58 Responses to “Joe Johnson is good, not great”

[EazyRoc]

Yeah but it was EzROc's take that Bosh did it with less talent. That's right less talent. In the time sense they went to the playoffs, they have had Jermaine Oneal and Shawn Marion.. and NOTHING.

You can't just ignore Ford's 14/8.

That's because he did. We had way more talent in our last 2 playoff runs than those Raptors teams had. I don't even understand how you could argue that. T.J. Ford was their second leading scorer with 14 ppg in their 06-07 season. Their third best player was Anthony Parker. Their 07-08 run, they had Bosh, Ford, and an emerging Calderon. Now, I might be a little bit biased, but I really think our lineup from our playoff runs were thoroughly more talented than either of those playoff teams.

Also..Jermaine O'Neal is beyond washed up and so is Shawn Marion. I don't even know why you mentioned them like they were really talented. It's a real weak attempt to prove an invalid point. Nice try, though.

Edited August 4, 2009 by EazyRoc

[EazyRoc]

Last I checked TJ Ford led the Bucks to the playoffs too before joining Toronto where they produced the same number of wins we did last season and won the Atlantic division only to get bounced by the 6th seed Nets in the first round 4-2. The next season they had a .500 record as the 6th seed and fared worse in the playoffs losing to the Magic 4-1. Bosh is not better than Joe and he's not going to get any better, he is what he is. His stats haven't fluctuated up or down more than 1 over the last 4 seasons so he is consistent but not improving. Those Toronto teams had much better depth than we have ever had to go along with Bosh yet haven't produced the way our team has with Joe so I'll go ahead and give that notch to Joe.

Give me an Olympic gold medalist all day. There's a reason Bosh went and Joe didn't. There's a reason Bosh has been named to an All-NBA team, and Joe hasn't. There's also a reason Bosh has been to the last 4 All-Star games, and is still younger than Joe. I'll take an efficient 23/10 over Joe's numbers any day.

Since you claim that Toronto had more depth in their playoff runs than we did..prove it. Who did they have that was so much more talented than our 2nd, 3rd, and 4th best players ? Don't worry, I'll wait.

[MaceCase]

Give me an Olympic gold medalist all day. There's a reason Bosh went and Joe didn't. There's a reason Bosh has been named to an All-NBA team, and Joe hasn't. There's also a reason Bosh has been to the last 4 All-Star games, and is still younger than Joe. I'll take an efficient 23/10 over Joe's numbers any day.

Since you claim that Toronto had more depth in their playoff runs than we did..prove it. Who did they have that was so much more talented than our 2nd, 3rd, and 4th best players ? Don't worry, I'll wait.

Last I checked the east has always been starved for bigmen so being a big with any amount of talent will get you an allstar bid even if you play more like a SF, check out Rashard Lewis if you don't believe me. Bosh went to the Olympics and not Joe, hmm would that have anything to do with Joe competing with Wade, Kobe, DWill, Lebron, Carmelo and CP3 or Bosh competing with KG that pulled out and Amare who was supposed to be the starting Center next to Carmelo pulling out leaving only Dwight, who started, Boozer, who sucked, and Tayshaun Prince as the only "bigs" on that team? I'm pretty sure had any of the guards or SFs pulled out on their commitments like the bigs did and Joe would have been there. Bosh's only claim to fame in Beijing was getting laid out by the lesser Gasol.

As far as Toronto having more depth than us hmm lets see, they had a silver medal winner....coming off their bench. In 06-07 they had 10 players that have actually done something in this league or are atleast still in the league. Count it, 10 NBA calibre players. No Mario Wests, no Solomon Jones, no Acie Laws just an NBA champion in Rasho, a European Allstar and all rookie first teamer in Garbo, the number 1 pick and all rookie first teamer in Bargnani, another Euro champion in Parker, a guy who was averaging 16 points as a starter before being moved to bench because of all the depth in Mo Pete and it goes on. They had 9 players almost all averaging double digit points and an extra 2 averaging over 5ppg. So thats 11 players all scoring incase you lost count. They may not impress you individually but any team that can do that is a pretty good team especially considering in our first playoff year we only had 6 players even sniff double digit points and last season we upped that number up to 7 wow.......

And oh yea that 47 win team that won the Atlantic before getting knocked out the 1st round by 6th seeded division rival New Jersey also had Sam Mitchell win coach of the year that season. Hope I didn't keep you waiting too long.

[thescout5]

Joe is a good player but to win in the playoffs were going to need a great player. I forget what commentator said this but he mentioned that Joe is mainly an outside shooter and when his game is off the team can't score. Players like Kobe, Lebron when their not hitting outside they'll take you to the basket and score. If I could trade Joe for Bosh I would do it. You can't when in the playoffs from outside but rather inside is the key to winning. Anyway to answer the question JJ is a good player but he isn't great.

Joe is a good player but to win in the playoffs were going to need a great player. I forget what commentator said this but he mentioned that Joe is mainly an outside shooter and when his game is off the team can't score. Players like Kobe, Lebron when their not hitting outside they'll take you to the basket and score. If I could trade Joe for Bosh I would do it. You can't win in the playoffs from outside but rather inside is the key to winning. Anyway to answer the question JJ is a good player but he isn't great.

Edited August 4, 2009 by thescout5

[EazyRoc]

Last I checked the east has always been starved for bigmen so being a big with any amount of talent will get you an allstar bid even if you play more like a SF, check out Rashard Lewis if you don't believe me. Bosh went to the Olympics and not Joe, hmm would that have anything to do with Joe competing with Wade, Kobe, DWill, Lebron, Carmelo and CP3 or Bosh competing with KG that pulled out and Amare who was supposed to be the starting Center next to Carmelo pulling out leaving only Dwight, who started, Boozer, who sucked, and Tayshaun Prince as the only "bigs" on that team? I'm pretty sure had any of the guards or SFs pulled out on their commitments like the bigs did and Joe would have been there. Bosh's only claim to fame in Beijing was getting laid out by the lesser Gasol.

As far as Toronto having more depth than us hmm lets see, they had a silver medal winner....coming off their bench. In 06-07 they had 10 players that have actually done something in this league or are atleast still in the league. Count it, 10 NBA calibre players. No Mario Wests, no Solomon Jones, no Acie Laws just an NBA champion in Rasho, a European Allstar and all rookie first teamer in Garbo, the number 1 pick and all rookie first teamer in Bargnani, another Euro champion in Parker, a guy who was averaging 16 points as a starter before being moved to bench because of all the depth in Mo Pete and it goes on. They had 9 players almost all averaging double digit points and an extra 2 averaging over 5ppg. So thats 11 players all scoring incase you lost count. They may not impress you individually but any team that can do that is a pretty good team especially considering in our first playoff year we only had 6 players even sniff double digit points and last season we upped that number up to 7 wow.......

And oh yea that 47 win team that won the Atlantic before getting knocked out the 1st round by 6th seeded division rival New Jersey also had Sam Mitchell win coach of the year that season. Hope I didn't keep you waiting too long.

Say what you want. Bosh has a medal, Joe doesn't. He's proven himself in the league as a bonafide superstar. What do you have to say about an All NBA team berth ? Let me guess..KG and Amare pulled their names out of the running too ?

Rasho Nesterovic ? Al Horford was better and more effective for the Hawks playoff teams than Rasho. Garbo who ? I don't even know who that is. Is he still in the league ? Bargnani ? Bargnani averaged 12/4 on 43% shooting. Zaza Pachulia had more impact in games, especially in the playoffs. Anthony Parker ? He isn't better than Marvin. Hell, I wouldn't even say he's better than Childress. Mo Pete ? Mo Pete averaged 9 points shooting 42%. :lol6:

So basically, they had 5 players averaging double digits. Only 2 of those players averaged 45% or higher. Only 2 of those players averaged over 12 ppg. (06-07)

07-08, they had 2 players averaging over 12 points a game. Parker with 13 ppg, and you-know-who. They had 3 other players who averaged double digits, but 1 of those averaged under 40%.

You get an A for effort and an A+ for comedic relief. You know what's funny..is that you proved my point. None of those guys can hold Bibby or Josh Smith's jock strap. Marvin is way more talented than their 4th best player. Al Horford is way more talented than their 4th or 5th best player. Then you have Josh Childress and Zaza coming off the bench. Face it. No matter how you try to hype up the scrubs Bosh had, the Hawks had way more talent than the Raptors man.

Bibby, Josh, Marvin, Al, Childress, Pachulia (07-09) >>> T.J. Ford, Calderon, Parker, Peterson, Bargnani (from the Raptors' playoff runs)

I don't see how there's any disputing that.

[MaceCase]

Joe is a good player but to win in the playoffs were going to need a great player. I forget what commentator said this but he mentioned that Joe is mainly an outside shooter and when his game is off the team can't score. Players like Kobe, Lebron when their not hitting outside they'll take you to the basket and score. If I could trade Joe for Bosh I would do it. You can't when in the playoffs from outside but rather inside is the key to winning. Anyway to answer the question JJ is a good player but he isn't great.

Joe is a good player but to win in the playoffs were going to need a great player. I forget what commentator said this but he mentioned that Joe is mainly an outside shooter and when his game is off the team can't score. Players like Kobe, Lebron when their not hitting outside they'll take you to the basket and score. If I could trade Joe for Bosh I would do it. You can't win in the playoffs from outside but rather inside is the key to winning. Anyway to answer the question JJ is a good player but he isn't great.

The thing is with Bosh is that for a PF he's not an inside scorer. The guy only averaged 2 more points on inside scoring than Joe did, the remaining majority of his shots are jumpshots. There's a reason Shaq refered to him as "the Ru Paul of big men" because he is a finesse player through and through and giving Dirk a run for his money for softest big in the league, the only difference being that Dirk would never be considered best as a complimentary player. The Raptors tried to help Bosh out by giving him a real low post player to help him out with the part of his game that he is least willing to do but it didn' work out so apparently now they've scrapped playing in the low post entirely. I will give him one thing in that he gets to the FT line better than Joe does but overall he's not a better player than Joe is. Trading Joe for him doesn't solve any of our problems, people complain about Joe not being good enough to be the man but atleast he wants to be the man. You surely can't say the same about Bosh who is already becoming Carter 2.0 up in Toronto. . Don't get me wrong, Bosh is still a fantastic player but just like Joe he doesn't fit into that great player mold. Having both would be ideal but trading one for the other will only put us in that same boat of wanting more out of our star players.

[RedDawg#8]

In case yal forgot, Joe wasnt on the Olympic team because after he participated on the national team in 2006 he came back and had that season ending injury the next nba season. He decided to pull himself from team USA stating he wanted to make sure he was healthy enough to make it through the next full season.

Alot of players choose not to participate on team USA for this very reason. Kobe was the same way before he changed his mind at the last minute and joined this year.

So drop that Joe wasnt selected to the olympic team nonsense, he was on it and opted out. In fact, all the national team members from his 06 summer raved about him and his play stating he was a great asset who was the most versatile player they had.

Joe DOES have All-World talent

[MaceCase]

Say what you want. Bosh has a medal, Joe doesn't. He's proven himself in the league as a bonafide superstar. What do you have to say about an All NBA team berth ? Let me guess..KG and Amare pulled their names out of the running too ?

Rasho Nesterovic ? Al Horford was better and more effective for the Hawks playoff teams than Rasho. Garbo who ? I don't even know who that is. Is he still in the league ? Bargnani ? Bargnani averaged 12/4 on 43% shooting. Zaza Pachulia had more impact in games, especially in the playoffs. Anthony Parker ? He isn't better than Marvin. Hell, I wouldn't even say he's better than Childress. Mo Pete ? Mo Pete averaged 9 points shooting 42%. :lol6:

So basically, they had 5 players averaging double digits. Only 2 of those players averaged 45% or higher. Only 2 of those players averaged over 12 ppg. (06-07)

07-08, they had 2 players averaging over 12 points a game. Parker with 13 ppg, and you-know-who. They had 3 other players who averaged double digits, but 1 of those averaged under 40%.

You get an A for effort and an A+ for comedic relief. You know what's funny..is that you proved my point. None of those guys can hold Bibby or Josh Smith's jock strap. Marvin is way more talented than their 4th best player. Al Horford is way more talented than their 4th or 5th best player. Then you have Josh Childress and Zaza coming off the bench. Face it. No matter how you try to hype up the scrubs Bosh had, the Hawks had way more talent than the Raptors man.

Bibby, Josh, Marvin, Al, Childress, Pachulia (07-09) >>> T.J. Ford, Calderon, Parker, Peterson, Bargnani (from the Raptors' playoff runs)

I don't see how there's any disputing that.

So having a good starting 5 is better than having a decent 12 players on your roster? I really must be bad at math then. I guess when a team has the luxury of running 9-10 man rotations because they are so deep they are in actuality worse than a team running 7-8 players on heavy minutes. And cut the superstar nonsense, Bosh is no better than Joe in that regard thus his abject failure throughout most his career. And as I stated before in regards to his one more Allstar berth, his olympic berth and his all-NBA berth it's not as hard to garner that attention when you are up against a league starved for big men.

[Diesel]

That's because he did. We had way more talent in our last 2 playoff runs than those Raptors teams had. I don't even understand how you could argue that. T.J. Ford was their second leading scorer with 14 ppg in their 06-07 season. Their third best player was Anthony Parker. Their 07-08 run, they had Bosh, Ford, and an emerging Calderon. Now, I might be a little bit biased, but I really think our lineup from our playoff runs were thoroughly more talented than either of those playoff teams.

Also..Jermaine O'Neal is beyond washed up and so is Shawn Marion. I don't even know why you mentioned them like they were really talented. It's a real weak attempt to prove an invalid point. Nice try, though.

Again, my question, why haven't Toronto been back to the playoffs since Ford left? Hell, they have had more talent. I mean, the way people love Calderon... and the fact that they were able to trade Ford for Oneal and Oneal for Marion... They got more talent when you think about it... However, with Bosh still there... having more talent around him... he's been unable to sniff the playoffs. I think that makes the case that Bosh is not talented enough to carry a team to the playoffs.

[Diesel]

Say what you want. Bosh has a medal, Joe doesn't. He's proven himself in the league as a bonafide superstar.

Uhm... last time I looked, Christian Laettner had one of those too.

You know who else has Gold medals?

Luis Scola

Andres Nocioni

Carlos Delfino

Walter Herrmann

Fabricio Oberto

“Pepe” Sanchez - You know Pepe played for the Hawks. Couldn't make the team.

VIn Baker

Antonio McDyess

Shareef Abdur Rahim

Alexander Volkoff

Alvin Robertson

Waymond Tisdale - RIP.

Vern Fleming

I think that's enough. The case is made.

[thescout5]

Uhm... last time I looked, Christian Laettner had one of those too.

You know who else has Gold medals?

Luis Scola

Andres Nocioni

Carlos Delfino

Walter Herrmann

Fabricio Oberto

“Pepe” Sanchez - You know Pepe played for the Hawks. Couldn't make the team.

VIn Baker

Antonio McDyess

Shareef Abdur Rahim

Alexander Volkoff

Alvin Robertson

Waymond Tisdale - RIP.

Vern Fleming

I think that's enough. The case is made.

Finding capable big men is harder to find than a shooting guard. Bosh can't carry a team but if I were rebuilding the Hawks and Toronto offered Bosh for JJ I would do it.. Scoring would have to come from other positions but at least there would be a presence inside instead of a Tweener in Smoove and softy Marvin. Joe is a good player certainly not in the class of Wade,Lebron or Kobe.

[EazyRoc]

Again, my question, why haven't Toronto been back to the playoffs since Ford left? Hell, they have had more talent. I mean, the way people love Calderon... and the fact that they were able to trade Ford for Oneal and Oneal for Marion... They got more talent when you think about it... However, with Bosh still there... having more talent around him... he's been unable to sniff the playoffs. I think that makes the case that Bosh is not talented enough to carry a team to the playoffs.

I don't understand why you keep bringing up Marion and O'Neal. Marion couldn't hit the ocean standing on a beach. He was good when he was a super athlete, but as he's gotten older, he's not all that good. A good rebounder, yes. O'Neal is just washed up. Even then, they were only there for half of the season. Even still, Marion is not as good as Josh Smith, and Jermaine O'Neal might be as good Al Horford, who is our 4th or 5th best player. So other than both of those washed-up hasbeens, where is all the talent you keep talking about ? Calderon is a good point guard, but he's no standout player. You keep naming the same 2 players. What talent did they have in their playoff runs ? I've answered your question. Can you answer mine ?

Edited August 4, 2009 by EazyRoc

[EazyRoc]

Uhm... last time I looked, Christian Laettner had one of those too.

You know who else has Gold medals?

Luis Scola

Andres Nocioni

Carlos Delfino

Walter Herrmann

Fabricio Oberto

“Pepe” Sanchez - You know Pepe played for the Hawks. Couldn't make the team.

VIn Baker

Antonio McDyess

Shareef Abdur Rahim

Alexander Volkoff

Alvin Robertson

Waymond Tisdale - RIP.

Vern Fleming

I think that's enough. The case is made.

Allow me to clarify, since you seem to have misunderstood me. The point wasn't really that he had a gold medal, but that he played on the U.S. Olympic team. He wasn't an alternate, like Joe Johnson.

[EazyRoc]

So having a good starting 5 is better than having a decent 12 players on your roster? I really must be bad at math then. I guess when a team has the luxury of running 9-10 man rotations because they are so deep they are in actuality worse than a team running 7-8 players on heavy minutes. And cut the superstar nonsense, Bosh is no better than Joe in that regard thus his abject failure throughout most his career. And as I stated before in regards to his one more Allstar berth, his olympic berth and his all-NBA berth it's not as hard to garner that attention when you are up against a league starved for big men.

Give me 6 or 7 talented players over 8 or 9 scrubs. Your 5 "decent" players who still could not compare to our supporting cast. The rest of the Raptors team was far from spectacular, and probably wouldn't have gotten any PT in Atlanta.

Abject failure ? What do you have against Bosh ? You're obviously dreaming if you think Bosh's career has been a failure. So, are you now arguing that Bosh is not a superstar ? I can guarantee you more people know about Chris Bosh than Joe Johnson, and his team isn't even in this country. The league being starved for big men is no excuse. When has the league ever had excess big men ? It's just harder to find skilled big men like Bosh than it is to find wingmen like Johnson. The fact still remains, 4 out of his 6 years in the league, Bosh has been an All-Star. He averaged 23/11 in their first playoff run. He's going to get you 20+ points and 9+ rebounds. He puts up better numbers than Joe. You don't just stumble unto an All-NBA team.

[EazyRoc]

In case yal forgot, Joe wasnt on the Olympic team because after he participated on the national team in 2006 he came back and had that season ending injury the next nba season. He decided to pull himself from team USA stating he wanted to make sure he was healthy enough to make it through the next full season.

Alot of players choose not to participate on team USA for this very reason. Kobe was the same way before he changed his mind at the last minute and joined this year.

So drop that Joe wasnt selected to the olympic team nonsense, he was on it and opted out. In fact, all the national team members from his 06 summer raved about him and his play stating he was a great asset who was the most versatile player they had.

Joe DOES have All-World talent

Wrong. Getting injured might have hurt his chances, but he did not opt out. Joe just didn't make the final cut. They made him an alternate. Do your research.

Also, I'm not doubting that Joe is a talented player. He is a very talented player, but to say he's better than Bosh is crazy.

[EazyRoc]

Diesel..I would also like to add that Jermaine O'Neal and Shawn Marion weren't both on the team with Bosh. Bosh had O'Neal, then Marion.

[Diesel]

Allow me to clarify, since you seem to have misunderstood me. The point wasn't really that he had a gold medal, but that he played on the U.S. Olympic team. He wasn't an alternate, like Joe Johnson.

Christian Laettner, Vern Fleming, Waymond Tisdale, and Shareef played on the US Olympic team also. So did DC. That's not impressive. Who did Bosh have to beat out to be on that Olympic team??

JJ would have had to beat out: Paul, Wade, Lebron, Kobe to get a spot on the olympic team. What about Bosh? Let's see... KG = Injured. Duncan = Not American. Shaq = Injured. It turns out Bosh would have had to beat..... Rasheed Wallace? Solo could have probably made the cut.

[Diesel]

Diesel..I would also like to add that Jermaine O'Neal and Shawn Marion weren't both on the team with Bosh. Bosh had O'Neal, then Marion.

Uhm...

I think it made that exceedingly clear when I said " Again, my question, why haven't Toronto been back to the playoffs since Ford left? Hell, they have had more talent. I mean, the way people love Calderon... and the fact that they were able to trade Ford for Oneal and Oneal for Marion.."

Anyway...

Didn't you suggest that Bosh got Toronto to the playoffs with very little help? It doesn't matter what state these guys (Oneal or Marion) were in, if You consider Calderon to be close to equivalent to Ford.. then having Oneal or Marion is having an extra player who can score.

BTW.

For the 41 games that they had Oneal he was a 13.5, 7, and 2 player.

For the 30 games that they had Marion he was a 14.3, 8.3, and 2 player.

AND

For somebody who "couldn't hit the ocean standing on a beach".....

It's funny that Marion hit a better FG% than Bosh as a Raptor??

EZ, you're a cool dude. Stop leading your arguments with faulty premises. This is not emotional.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Diesel, the problem is that people seem to forget why that Toronto team won. They won, not only because of Bosh, but also because of Ford and Calderon. People seem to forget just how great of a duo they collectively were.

Ford was the relentless penetrator that you had to try to stop from getting into the lane. If you collapsed on Ford, he'd kick it out to guys like Parker, Mo Pete and Kapono for wide open 3 pointers. He was the accelerator on that team.

Calderon was the highly efficient backup PG who always has a PER just as good as Ford. While Calderon didn't drive as much, he was just as efficient of a playmaker and a far better outside shooter than Ford.

They were a flat out lethal 1 - 2 combo at the point that made the entire team better. So when they lost Ford for O'Neal ( because they didn't want to pay 2 PGs top dollar ), they thought Calderon could handle the full time duties. And he can. But they lost their identity as a team when the lost Ford.

I'll never forget the game in the 06 - 07 season, in which Ford and Calderon basically murdered this team in Atlanta. We couldn't stop either guy, especially Ford.

And I won't forget the game in the 07 - 08 season, in which JJ had 28 pts - 11 assists - 7 rebounds against the Raptors late in the season. A game which pretty much got us in the playoffs.

Like JJ, Bosh is a very good player. But also like JJ, he can't win anything without another star caliber player alongside him.

[jy23]

Finding capable big men is harder to find than a shooting guard. Bosh can't carry a team but if I were rebuilding the Hawks and Toronto offered Bosh for JJ I would do it.. Scoring would have to come from other positions but at least there would be a presence inside instead of a Tweener in Smoove and softy Marvin. Joe is a good player certainly not in the class of Wade,Lebron or Kobe.

How does Bosh change this? Have you ever watched the man play? If you're calling Marv a softy you'll be calling him the hulk when Bosh gets here! Yes he has height but he is NOT a big man by any means!