplishments on the court are drastically different... so, you have to admit that you're stretching here....

But let's put that aside and assume for the sake of argument that you have a point here... so forgive the obvious question that follows... to what degree would you assign that bias to a reaction to your own activities here regarding Marvin?

And... to your knowledge, is there someone on the GS board who has such an overtly anti-Brendan reputation as you have an anti-Marvin reputation?

[Peoriabird]

I actually ran a poll here the other day asking about the brighter future of Brandan Wright vs. Marvin Williams. I have always seen these guys as the same guy with one difference.. Wright is bigger and plays more physically.

To wit, said poll was 37 - 0 for Marvin.

In fact, GSUTEKE did me the favor of locking the thread? (actually this fits in the data as well).

However, I ran the same poll on the GS forum's page.

If you read their page, they hate Wright. Many of them despise him and they even call him v-g--- which is an insult regardless of how you look at it.

However, with that much hate on their board...

It wasn't unanimous for Marvin. (17 to 10 currently)... I expect that to change drastically because of what I will mention next.

This isn't about Marvin.

This is about Hawksquawk's view of Marvin. I think squawkers are overly sensitive when it comes to Marvin Williams. Hawksquawk has Marvin Williams blinders on and anybody who says anything contrary to the rank and file love of Marvin Williams is berated.

You of all people trying to accuse others of being bias! :laughing5:

[exodus]

[Brotha2ThaNite]

I'm sorry D but I think the fans are voting this way because of what they saw from Marvin last year. Before last year I would be right on your bandwagon.... matter of fact I was. I was also killing Zaza too before last year but last year to me they both stepped their games up.

I would say Marvin was our most improved player last year with Zaza coming in at a close secound. Third was Bibby.

The only thing that got me so hyped about this coming season is how will those 3 play...... WE ALL KNOW IT WAS THEIR CONTRACT YEAR. :whistling:

I hope they continue to play better and not let us down now that they got their money

Oh another thing, I don't know if you notice or not but must fans always think other team's players are always better then they are until that player is playing on their team. So to have no one vote for Wright that really says a lot. :cheers:

Edited August 1, 2009 by Brotha2ThaNite

[Diesel]

Well, first, Marvin and Wright may have a similar physical form, but obviously, both their skill set and their accomplishments on the court are drastically different... so, you have to admit that you're stretching here....

But let's put that aside and assume for the sake of argument that you have a point here... so forgive the obvious question that follows... to what degree would you assign that bias to a reaction to your own activities here regarding Marvin?

And... to your knowledge, is there someone on the GS board who has such an overtly anti-Brendan reputation as you have an anti-Marvin reputation?

As far as the questions you raise, I don't think it matters when asking a person their opinion. When somebody asks you your opinion of anything, do you actually consider who asked the question in giving your answer? I mean, if you do, then you are not being 100% honest... However, for the most part, I think this place a role in what goes on here at Hawksquawk. You have a bunch of guys who are more concerned about answering Diesel's question than answering honestly. Seriously... from 37-0 to 17-10 is a great jump. It almost makes it seem that anything brought about in reference to Marvin here will be skewed beyond the norm that you would expect for a fansite.

Another example is that if the question were was Joe Johnson worthy of his allstar nomination this past year. I'm sure that there wouldn't have been a unanimous voice here on Hawksquawk nor would there have been a need to close the poll (if there were one). That's very telling considering that Joe Johnson is the "face" of the Hawks and Marvin is a 4th option here. I think the fans here specifically have a bias that is not seen elsewhere. Even when I read comments on AJC...AJC sees things totally different than this fanbase and the funny thing is that alot of the fanbase here are on AJC also.

[Diesel]

Oh another thing, I don't know if you notice or not but must fans always think other team's players are always better then they are until that player is playing on their team. So to have no one vote for Wright that really says a lot. :cheers:

If I were to challenge this notion, I would poll the question... Who has the brighter future, Smoove or M. Beasley. Do you think Smoove would get a unanimous vote here? Or how about Horf or Jason Thompson. Do you think Horf would get a unanimous vote?

[Robdawg]

If I were to challenge this notion, I would poll the question... Who has the brighter future, Smoove or M. Beasley. Do you think Smoove would get a unanimous vote here? Or how about Horf or Jason Thompson. Do you think Horf would get a unanimous vote?

Chuck Norris would get an unanimous vote......

I would take Marvin any day over that other UNC guy.

[Diesel]

Chuck Norris would get an unanimous vote......

I would take Marvin any day over that other UNC guy.

It's funny that people are so quick to talk down about Wright.

At 21...

His PER is 18.7. His TS% = .570 . His TND/48 = 26.37.

At 22

Marvin's PER is 16. Marvin TS% = .569. Marvin's TND/48 = 21.78.

Some people said that it's ludicrous, dumb, etc to compare these two players and the expectation for their futures. Statistically... There's a strong argument that this was not a ludicrous or dumb comparison at all. At this juncture in his career, Wright doesn't play as much as Marvin, but I would have to think that that's about the change.

"The PERsums up all a player's positive accomplishments, subtracts the negative accomplishments, and returns a per-minute rating of a player's performance."

Doug's Tendex Explaination Page

The 'TND' fields is really just my version of the Tendex rating system. Based on the approximate Point-Per-Possession, each statistical category can be related to the game's scoring. Every time you make a basket, you have made 2 points for your team. Every basket you miss, you lose possession, and subsequently lose 1 point for your team (of course, if a team member gets an offensive rebound, that player will gain possession, and 1 TND point).

Players who have a higher TND value than their scoring average will tend to contribute to their team in ways other then scoring (i.e. high assist or rebound players). While the opposite suggets players who's job is mainly to score.

While I IN NO WAY, claim this stat to be an end-all way to rank all the players, I use it to give another data point as to how well a player is contributing to their team.

The current MyTendex formula is:

(PTS - FGmsd - FTmsd/2 + 0.5*m3 + 1.25*st + 1.25*as + bl + reb - 1.25*to - tc - 2*ff - pf/2)

/ GamesPlayed

There is also a TND value normalized to 48 minutes.

[RedDawg#8]

Deisel, Its not a bias,

When that many people on this board, and on the GS board agree on it, maybe its just the plain truth. Obviously you dont think Marv is better but you made the poll, people responed, so take it for what its worth and not for what you want it to mean.

We understand the results didnt come out the way you wanted, but that doesnt mean we did something wrong. You asked, you got an answer.

Maybe you should try to just accept Marv, and root for the guy. Im sure if the results came out different you would be telling us to root against him, so im personally requesting you just step back for a moment, put all the negative data on Marvin that you have collected over the years to the side, and just appreciate the positive things he brings to your favorite team, cuz guess what....he is here for 5 more seasons buddy.

Nobody here thinks the guy is a star player, we all know he was drafted way too high. And if YOU didnt criticize his game to the point where damn near everybody on here has to defend him, there might be more people who agreed with you, and said the more of the same things you feel, but your perpetual scrutinizing of the man has made people begin to appreciate him more as we research and find out that he is actually better than we give him credit for.

Your like a teenager who gets into it with a friend and stops talking to them, then you tell all your other friends not to like that person too, but over time people forget about what happened and like that person again, while your pride is too big to just forgive them and move on. So now you find yourself more isolated from everybody all because of a grudge that you probably cant remember how it began.

To Mr. Deisel, I say....let it go. take a deep breath, and free your mind of this hatred. Release yourself of the stress of trying to make us not like Marvin too. Forgive him for his lofty draft status and average career to date. Use your energy to instead think positively about his potential and cheer your favorite team on

Edited August 1, 2009 by RedDawg#8

[exodus]

Wright plays on a crap team with a run and gun style and has no competition for playing time but still stuggles to get minutes. Why? Because he is 210 pounds and can't shoot outside 5 feet. he might put up some stats on a run and gun team but that doesn't change the fact that a 210 pounder isn't going to be able to guard 4s and he has no perimeter game so he can't play the 3.

Who is Wright competing with for minutes? If he had a solid game he would be playing 30 minutes, not 17.

Do you think Childress is better than JJ? After all Childress had a higher PER.

Edited August 1, 2009 by exodus

[MaceCase]

If anything the votes against Marvin are probably skewed for the same reason that some on here are biased against him. To many outside of the fanbase Marvin is simply known as the guy drafted ahead of Chris Paul and Deron Williams. By the same merit I've read on message boards people calling Bogut a bust and in the same sentence as Kwame Brown. To those who don't get to follow these teams, especially since they are not in the national spotlight, all they can do is make generalizations. So warriors fans may dislike Wright but to them atleast they didn't pass over anyone special to get him and even then their votes are still heavily in favor of Marv.

[ShooterMcGavin]

You ask Atlanta fans whether their starting SF, at age 23, has more potential than a RESERVE 21 year old forward on the West Coast.

Check. Unanimous Atlanta.

You ask fans of Brandan's own team.

Check. Almost 2-1 ........................wait a minute.....2-1 for ATLANTA?!?!

This is hardly a bias. The Golden State vote is like a presidential candidate getting stomped in his own state. I'm surprised the forums went that far in Marvin's direction, to tell you the truth.

The only "bias" on this board, as other have pointed out, is your irrational hate for Williams.

[DrReality]

You of all people trying to accuse others of being bias! :laughing5:

Got him!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Brotha2ThaNite]

If I were to challenge this notion, I would poll the question... Who has the brighter future, Smoove or M. Beasley. Do you think Smoove would get a unanimous vote here? Or how about Horf or Jason Thompson. Do you think Horf would get a unanimous vote?

Now c'mon man, let not get crazy. You know what I'm talking about.

How about how all the fans were going crazy about trade Smoove for Amare. That's what I'm talking about.

I kept saying you do not want amare because of his history with injuries.

I will take Smoove miss 3pt any day over Amare's history with injuries. That 3pt can get better but with every injury it makes it slows down that person.

Now look at Amare...

[buckeye242424]

I actually ran a poll here the other day asking about the brighter future of Brandan Wright vs. Marvin Williams. I have always seen these guys as the same guy with one difference.. Wright is bigger and plays more physically.

To wit, said poll was 37 - 0 for Marvin.

In fact, GSUTEKE did me the favor of locking the thread? (actually this fits in the data as well).

However, I ran the same poll on the GS forum's page.

If you read their page, they hate Wright. Many of them despise him and they even call him v-g--- which is an insult regardless of how you look at it.

However, with that much hate on their board...

It wasn't unanimous for Marvin. (17 to 10 currently)... I expect that to change drastically because of what I will mention next.

This isn't about Marvin.

This is about Hawksquawk's view of Marvin. I think squawkers are overly sensitive when it comes to Marvin Williams. Hawksquawk has Marvin Williams blinders on and anybody who says anything contrary to the rank and file love of Marvin Williams is berated.

Of course there's a bias Diesel. You're polling a question to die-hard Hawks fans comparing a current Hawk, to a non-Hawk. A current Hawk that has been a part of a turnaround that had us at the bottom of the NBA. Bias? Without a doubt...as apparent in your results. I'm not sure what you were trying to prove by even asking that question....other than everyone here loves the Hawks.

[Diesel]

Of course there's a bias Diesel. You're polling a question to die-hard Hawks fans comparing a current Hawk, to a non-Hawk. A current Hawk that has been a part of a turnaround that had us at the bottom of the NBA. Bias? Without a doubt...as apparent in your results. I'm not sure what you were trying to prove by even asking that question....other than everyone here loves the Hawks.

So by that token, it should be the same if the poll was Smoove vs. Beasley or Horf vs. Thompson?

Like I said previously, I think what goes on here with Marvin (specifically) is outside of the range of what a DIEHARD fanbase does.

For those who think that it's a love affair for BW wih GS fans?

Does this sound familiar??

I think when you don't see the passion in a guy's game that people give him a harder time over his inadequacies. Wright has all the talent one could hope for, we just want to see him push himself to become stronger and more intense on the court. I think Nellie wants the same thing.

[AnakinJoe]

Here's what I don't understand about the question... how would a Hawks fan living anywhere but the Bay Area be able to answer that question (Williams or Wirght)? Wright has played about 1,000 minutes as a pro. To put that in perspective, Acie Law has played around 1,400 minutes. And many Hawks fans feel like Acie didn't get enough time to prove himself one way or another. Yet, Acie has had 40% more playing time than Wright (Solo has also played 40-50% more minutes than Wright). So unless you are religiously watching the Warriors games for the rare opportunity to actually see Wright on the floor, how could you possibly answer the question... what would it even be based on? What they did as college freshmen?

[tonegully]

Marvin is better than Wright.

[thecampster]

Wow, I just received this email response.

Dear Mr. Thecampster

I find this sad really. There has to be some common ground on this issue. Personally, I think the parties involved over reacted. So I've decided that in the interest of helping all parties get along, I am sending personal invitations to Mr. Diesel and Marvin Williams to share a beer with me in the rose garden at the White House. I've also decided to let Mr. Exodus attend the meeting but not participate in any actual drinking as I feel he was only a spectator and not a party to the event between Mr. Williams and Mr. Diesel that has so much gotten out of hand. That he, Exodus, was only a casualty of the years of hate and not a true part of the problem and therefore doesn't deserve a beer. I would also like to apologize to Hawksquawk and Dolfan for stating that the Hawks front office acted "stupidly" in drafting Marvin Williams second overall. I should have chosen my words better and hope that this only leads to better communication on everyone's part in the future. Thank you for alerting me to the situation and giving me the opportunity to use alcohol to attempt to fix years of pain, abuse and misunderstanding.

Your friend and president,

Barack Obama

Unbelievable really that he would take the time to respond and try to participate in a discussion of this much importance. I only hope that both Diesel and MW accept the invitation and we as a Hawksquawk nation can finally move on.

Edited August 2, 2009 by thecampster