58 Responses to “Joe Johnson is good, not great”

[jy23]

Allow me to clarify, since you seem to have misunderstood me. The point wasn't really that he had a gold medal, but that he played on the U.S. Olympic team. He wasn't an alternate, like Joe Johnson.

How many good guards can you name in the league and how many good bigs can you name off the top of your head? Joe had WAY more competition than Bosh did.

[thescout5]

How many good guards can you name in the league and how many good bigs can you name off the top of your head? Joe had WAY more competition than Bosh did.

That's just it Joe has more competition but it makes my point there are more scoring shooting guards in the league than capable big men. I meant Marvin is a softy in the sense he doesn't play to his physical build. You can be a small man and prodce big numbers.Bosh is rail thin but puts up numbers you would like to see a big man make.. I'll say it for a 3rd time Joe is a good player not great. Bosh I would take over him but I don't think Bosh can carry a team by himself. P layers like Duncan,Kobe,Lebron only a small number can do that. Until the Hawks get a top 10 player the franchise will never get past the second round or go deep in the playoffs.

[thefloydian]

The real problem is the way the league economy works. People will always be willing to overpay someone like Joe and it makes it so that even though he's not as good as someone like Kobe, his huge salary will always prevent his team from signing another really good player unless they manage to draft an all-star. That's the only way I see a team with Joe as its best player making the playoffs. He needs another player of his caliber or slightly below.

[MaceCase]

Give me 6 or 7 talented players over 8 or 9 scrubs. Your 5 "decent" players who still could not compare to our supporting cast. The rest of the Raptors team was far from spectacular, and probably wouldn't have gotten any PT in Atlanta.

Abject failure ? What do you have against Bosh ? You're obviously dreaming if you think Bosh's career has been a failure. So, are you now arguing that Bosh is not a superstar ? I can guarantee you more people know about Chris Bosh than Joe Johnson, and his team isn't even in this country. The league being starved for big men is no excuse. When has the league ever had excess big men ? It's just harder to find skilled big men like Bosh than it is to find wingmen like Johnson. The fact still remains, 4 out of his 6 years in the league, Bosh has been an All-Star. He averaged 23/11 in their first playoff run. He's going to get you 20+ points and 9+ rebounds. He puts up better numbers than Joe. You don't just stumble unto an All-NBA team.

Let's see. That magical season of 06-07 that propeled Bosh into "superstardom" also saw Sam Mitchell win coach of the year, I don't know why seeing as all he coached was Bosh on that team, Jerry Colangelo win executive of the year, I don't know why seeing as he didn't actually acquire anyone worth a damn but two all-rookie first teamers in Garbojosa and Bargnani, I don't know how but must have been an extremely weak draft year, and the arrival of one of the better pure point guards in the league TJ Ford, fresh from leading the Bucks back to their first playoff appearances since a guy named Ray was there. The team won 47 games and a division crown on their way to a 3rd seed. On the back of such a successful year for the franchise Chris Bosh made the 2nd team all-nba despite inferior individual statistics to Kevin Garnett and Carmelo because they already voted in one SF in Lebron and KG's team barely mustered 35 wins that year. All that success was for nought because despite drawing the inferior division foe with a .500 record in the New Jersey Nets, the team, especially Bosh, caved.

Following a season where Bosh averaged 22ppg, 10rpg, 1blk, on .49% shooting he went into his first playoffs and averaged 17ppg and 9rpg on 39% shooting. Now suprisingly to you his teammates all picked up their scoring averages by over 2 points, Calderon emerged as a force and TJ Ford picked up his regular season PER of 18 and pushed it to an amazing 27.3! Despite the Herculean efforts by the diminutive guard the team still fell 4-2.

That successful season was TJ Ford's healthiest and here's where we draw the parable. The next season, thanks to our resident Florida alum and other nagging injuries, Ford only played 51 games, started 26 because Mitchell wanted to tweak with his lineup and unsuprisingly that team won fewer games. The next season after that Ford is gone entirely and what do we see? Bosh has been consistent but apparently without others around him that didn't translate to wins now or even before Ford and others arrived. His most successful season all coincided with so many other factors but yea you can continue thinking Bosh is a superstar that can actually carry a team of scrubs, most of which are still in the league with freshly inked deals even.

[Diesel]

Diesel, the problem is that people seem to forget why that Toronto team won. They won, not only because of Bosh, but also because of Ford and Calderon. People seem to forget just how great of a duo they collectively were.

Ford was the relentless penetrator that you had to try to stop from getting into the lane. If you collapsed on Ford, he'd kick it out to guys like Parker, Mo Pete and Kapono for wide open 3 pointers. He was the accelerator on that team.

Calderon was the highly efficient backup PG who always has a PER just as good as Ford. While Calderon didn't drive as much, he was just as efficient of a playmaker and a far better outside shooter than Ford.

They were a flat out lethal 1 - 2 combo at the point that made the entire team better. So when they lost Ford for O'Neal ( because they didn't want to pay 2 PGs top dollar ), they thought Calderon could handle the full time duties. And he can. But they lost their identity as a team when the lost Ford.

I'll never forget the game in the 06 - 07 season, in which Ford and Calderon basically murdered this team in Atlanta. We couldn't stop either guy, especially Ford.

And I won't forget the game in the 07 - 08 season, in which JJ had 28 pts - 11 assists - 7 rebounds against the Raptors late in the season. A game which pretty much got us in the playoffs.

Like JJ, Bosh is a very good player. But also like JJ, he can't win anything without another star caliber player alongside him.

I agree with this and that's part of the point I'm making. I'm not that impressed by Bosh because he's a finesse PF with limitations. He doesn't play good defense. He gets good rebounds because he's one of the only rebounders on the team. He can score, but he's not enough of a scorer to carry a team. If your name is not Lebron, Kobe, or Wade then you're not going to be able to singlehandedly take a team anywhere. ANd even those three have had moments where they couldn't.

I remember TJ Ford meeting Al Horford. I think that was a life changing blow for Ford.

[EazyRoc]

Uhm...

I think it made that exceedingly clear when I said " Again, my question, why haven't Toronto been back to the playoffs since Ford left? Hell, they have had more talent. I mean, the way people love Calderon... and the fact that they were able to trade Ford for Oneal and Oneal for Marion.."

Anyway...

Didn't you suggest that Bosh got Toronto to the playoffs with very little help? It doesn't matter what state these guys (Oneal or Marion) were in, if You consider Calderon to be close to equivalent to Ford.. then having Oneal or Marion is having an extra player who can score.

BTW.

For the 41 games that they had Oneal he was a 13.5, 7, and 2 player.

For the 30 games that they had Marion he was a 14.3, 8.3, and 2 player.

AND

For somebody who "couldn't hit the ocean standing on a beach".....

It's funny that Marion hit a better FG% than Bosh as a Raptor??

EZ, you're a cool dude. Stop leading your arguments with faulty premises. This is not emotional.

Diesel, you've done it again! You conveniently dodge my question, after I answered yours as requested. So, I'll try it again. Who on the 06-07 and 07-08 Raptors squad would you consider to be better than our supporting cast during our 2 playoff runs ?

I'm tired of saying the same things over and over. Who on our squad would you trade straight up for either Marion or O'Neal ?

Marion didn't score off jump shooting, I can bet that. We also had a few players in our supporting cast averaging 14 ppg or better. Not just 1.

How am I leading my arguments with faulty premises ? I put the facts on the table. Chris Bosh had less talent in both of his playoff runs than we had in ours. If you think otherwise, prove me wrong. That doesn't mean counter with an irrelevant question.

Edited August 4, 2009 by EazyRoc

[EazyRoc]

Let's see. That magical season of 06-07 that propeled Bosh into "superstardom" also saw Sam Mitchell win coach of the year, I don't know why seeing as all he coached was Bosh on that team, Jerry Colangelo win executive of the year, I don't know why seeing as he didn't actually acquire anyone worth a damn but two all-rookie first teamers in Garbojosa and Bargnani, I don't know how but must have been an extremely weak draft year, and the arrival of one of the better pure point guards in the league TJ Ford, fresh from leading the Bucks back to their first playoff appearances since a guy named Ray was there. The team won 47 games and a division crown on their way to a 3rd seed. On the back of such a successful year for the franchise Chris Bosh made the 2nd team all-nba despite inferior individual statistics to Kevin Garnett and Carmelo because they already voted in one SF in Lebron and KG's team barely mustered 35 wins that year. All that success was for nought because despite drawing the inferior division foe with a .500 record in the New Jersey Nets, the team, especially Bosh, caved.

Following a season where Bosh averaged 22ppg, 10rpg, 1blk, on .49% shooting he went into his first playoffs and averaged 17ppg and 9rpg on 39% shooting. Now suprisingly to you his teammates all picked up their scoring averages by over 2 points, Calderon emerged as a force and TJ Ford picked up his regular season PER of 18 and pushed it to an amazing 27.3! Despite the Herculean efforts by the diminutive guard the team still fell 4-2.

That successful season was TJ Ford's healthiest and here's where we draw the parable. The next season, thanks to our resident Florida alum and other nagging injuries, Ford only played 51 games, started 26 because Mitchell wanted to tweak with his lineup and unsuprisingly that team won fewer games. The next season after that Ford is gone entirely and what do we see? Bosh has been consistent but apparently without others around him that didn't translate to wins now or even before Ford and others arrived. His most successful season all coincided with so many other factors but yea you can continue thinking Bosh is a superstar that can actually carry a team of scrubs, most of which are still in the league with freshly inked deals even.

Just answer one question for me and put your ego aside. Do you think the surrounding cast in the Raptors playoff runs, in all seriousness, was nearly as talented as our supporting cast ? From what I've watched and from the data I've seen, everything is in direct conflict with what you're trying to say. Don't get me wrong, Ford and Calderon are good players, and if I directly called them scrubs, I was just exaggerating. However, we have players better than them AND still have players better than anyone else on those Raptors teams.

[Diesel]

Diesel, you've done it again! You conveniently dodge my question, after I answered yours as requested. So, I'll try it again. Who on the 06-07 and 07-08 Raptors squad would you consider to be better than our supporting cast during our 2 playoff runs ?

I'm tired of saying the same things over and over. Who on our squad would you trade straight up for either Marion or O'Neal ?

Marion didn't score off jump shooting, I can bet that. We also had a few players in our supporting cast averaging 14 ppg or better. Not just 1.

How am I leading my arguments with faulty premises ? I put the facts on the table. Chris Bosh had less talent in both of his playoff runs than we had in ours. If you think otherwise, prove me wrong. That doesn't mean counter with an irrelevant question.

This was never the question or the point.

You said that Bosh was good enough to take a team to the playoffs by himself. There has been substantial proof that he's not.

Now to your subject change....

06-07 Raptors squad...

First and foremost give me TJ Ford's 14/8 with dribble penetration over Bibby's OG play.

Second Give me 6'3" Calderon and his 52% from the field over who ever plays BU PG for us..

Third , it's a small thing but give me Mo Peterson over Mo Evans.

Fourth, I'd like Garbajosa over our missing BU PF.

Next for your second straight subject change:

Give me Oneal for King Zaza.

Give me Marion for Marvin.

Lastly, your faulty premise was that Marion couldn't hit the ocean from the beach. Marion was a 14 point 48% scorer. That FG percentage was better than Bosh's. It's Ironic that you're making an argument for Bosh and trying to downplay Marion's ability to score when Marion scores at a better rate than Bosh?!?!

Edited August 4, 2009 by Diesel

[MaceCase]

Just answer one question for me and put your ego aside. Do you think the surrounding cast in the Raptors playoff runs, in all seriousness, was nearly as talented as our supporting cast ? From what I've watched and from the data I've seen, everything is in direct conflict with what you're trying to say. Don't get me wrong, Ford and Calderon are good players, and if I directly called them scrubs, I was just exaggerating. However, we have players better than them AND still have players better than anyone else on those Raptors teams.

Just ditto what Diesel said. I say to you that that team had a COY, a EOY, two all rookie first teamers, the great PG combo of Ford and Calderon, they brought in Parker who moved Mo Pete to the bench after he averaged 16points just the year before, had a 7 footer in Rasho just as good as Zaza and what is your response? I don't see how you can argue against a team with that many accomplishments in that one year and say there was no supporting cast. When you are literally playing close to a productive 11 man rotation, guess what, its going to be hard for any individual to put up larger overall stats platooning than it is for a guy playing 35 minutes straight at one position. I mean just look at the overall player stats and Rasho was 11th on that list averaging 6pp and 5rpg to go along with 1 block. For us we had Acie at 4ppg and 2apg. We may have a better quality starting 5 but they had a better quality 12 man roster to go along with their coach that got them working together and Colangelo who got him those players, downplay that all you want but all those factors matter in basketball.

[EazyRoc]

This was never the question or the point.

You said that Bosh was good enough to take a team to the playoffs by himself. There has been substantial proof that he's not.

Now to your subject change....

06-07 Raptors squad...

First and foremost give me TJ Ford's 14/8 with dribble penetration over Bibby's OG play.

Second Give me 6'3" Calderon and his 52% from the field over who ever plays BU PG for us..

Third , it's a small thing but give me Mo Peterson over Mo Evans.

Fourth, I'd like Garbajosa over our missing BU PF.

Next for your second straight subject change:

Give me Oneal for King Zaza.

Give me Marion for Marvin.

Lastly, your faulty premise was that Marion couldn't hit the ocean from the beach. Marion was a 14 point 48% scorer. That FG percentage was better than Bosh's. It's Ironic that you're making an argument for Bosh and trying to downplay Marion's ability to score when Marion scores at a better rate than Bosh?!?!

Thank you Diesel. You'd trade O'Neal for a back up center and Marion for someone I'm sure you consider to be the Hawks worst starter.

Since you think I'm changing the subject, and you say Bosh can't lead a team to the playoffs singehandedly, who can ?

Kobe, the best in the league, had Caron Butler (for one season) and Lamar Odom for that one and the rest. Then Luke Walton emerged for them that one year. He also had a solid roleplayer in Smush Parker.

Dwayne Wade had Beasley and Haslem. They also had O'Neal, who (though not all that great) filled a gaping hole for them. Mario Chalmers also played fairly well for a rookiee.

LeBron had a healthier big Z, Larry Hughes, Flip Murray, and Drew Gooden.

Even the best had some kind of supporting cast. However, none of those players (and Bosh included) had a supporting cast as talented as ours.

P.S. Just for your information, the overarching point is that Chris Bosh is a better basketball player than Joe Johnson. I wish we had way to conduct a national poll. I'm sure the results would be very interesting.

Edited August 4, 2009 by EazyRoc

[TheNorthCydeRises]

I gotta agree with Diesel on this one.

Even if you did a lateral swap of the 07 or 08 TOR playoff team to the 08 Hawk playoff team, you still have to take:

- Ford over Bibby

- Calderon over Law/Salim ( because that's who were the backup guards on the 07 playoff team )

- Mo Pete over Childress ( that could be argued either way though. I'll take Mo Pete because of his shooting ability. )

- Bargnani for Solomon Jones

- Garbajosa over Mario West

08 ATL Squad

G - Ford

G - JJ

F - Marvin

F - Smith

F/C - Horford

G - Calderon

G - Garbajosa

F - Peterson

F - Bargnani

C - Zaza

LOL . . . ummmmm . . . I think that squad still wins all of its home games vs Boston in the playoffs, and has a damn good shot to pull off at least one road win

Meanwhile, in Toronto:

C - Nesterovic

F - Bosh

F - Childress

G - Parker

G - Bibby

G - Delfino ( I think ) or Salim

G - Law

G/F - Joey Graham

F - Kapono

F/C - Solo

ISH . . .Toronto might not even make the playoffs with that squad. And if they did, they'd get swept ( unless Chill and Law played to their maximum potential . . . and if Salim played like Ben Gordon off the bench )

[EazyRoc]

I gotta agree with Diesel on this one.

Even if you did a lateral swap of the 07 or 08 TOR playoff team to the 08 Hawk playoff team, you still have to take:

- Ford over Bibby

- Calderon over Law/Salim ( because that's who were the backup guards on the 07 playoff team )

- Mo Pete over Childress ( that could be argued either way though. I'll take Mo Pete because of his shooting ability. )

- Bargnani for Solomon Jones

- Garbajosa over Mario West

08 ATL Squad

G - Ford

G - JJ

F - Marvin

F - Smith

F/C - Horford

G - Calderon

G - Garbajosa

F - Peterson

F - Bargnani

C - Zaza

LOL . . . ummmmm . . . I think that squad still wins all of its home games vs Boston in the playoffs, and has a damn good shot to pull off at least one road win

Meanwhile, in Toronto:

C - Nesterovic

F - Bosh

F - Childress

G - Parker

G - Bibby

G - Delfino ( I think ) or Salim

G - Law

G/F - Joey Graham

F - Kapono

F/C - Solo

ISH . . .Toronto might not even make the playoffs with that squad. And if they did, they'd get swept ( unless Chill and Law played to their maximum potential . . . and if Salim played like Ben Gordon off the bench )

Mo Pete wasn't better than Childress. Sorry.

I don't understand your lineups though, because that's not a lateral swap. In reality, it doesn't even matter. We can play what if's all day and night. The thing that stands out to me though is that most of the bench players on your "Atlanta" lineup were starters on the Raptors. I mean, think about the Raptors team without Bosh for a second. Besides Ford and Calderon, none of those guys would have started on any other playoff team in either years.

[Diesel]

Thank you Diesel. You'd trade O'Neal for a back up center and Marion for someone I'm sure you consider to be the Hawks worst starter.

At this stage in his career... yeah. Oneal is just injury prone. Can't trust that. Especially not in trade for Horf?

Marion on the other hand is just better than Marvin right now. I'd risk that.

I see you were quick to look at my take on Marvin without considering why I would do the Marion for Marvin trade.

If we were in a win right now situation this year.... Based on Marion's last year at Sf. He shot 48.8% from the field. He gather 8.3 rebounds, and he scored 14.3 points per game. That trumphs Marvin all over the place. Plus, he plays better defense and he's still more athletic. Marion is just too beastly inside for me not to consider him.

Since you think I'm changing the subject, and you say Bosh can't lead a team to the playoffs singehandedly, who can ?

Since you are changing the subject let me say that nobody in this age can. However, my problem with Bosh is that he's not a leader. Look at Joe in the playoffs against the Celtics games 4 and 6. That's a guy putting the team on his back when it counted and doing something.

In the playoffs, Bosh has yet to get passed the first round. IN his first playoffs, he averaged 39% from the field and got his point and rebounds. In the second, he scored 24 ppg. 9 rpg with 47% from the field and they lost 4 games to 1.

The bottom line is that Bosh is just a finesse Pf who doesn't play defense. He's good for the scoring but being a guy who can take over games on both ends... it will never happen.

Joe has his flaws too. Joe is not a penetrator so he doesn't get to the line as much as the elite. However, he does play aggressively down the stretch. He can take over a game.

[Diesel]

Mo Pete wasn't better than Childress. Sorry.

I don't understand your lineups though, because that's not a lateral swap.

Uhm...

It's a lateral swap because he exchanged our bench for their bench.

Are you saying that their bench is better than ours?

If so...

Case closed.

[EazyRoc]

No, he did more than just swap the bench. I'm not saying anything other than I don't understand what he's trying to say.

[EazyRoc]

At this stage in his career... yeah. Oneal is just injury prone. Can't trust that. Especially not in trade for Horf?

Marion on the other hand is just better than Marvin right now. I'd risk that.

I see you were quick to look at my take on Marvin without considering why I would do the Marion for Marvin trade.

If we were in a win right now situation this year.... Based on Marion's last year at Sf. He shot 48.8% from the field. He gather 8.3 rebounds, and he scored 14.3 points per game. That trumphs Marvin all over the place. Plus, he plays better defense and he's still more athletic. Marion is just too beastly inside for me not to consider him.

Since you are changing the subject let me say that nobody in this age can. However, my problem with Bosh is that he's not a leader. Look at Joe in the playoffs against the Celtics games 4 and 6. That's a guy putting the team on his back when it counted and doing something.

In the playoffs, Bosh has yet to get passed the first round. IN his first playoffs, he averaged 39% from the field and got his point and rebounds. In the second, he scored 24 ppg. 9 rpg with 47% from the field and they lost 4 games to 1.

The bottom line is that Bosh is just a finesse Pf who doesn't play defense. He's good for the scoring but being a guy who can take over games on both ends... it will never happen.

Joe has his flaws too. Joe is not a penetrator so he doesn't get to the line as much as the elite. However, he does play aggressively down the stretch. He can take over a game.

Thank you again, Diesel. One of the guys you brought up as second fiddle to Bosh is only comparable to our back up center.

I don't necessarily disagree with your logic behind wanting Marion over Marvin. I personally don't, but it's not a terrible idea. The point was that..the guy you are touting to be the big help that Bosh was supposed to have is only comparable to, in what I assume to be your opinion, our worst starter. Meaning, that we have 3 other starters who are better than Raptors' second best player.

Let's not forget about Josh Smith's spectacular performances in both those games. Other than Joe's spectacular takeover of the 4th quarter, Josh Smith played just as well. Josh Smith was playing like a legitimate star.

Joe is a good player, but he's not taking over the game on both ends either.

Edited August 5, 2009 by EazyRoc